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Just thought of this...and it might need to be said.

Grey Knights never were a HtH army up to this point.

With rumours suggesting that they're holding onto their stormbolters, and being cheaper, it doesnt suggest that they're going to be some HtH terror. Without access to army-wide FNP they're just not going to cut it against Nob units, Thunderwolves, Death Company, T-hamm terminators.

I think Grey Knight armies are going to have to continue to rely on shooting in order to have a hope of being effective.

Doesnt leave much room for a 200pt stormraven does it? You're better off dumping points into Purgation squads or whatever else you can get a psycannon out of.

Either that or rather than one 200pt stormraven, instead two Plasmabacks and have some points left over. Something shooty GK lists hadnt had before.

Just saying, Grey Knights WERE a shooty army.

None of the rumours suggest any SERIOUS assault power that's priced right. We're still looking at Stormbolter marines with power weapons.

Doesnt leave much room for an assault transport, especially in an elite list where points may be tight.

So a Nemesis Force Weapon is a gun now?

Nobody ever said that.

Despite Nemesis Weapons...Grey Knights are a shooty army..not a hth one.

WS 5? Assault 2 guns? +2 S weapons standard on all GK units that are also power weapons for higher rank? If GK isn't an assault army, then I'm in bizarro world.

Luke_Prowler wrote:WS 5? Assault 2 guns? +2 S weapons standard on all GK units that are also power weapons for higher rank? If GK isn't an assault army, then I'm in bizarro world.

Ask anyone who wins with them...they're not.

All those fancy stats and added str doesnt mean a whole lot at initiative 4 when you dont have FNP and are outnumbered 4to1.

Makes for a decent showing for themselves on the defence...it's CRAP on offense...specially w/o a charge bonus.

I mean really, is it that hard to figure?

Deadshane1 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:WS 5? Assault 2 guns? +2 S weapons standard on all GK units that are also power weapons for higher rank? If GK isn't an assault army, then I'm in bizarro world.

Ask anyone who wins with them...they're not.

All those fancy stats and added str doesnt mean a whole lot at initiative 4 when you dont have FNP and are outnumbered 4to1.

Makes for a decent showing for themselves on the defence...it's CRAP on offense...specially w/o a charge bonus.

I mean really, is it that hard to figure?

As someone who plays, and wins, with Grey Knights, I think I qualify to disagree.

In the highlighted statement, I assume you meant to put an OR somewhere in there, because to my knowledge there is no army that is both >int 4 and can out number you 4 to 1 , and with a 3+ armor save you'll be making most attacks anyway and if the unit has a power weapon then FNP wouldn't matter anyway.

I'm not saying that GK are assault only, because they can play both styles easily, but you negate a lot of the army's advantages playing shooting only

To be fair Grey Knight have ended up as more of a shooty army than they used to be, mostly as a result of 5th edition dynamics and an outdated codex which forces you to take certain units to be competitive. Certainly they were originally designed as a close combat army and this fits with the fluff as well, Grey Knights are supposed to be a step above Space Marines. The Storm Raven gives them plenty of options and definitely will be a good fit, its very customisable and basically acts like a faster, less armoured Land Raider.

However considering at the moment we have absolutely no idea on how many points everything is going to be its stupid to make sweeping generalisations and basically write the Storm Raven off. We have some idea of whats going to be in the codex, but exact stuff like points very rarely become known until right before the release and they are ultimately the main balancing factor. Given how well balanced all the 5th edition codices have been so far I'm expecting the Storm Raven and everything else in the codex to be very competitive.

Grey Knight have no unit that can pwn dedicated assault units in CC.

Dreadnoughts CRUSH any unit in CC. With NOTHING in the army ready to fight them in HtH.

They cannot handle hordes in CC.

I.E. They do not EXCEL in CC. While they are competant, with the lack of multiple attacks, charge bonuses, power weapons on basic troops, FNP, higher initiative They just dont excel.

Now, if you're pwning fools with Grey Knight CC, kudo's to you, but the simple fact is that most any codex out there can bring a HtH unit that will easily kill a Grey Knight unit for the same expenditure of points.

All you have to do is get an Ironclad in CC with one of your "awesome" CC expert Grey Knights and you're DONE. What're you gonna do? Plant a Melta Bomb? Cute. Yea, yea...Thunderhammer Termies. Too bad you didnt get a Sheild upgrade like DA's and BT's. Say goodbye to the expensive Terminators.

Sad when a simple Ironclad can bust your entire battle plan if it goes to CC.


Shooting is different, with access to targetters, Shrouding, Psybolts, psycannons and SB's as basic weaponry, Knights CAN be an annoying and very real threat at range.

It's pretty well known across the tournament scene and competetive players anywhere that Grey Knights are a rough army to play. If you're serious about playing them and you're not playing Multiple Lascannon Landraiders and as many guys on foot shooting bullets for as long as possible b4 hth that you're doing it wrong.

You kill people in HtH with Knights? Congrats on pwning Noobs. Try playing people that know 40k.

Yes, clearly the only way I win is because I only fight against weaker foes, not because of tactics or proper use of terrain and deployment. I'll admit I don't play tournament levels, because I don't like playing against WAAC gamers who has an ego to stroke (and I apologize to those who aren't like that, but those kind of guys ruin the game for me). Now I have to repeat, I'm not saying that Grey knights are only good at assaulting, because I'd be lying if I said I didn't use the shootier elements of the codex, but what I'm trying to do is disprove is that your claim that that they can't assault.

Just a comment to Deadshane - based on your arguments as to "why GK are not HtH combat oriented, normal marines would not be either -

And following the same logic, neither armies would be a shooty army as well as the don't "excel" in this area. Face it a guard can outshoot the hell out of either GK or Marines.

I play GK as well, and there is usually a mix in there, some shooty, HTH, etc...but the tactics and how you use the army matter most (of course, i don't often win with GK - usually draw, but i win more often than not with my marines...

This might be the most hairebrained argument I've heard in a long time. Congrats.

Deadshane1 wrote:With rumours suggesting that they're holding onto their stormbolters, and being cheaper, it doesnt suggest that they're going to be some HtH terror. Without access to army-wide FNP they're just not going to cut it against Nob units, Thunderwolves, Death Company, T-hamm terminators.

Have you read the FNP rules? All of those units can take a plethora of weapons that can negate FNP, so it's largely irrelevant.

I think Grey Knight armies are going to have to continue to rely on shooting in order to have a hope of being effective.

Doesnt leave much room for a 200pt stormraven does it? You're better off dumping points into Purgation squads or whatever else you can get a psycannon out of.

Yes, because a platform with various configurations of 2 heavy weapons, and S8 AP1 missiles, and optional defensive weapons, with POTMS, has no value in a shooting army.

This must be some kind of record. Someone is up in arms over the inclusion of a unit in a codex that will be released in ~3 months time. Mind telling me how you know that the SR will be a bad unit in the Dh codex? It might be the most OP combo ever seen for all we know.

How exactly is your dread getting to my PAGK? I Have som IST with a couple of meltas to greet him before he can charge.

GK terminators are beasts. PAGK are beasts. You are looking at this one dimensionally.

Hordes kill them in combat? Why was the horde not double infernused before it charged you? That levels the playing field.

Are they a dedicated deathstar? No, not really. They are, however, very good in combat.

If you aren't concerned with a squad of PAGK firing their stormbolters into you before charging with their WS5 S6 attacks, then there isn't much I can say to change your mind.

I have played GK for years, and I shoot then assault. Both work well in a properly build AND RUN list.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Yes, clearly the only way I win is because I only fight against weaker foes, not because of tactics or proper use of terrain and deployment. I'll admit I don't play tournament levels, because I don't like playing against WAAC gamers who has an ego to stroke (and I apologize to those who aren't like that, but those kind of guys ruin the game for me).

So you argue the "Ard" nature of Grey Knight CC, yet freely admit that you dont have the wide and competetive base of tournament gamers to draw experience from?

You just neutered your entire arguement there bra.

Just because your the big fish in your little pond don't go thinking that things are the same all over.

I beleive Deadshane went undefeated at Adepticon 09 using this army.....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Deadshane1%27s_Grey_Knights_%2709

...and these tactics...

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214

...pretty much the ONLY Grey Knight tactica ever put out that meant anything.

Oh, wait...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/SO_YOU_WANNA_PLAY_PURE_GREY_KNIGHTS:_a_tactica_for_the_masochistic

...written by DS while giving credit to the above "water warrior" tactica. Both are a little dated considering the 5e game today, BUT suggest that he might know what he's talking about given that he's a tourney player with a wide base of opponents to draw experience from and enough interest in Grey Knights to write his own tactica.



...what have you done besides play some local yocals?

As for the rest of you guys that think Grey Knights are a HtH force to be feared. You all make me laugh, you need to get out and play some 40k....against someone other than your 9yo brother.

I run Grey Knights a lot, and I've found them pretty damned solid in close combat. The trick is making sure a manageable chunk of the enemy arrives, and with so many transport and deep striking armies that's where Grey Knights start to suffer. The trick I've found is you need your Grey Knights doing both shooting and smacking to win.

A five man squad of Grey Knights pumps out as much firepower as a standard ten man squad of Marines over any distance but 12 inches, and retains it's mobility regardless of the distance. So you use it. You shoot up a squad, then fall back. Or if fighting shooty armies, movie fowards. The volume of mobile firepower a Grey Knight army has is quite impressive.

So far, it's worked fairly well for me, but I do feel you need both elements to make Grey Knights work. Shoot up enemies as much as possible, then chop them up. So, really, I'd say Grey Knights are niether an especially shooty army nor a closecombat one, but they do both well enough that between the two they can win. Or at least, could before Codex Creep beat the gak out of them.

As for Stormravens...I'm looking at them more as transport hunters than actual transports, I suspect, although that is useful. My Dreads tend to go Lascannon/Missle Launchers, or Lascannon/Close Combat, so I'm usually happy letting an opponent come get me.

Commander Endova wrote:
Have you read the FNP rules? All of those units can take a plethora of weapons that can negate FNP, so it's largely irrelevant.

Have you played 40k? You DO know that FNP is one of the things that makes units badass at HtH right? Blood Angel Sanguinary High priests, Death Company, Marine Biker Command Squads, Nob Bikers, Incubi with a pain token, what do all these scary HtH units have in common? How surprising! FNP!

He's comparing Grey Knight HtH ability against those units...not pitting them against them. You're taking what he said out of context.

Stop your misdirection and quit pretending that FNP isnt important to HtH units, that notion is just ridiculous.

Yes, because a platform with various configurations of 2 heavy weapons, and S8 AP1 missiles, and optional defensive weapons, with POTMS, has no value in a shooting army.

It's an Assault Transport...with guns. If you're not using it as such you're using it wrong. It's main ability is to quickly deploy a dread and a squad in an enemies face...sometimes after moving flat out.

Grey Knights right now are as bad at shooting as they are in assaults. Really, the point is moot.

Beerfart wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:
Have you read the FNP rules? All of those units can take a plethora of weapons that can negate FNP, so it's largely irrelevant.

Have you played 40k? You DO know that FNP is one of the things that makes units badass at HtH right? Blood Angel Sanguinary High priests, Death Company, Marine Biker Command Squads, Nob Bikers, Incubi with a pain token, what do all these scary HtH units have in common? How surprising! FNP!

He's comparing Grey Knight HtH ability against those units...not pitting them against them. You're taking what he said out of context.

Stop your misdirection and quit pretending that FNP isnt important to HtH units, that notion is just ridiculous.

Yes, because a platform with various configurations of 2 heavy weapons, and S8 AP1 missiles, and optional defensive weapons, with POTMS, has no value in a shooting army.

It's an Assault Transport...with guns. If you're not using it as such you're using it wrong. It's main ability is to quickly deploy a dread and a squad in an enemies face...sometimes after moving flat out.

Do you know another thing that those units all have in common? They all came out after the DH codex. Whos to say that DH will not get a unit with FnP and awesome HtH power? Besides, units like TH&SS termies, TWC seem to do rather well without FnP...

Another more general comment, ad hominem does nothing to further your cause, it meerly makes you look like a douche

Deadshane1 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:WS 5? Assault 2 guns? +2 S weapons standard on all GK units that are also power weapons for higher rank? If GK isn't an assault army, then I'm in bizarro world.

I mean really, is it that hard to figure?

Guard also aren't an assault army, but they have a few kick ass assault elements

Just because the army is primarily gunners does not mean you should strip it of all options and make it one dimentional, don't be an idiot, at the very least it is highly mobile, fragile anti tank.

Making wide statements like this is ridicilous because the slightlest inkling of how the codex is going to be balance isn't even released yet.
Considering all the CC upgrades you can stick on standard marines, a stormraven full of them in a SR could be pretty vicious. The real problem with a SR is its expensive, and you have to fill it with expensive troops.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:WS 5? Assault 2 guns? +2 S weapons standard on all GK units that are also power weapons for higher rank? If GK isn't an assault army, then I'm in bizarro world.

Ask anyone who wins with them...they're not.

All those fancy stats and added str doesnt mean a whole lot at initiative 4 when you dont have FNP and are outnumbered 4to1.

Makes for a decent showing for themselves on the defence...it's CRAP on offense...specially w/o a charge bonus.

I mean really, is it that hard to figure?

As someone who plays, and wins, with Grey Knights, I think I qualify to disagree.

In the highlighted statement, I assume you meant to put an OR somewhere in there, because to my knowledge there is no army that is both >int 4 and can out number you 4 to 1 , and with a 3+ armor save you'll be making most attacks anyway and if the unit has a power weapon then FNP wouldn't matter anyway.

I'm not saying that GK are assault only, because they can play both styles easily, but you negate a lot of the army's advantages playing shooting only

Nids can easily out number GKs, and most of their assault elements have Initiative greater than 4 either through natural stats, or buying furious charge. The lowly hormegaunt has I 5 and costs 6 points, and if upgraded wounds meqs on 4s. The minimum GK squad is 5, and costs 150 points. 150 points of upgraded (8 points) gaunts is 19, I've run the math, in CC those gaunts kill 4.7 meqs in CC, striking first.

GKs storm bolters make sure they aren't swarmed as badly, then the weakened horde they face is ripe for assaults. They are essentially even more elite space wolves. They don't get charge bonuses, because you are meant to receive a charge. They have the shrouding so people have a harder time shooting at them. (you really need to be within within 32 inches to see them better than 1/2 of the time. That is the ranges that psycannons work, and pretty close to where the storm bolters work.

The general tactic they were designed for was standing in area terrain or difficult terrain (so they get cover against plasma, don't want to lose 25 point models that easily) and shooting. When somebody tried to assault, unless they have grenades, they would have to fight the GKs going last. Which does in fact suck.

So I say GKs are a shooting army, that is good at recieving charges and counter assaulting. They lack the numbers to walk up the board (lack of model count), and they have poor transport options for doing so (Land Raiders only)

Grey Knights have been, for the last few years, an assault army shoehorned into a shooting role because their game design is simply so poor in a primary assault role.

WS5, S6, basic Marine stats screams 'assault troops'

25 ppm, no grenades, no extra attack on the charge, and a 50 pt sergeant screams 'figure out something else to be good at because you're not good enough at assaulting'

Thankfully, GK also have storm bolters, a dumbed dow night fight, and psycannons everywhere. If they can pull off 2 or 3 shooting phases, they can possibly tip the game back to their favor, or whittle down the opposition enough for S6 power weapon Terminators to clean house.

But still GK are *not* a dedicated shooting army. If they try to go toe to toe with IG, dedicated gunline Marine lists or even Shootahorde orks, they lose. 25 points for a storm bolter and 10 psycannons just isn't enough to declare yourself a true shooting army. GK shooting excels at 24", which is kind of a weird range range band to dominate as most other lists want to be either closer or further.

I think the new codex will maintain the modest shooting ability that GK have always had, improving their LRAT and AP2 capability with more lascannon/plasma platforms, but will also give them back a lot of the assault ability that they should have had but that the game evolved beyond.

The Grey Knights have always wanted demented bumblebees, so why not let them have some?

You know one of the things that Demonhunters lacked was high mobility options. Sure, you have land raiders, and FA GKPA squads, but that's not mobility like 5th ed. mobility.

I think it makes sense. It's the high mobility extension of the land raider.

sourclams makes the best point of this thread.

Right now? Yes, Grey Knights is more of a shooty army because all their troops and abilities are not particularly good at assault considered the other armies tooling around.

I am old enough to remember that when the codex was released, most Loyalist Marine players where chucking their terminators out the window because Grey Knight Terminators where simply better and could be allied to their forces, and the worst other codexes could throw at you, assault wise, was Chaos Deamons, and surprise, Grey Knights had answers to that.

They have the particular handicap of being a 3rd edition codex in a 5th edition game, which had lead their current tactics to become extremely narrowed.

As far as what type of army they are? They are Marines, they are meant to be both Assault and Shooty. They will always have their shooting options, but they will have also always have their crazy assault. The new codex will change how they get those options, but they will be there regardless. Why do they have a Storm Raven, a shooty tank with the ability to deliver assault elements? Again, they are a marine army.

Notabot, sourclams and mahu covered it quite well and deadshane is more right than wrong.

True 'generalists' if there could ever be more of a 'generalist' army made out of the 'generalist' space marines.

DH has lost it's identity and got caught stuck between a 'shooty' army and an 'assault' army.

Hopefully, that all comes together well in the next codex.

Deadshane1 wrote:Grey Knight have no unit that can pwn dedicated assault units in CC.

Dreadnoughts CRUSH any unit in CC. With NOTHING in the army ready to fight them in HtH.

They cannot handle hordes in CC.

I have to disagree on all counts.

GK Termies, especially with a grand master attached, destroy just about every assault unit except TH SS termies. Even then its a close fights.

Hitting on 3s, and being able to glance with every attack makes dreads hurt. You only need one weapon destroyed to blow off that CC arms and then its just a matter of time before you glance it to death. Its not a preferred match up but it works. The exceptions would be the ridiculous blood talon dreads or iron clads, but everyone struggles against those.

And against hordes you get lots of storm bolter shoots to weaken the unit, the you usually fight first, then hit on 3's wound on 2's, and the unit probably has a 5 or 6 save. You can do ALOT of damage in that situation. Plus the termies can take holocaust, I wouldn't use it against everything but it is a nice insurance policy against hordes.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Hitting on 3s, and being able to glance with every attack makes dreads hurt. You only need one weapon destroyed to blow off that CC arms and then its just a matter of time before you glance it to death. Its not a preferred match up but it works.

Sorry but that line of reasoning just isn't going to get you far. Let it rest at me disagreeing with you in general, except for GKTs versus AssTerms; whoever gets the charge is probably going to win that one.

Against Dreads, though, it's not about 'well, I may eventually pull it down with glances', it's about needing more than 100 S6 attacks to get you four weapon destroyed/immobilized results to do so. Even if you do get the CCW on the first assault phase, there's better than even odds that the Dread just kicks your guys to death before it can be glanced down. If your 5 man GK squad is still costing 150 points, your opponent can swap you 100 point dreads for 150 point squads all day and be assured that his remaining 1700 point list will have an edge over your remaining 1550 point list.

You simply cannot afford for 150-250 point squads to get stuck into the horrible tarpit that an AV12 walker represents with an army as elite as GK.

Was curious why no one brought up the Terminators in the SR... Being an assault vehicle and a skimmer, it seems to be a really good way to get those WS 5 Str 6 power weapons directly into assault... While still firing one (or more) weapon(s) and probably dropping a DN to shoot/assault another possible target... Yes, probably useless for the Power Armor troops, but...

*COUGH* Grey Knight Terminators *COUGH*

Supposedly GKTs will be able to take TH/SS in the new codex. If a few of those combined with NFW, WS5, and 2+ armor doesn't make for a dedicated assault unit, well, I don't know what does.

It'll all depend on the point cost. No matter how good the wargear and USRs, if they're 90 ppm (or 50 and no better than a regular AssTerm) they'll still suck.

6 AssTerms in a SR seems awesome; how awesome will they have to be to justify 500 points spent? 600?