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hello all. how are you all? I am building up my army...I play Tau, and I really want to incorporate Vespid Stingwings into it. They are one of the reasons I chose to play Tau...I guess all I am asking is...What are some good ways to use the Vespid Stingwinngs? And what is a good way to field them?



Thank you all for your time

Well, they're great MEq killers if you can get close enough - the problem is that your opponent knows this and will target them, and they're not that tough to kill.

So I guess keep them in cover as much as poss, live with the fact that they'll be a suicide unit, perhaps even use them as a deliberate distraction in the hope of reducing fire at the rest of your advancing army.

They are Fleet, and the Neutron Blaster is assault. So they have a strike range of 18". Their stats are lower than marines, however they do have higher initiative.

If you have the range, you can get in close, fire into the marines, and then assault, hitting before the marines do. Against normal marines (not terminators, or assault marines) they should be able to destroy or at least seriously cripple any unit.

What praetordave said. It takes a lot of practice, but stick to cover and choose your targets carefully, and avoid flamers/ignores cover weapons at all costs. Provided that the unit is a tactical/devestator squad, etc. (I.E. not assault spec'd) you should be able to clean out the remnants by charging.

Actually, each Vespid kills .43 Marines between their Blaster and CC, assuming the Marines don't have cover. The best case scenario for the Vespids has them trading 182 points for 64.

More likely, the Marines will have cover and the Vespids make .22 kills a model. That's 182 points for 32.

Vespids can't make up their mind, so end up doing poorly in all respects. They can be effective at very low points where you can't afford the buy-in for Crisis suits dedicated to anti-MEQ. That is really niche though, and you're better off just trying to fit the Crisis suits in.

Vespids are all but useless i'm afraid. Since this is coverhammer, whatever you're shooting at is likely to have a 4+ cover save. Vespids are also BS3 and required to be in counter-assault range for most enemies when firing.

As DarkHound has said, they are extremely innefficient at shooting. A basic squad of 3 + strain leader puts out 4 BS3 shots, so vs 10 marines you get 2 hits, 1.334 wounds and assuming a 4+ cover save, 0.667 dead marines.

That's 70pts spent on killing 15pts. Either way, unless those marines only had 1 marine left or were at 4 men strong and failed their morale check when they took the casualty, you're looking at having a face full of rapid fired bolters or chainswords coming at you next turn.

They can be effective at very low points where you can't afford the buy-in for Crisis suits dedicated to anti-MEQ.

Minimum Vespid Squad - 70pts
Crisis Suit w/ MT/PR/MP - 62pts

That one suit has less fire-power, but costs less, has a longer effective range, is easier to hide and is arguably more survivable. He also puts out close to the same shots as the vespid with better strength, and only the missile pod giving a better save if the enemy is in cover.

I see three possible ways of fixing vespids in the next codex update

1. Bump them up to Str and T 4. That way they can go toe to toe with marines

2. Give them 2 attacks base. That way their lower stats are balanced by their multitude of attacks

3. Make the neutron blaster longer range (say 24"?). That way they can kill marines more effectively at range.

Any one of these would, IMHO, make vespids a viable option, instead of one of those "it could have been good" options.

Thank you everyone again. You have all been a great help and I really appreciate your time to help out a newbie.

Here is how I run Vespids. Take a squad of 10, the max unit size, with a strain leader. Fly them right next to a squad of marines and open fire. The marines will not get cover saves, as you are within 2". If any survive the shooting, then assault them. You will probably wipe the marines and end up in cover.

When used carefully, and properly supported by other troops they are playable. With the strain leader they can use marker lights to boost ballistic skill.

spaceelf wrote:Here is how I run Vespids. Take a squad of 10, the max unit size, with a strain leader. Fly them right next to a squad of marines and open fire. The marines will not get cover saves, as you are within 2". If any survive the shooting, then assault them. You will probably wipe the marines and end up in cover.

When used carefully, and properly supported by other troops they are playable. With the strain leader they can use marker lights to boost ballistic skill.

oooooh.....very nice...I might have to steal that tactic...lol...becuz my friends play ultramarines and necrons. mwahahahaha! XD

Every Tau player I've talked to has always said Vespids are trash and never worth taking.

So don't expect to win if you're taking them.

Destroyer wrote:Every Tau player I've talked to has always said Vespids are trash and never worth taking.

So don't expect to win if you're taking them.

just because i can...i will buy them...and win with them. do not bring ur necron garbage on my thread...if you have nothing useful to contribute...then dont contribute at all. you soulless automoton

The marines will not get cover saves, as you are within 2".

I've just flicked through the rulebook and cannot find this rule. The only one like it is models inside area terrain firing out, in your scenario they are firing in. Can you quote a page where this rule can be found?

As for taking a full squad of vespids... let's run the numbers vs a squad of marines:

9 Vespids + 1 Strain Leader = 166pts
10 Marines = 150pts

Since they are all you'd kill with this tactic, you're paying 16pts more for a squad that is fragile and a one-shot in this circumstance.

Also, to have this tactic work, you'd need a way of getting to 2" close to the squad, which means you'd need to be 14" away and would've had to be in shooting range of the marines, which means you'd have had to be lucky and not taken any casualties.

Avatar 720 wrote:
As for taking a full squad of vespids... let's run the numbers vs a squad of marines:

9 Vespids + 1 Strain Leader = 166pts
10 Marines = 150pts

Try that math again. 90 pts+(16*5)= 170. And thats without any upgrades, which can push a squad over 200 points. So the Vespids are cheaper than a marine squad, but not by a terrible amount.

I actually have run them successfully. Lots of people at my FLGS run space marine bikes. I use pathfinders to remove the cover and boost the BS for a Vespid squad camping out in nearby cover. As bikes are not usually in cover, the vespids have had a good amount of kills with S5 Ap3 vs T5 bikers.

4TheGraeterGood wrote:

Destroyer wrote:Every Tau player I've talked to has always said Vespids are trash and never worth taking.

So don't expect to win if you're taking them.

just because i can...i will buy them...and win with them. do not bring ur necron garbage on my thread...if you have nothing useful to contribute...then dont contribute at all. you soulless automoton

But the point is that they're absolutely horrible. He's not trying to make you feel bad, he's stating the truth.

PraetorDave wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:
As for taking a full squad of vespids... let's run the numbers vs a squad of marines:

9 Vespids + 1 Strain Leader = 166pts
10 Marines = 150pts

Try that math again. 90 pts+(16*5)= 170. And thats without any upgrades, which can push a squad over 200 points. So the Vespids are cheaper than a marine squad, but not by a terrible amount.

I think you should try the maths again; last time I looked marines (whether Chaos, Grey Hunters etc.) were 15pts, not 16. If we include the sergeant then it still brings them out 1pt cheaper than vespids, and yes that is without upgrades, since upgrades complicate the matter.

If we include upgrades, then why not include other units? What is the point of pitting 10 vespids against 10 marines if that scenario will never happen? Upgrades on the marines is more realistic, but then again so is including the rest of the army. Having 10 vespids go against 10 marines is all well and good until to take into account the fact that neither army is simply just 10 Vespids and 10 Marines. As I stated, to get into 2" the vespids would need to be 14" away from the marines, which gives the marines at least 1 turn of shooting against them if the marines player wasn't stupid with placement. With that in mind, do you think that those 10 vespids will be intact when they arrive? They have T4 and a 5+ AS; my guess is that they won't.

After the army, we have to bear in mind combat squadding. That 10 man unit is likely to become two 5-man units, which means the vespids are now killing 75-90pts (without upgrades) of marines with their shooting, and facing return fire next turn, which dramatically reduces their usefullness.

Do you see where i'm going here? Point for point, vespids are worse than marines, but once you start piling on upgrades to make them seem better, you have to start taking into account other factors; you cannot simply pick and choose what the marines have in order to suit a 'vs' argument.

They are actually really good at being hidden behind a building and acting almost like a deterrant for assault MEQs

If you hide them near your fire warriors then as soon as the assaulters get close, jump them over the building and with combined fire(especially from those ST5 AP3 weapons) the enemy is generally going to be toast. You can always assault the survivors as well.

A bit expensive to have vespids do what 2x the amount in kroot will do for less cost...

And with the amount of bodies that Kroot provide, they can tarpit too! And with their stealth abilities, they can stick around for a while too! And with them being scoring, they can cap too!

Really, Vespids just plain suck. They have nothing that other units in the codex do better, and they fill no specific niche of their own.

crazyK wrote:I actually have run them successfully. Lots of people at my FLGS run space marine bikes. I use pathfinders to remove the cover and boost the BS for a Vespid squad camping out in nearby cover. As bikes are not usually in cover, the vespids have had a good amount of kills with S5 Ap3 vs T5 bikers.

Crisis suits would do the same, though, probably better when armed with plasma rifle and missile pod because of higher S weapons.

And cheaper. And more mobile.

Fafnir wrote:And with the amount of bodies that Kroot provide, they can tarpit too! And with their stealth abilities, they can stick around for a while too! And with them being scoring, they can cap too!

Really, Vespids just plain suck. They have nothing that other units in the codex do better, and they fill no specific niche of their own.

I'm not so sure about using kroot as a tarpit. Yeah you can put a lot of bodies in their units. But w/ LD 6 they will run the first time they lose combat. Add in the fact that they are I3 and they will likely be Swept by any marine unit they engage. W/ Kroot it is really a win or die scenario. In order to tarpit you need to be either fearless (this is bad because you would double the casualties you lost combat by) or have some sort of rule helping you pass a LD check (stubborn LD 8 or 9).

That aside I would agree that kroot are a far superior choice to vespids. I use a small 70pt unit of kroot as a distraction in most games. The unit is not w/o its probems. As a squad of 10 kroot will struggle against a 5 man tactical squad w/ no cc upgrades. Other uses I have found for this unit is to infiltrate them to protect my flank in spearhead if my enemy has outflanking infantry or bikes (deploy at max coherency along short board edge). In a pitched battle game I can use them in a similar manner by deploying center table and stringing them along the center of the table to form an anti snikrot or wolf scout wall. This tactic would probably work better w/ a 20 kroot (20 kroot could also block off an entire short board edge giving you a 1 in 3 chance of killing an outflanking bike or infantry unit if the unit is intact when they arrive.

Tarpit is probably the wrong word; they work more like a speed-bump. At 70pts for 10, they can stand by your FWs (remember, Kroot basically have AP6 bolters, so they can take pot-shots) and jump into combat with anything that gets close, giving you time to pull your fire warriors out or send in a devilfish to extract them.

Never expect your kroot to be anything more than a nuisance to the enemy; they're not made to kill things. If you want killy kroot, give them a few hounds to thin numbers a bit. A squad of 10 Kroot and 5 Hounds only costs 100pts, and if you outflank them, you can really give a heavy weapons squad a shock, since they're usually 5-man squads with little or no combat upgrades.

Anyway, we're digressing from the topic a bit here, basically:

Vespids are highly, highly situational (no cover on the board? lots of small MEQs overloaded with upgrades? No combat ability on the enemy side? Vespids would rock then; deep strike them down and watch sparks fly; but how often does that happen?) and in most cases are out-performed by cheaper and more specialised + survivable units (crisis suits) or cheaper and more numerous units (kroot).

Avatar 720 wrote:

The marines will not get cover saves, as you are within 2".

I've just flicked through the rulebook and cannot find this rule. The only one like it is models inside area terrain firing out, in your scenario they are firing in. Can you quote a page where this rule can be found?

As for taking a full squad of vespids... let's run the numbers vs a squad of marines:

9 Vespids + 1 Strain Leader = 166pts
10 Marines = 150pts

Since they are all you'd kill with this tactic, you're paying 16pts more for a squad that is fragile and a one-shot in this circumstance.

Also, to have this tactic work, you'd need a way of getting to 2" close to the squad, which means you'd need to be 14" away and would've had to be in shooting range of the marines, which means you'd have had to be lucky and not taken any casualties.

Seconded: I don't think the rules support the posters position. I don't see any rule claiming you ignore cover if you get within 2" of your target unit. As such, 50% of the wounding hits would be negated by cover.

As for the OP: Vespid simply are not worth it, sadly. If they were considerably less points, it would be worth revisiting. Otherwise, save your money and look for other options.

Fafnir wrote:

4TheGraeterGood wrote:

Destroyer wrote:Every Tau player I've talked to has always said Vespids are trash and never worth taking.

So don't expect to win if you're taking them.

just because i can...i will buy them...and win with them. do not bring ur necron garbage on my thread...if you have nothing useful to contribute...then dont contribute at all. you soulless automoton

But the point is that they're absolutely horrible. He's not trying to make you feel bad, he's stating the truth.

I know...i was just being a butthole. lol. but some of the people on the forum are saying that they are not all that bad...you just need to learn to field them

My previous statement about cover was incorrect. It is a rule that is used where I game, and I assumed that it was in the book.

I also do not want to give the impression that I think vespids are good. They are probably the worst unit in the book. I was simply stating how I use them.

Cover saves are totally dependent on the type of terrain that is used by your group. If you play with lots of area terrain, or low wall sections, then cover is easy to get. This is obviously bad for vespids. However, if you just have true line of sight terrain, then it may be possible to deny cover saves by careful positioning.

One last point is that vespids can deep strike. This can sometimes catch an opponent off guard.

Avatar 720 wrote:
I think you should try the maths again; last time I looked marines (whether Chaos, Grey Hunters etc.) were 15pts, not 16. If we include the sergeant then it still brings them out 1pt cheaper than vespids, and yes that is without upgrades, since upgrades complicate the matter..

C:SM are 170 for 10. No upgrades. Averages out to 17 ponts per marine. First 5 are 90 points, second 5 are 80. The sarge is extra 10 points is the reason. Taking that out, it means that they are 16 points. It also says that in their entry. C:SM probably pay the extra amount over what they used to because of free grenades, free special weapon, free heavy weapon.

Other chapters have different costs, for various reasons that I won't even guess at.

4TheGraeterGood wrote:I know...i was just being a butthole. lol. but some of the people on the forum are saying that they are not all that bad...you just need to learn to field them

It's the same thing as saying that the Callidus can be good if you field it properly. Sure, you can kill a few things, but the investment involved in doing it is far from worth it when you consider the outcome.

Crap unit is crap. Vespids rank amoung some of the worst units in the game.

Fafnir wrote:

4TheGraeterGood wrote:I know...i was just being a butthole. lol. but some of the people on the forum are saying that they are not all that bad...you just need to learn to field them

It's the same thing as saying that the Callidus can be good if you field it properly. Sure, you can kill a few things, but the investment involved in doing it is far from worth it when you consider the outcome.

Crap unit is crap. Vespids rank amoung some of the worst units in the game.

Yep, right there next to Aun'va