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I feel the majority of the criticism they received was both on point and helpful, at the very least sent them the messages of what their audience really liked, instead of what they assumed their audience liked.

Which critisism and which audience do you mean?

The majority of posters on Dakka was throwing mud at them, but that was not the majority of pledgers.

And for instance, it was planned from the start to release all announced miniatures if possible.
That it worked out was not the result of panic and mud slinging on forums, but of original plans and enough funds.

And I am personally convinced that the mud slinging did more harm to the campaign than anything claimed by the mud slingers.

About how much would the kickstarter exclusives and the freebies fetch on ebay once it's released? I'm considering using the paypal option for Lieutenant tier just to have enough of an IG army and sell off most of the freebies to pay for the initial donation/pledge.

That also brings up the question as to why anyone would buy higher tier pledges when they can just get repeated Lieutenant tier and have effectively double their money's worth.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Which critisism and which audience do you mean?

The majority of posters on Dakka was throwing mud at them, but that was not the majority of pledgers.

And for instance, it was planned from the start to release all announced miniatures if possible.
That it worked out was not the result of panic and mud slinging on forums, but of original plans and enough funds.

And I am personally convinced that the mud slinging did more harm to the campaign than anything claimed by the mud slingers.

Kroot, this is what I was talking about...

Making a blanket statement about the majority of posters in a thread deciding what they meant, even when they tell you your interpretation is not correct, is not going to go over well. You can certainly disagree, but you should do so on what is written, and not words you put in others mouths.

When we are passionate about a project, or really love it, it is tough to accept criticism of it, especially when we think it is already pretty much perfect. This does not however mean criticism is outright attack with no intent but to damage.

KickStarters are particularly tough to digest because so much rides on support. As you yourself point out, criticism obviously does not neccesarily mean those criticizing are not supporting! If going by most forums and even most KS comment threads in the KS themselves, a lot of it is negative stuff. Either by people with negative things to say, or people aggressively defending leading to an impression of negativity. It does't do much good to say the problem is mud slinging and then react by mudslinging in a tit-for-tat fashion.

Can this be solved?

Not really... People expect different things out of a KS, it is soooooo varied. I may prioritize a good business plan and quality materials above endless freebies. Another person, like Alpharius for example, ascribes a lot of his perceived value to the extras, the bonus of pre-supporting and giving the owners the chance to be profitable for years to come. Another person may take a purely aesthetic approach, or want to support known companies they like.

Am I right? Are they wrong? Who wins this argument?

Nobody is the answer lol.

Chances are, if things escalate in a KS thread, that you and the people on the 'other side' aren't even having the same argument really! Completely different value systems in play... and those different value systems mean what would 'support' the KS may be equally different. If I picture a KS to be a very dynamic and still in flux business plan, I will criticize and pick at everything, not to be an ass, but because I think there is still time to make it perfect in my eyes. That is perfectly legitimate and genuine helpfulness if I believe that is what will help them succeed.

Just as likely, if I know a KS is set in stone, everything is almost already done, that certain things are impossible or too expensive to do, I will try to get people to stop making helpful suggestions to protect both the KS owners and the other potential client from pressure and disappointment over something that won't be changing anyways.

Again, is one person right and the other wrong? NO. They are both really, genuinely trying to help in the way they think is best.

What upsets me about your comment, is that the implication is that a lot of people here just came to hurt this project, maliciously. Maybe a few did. But I know, I know, a lot of them were just doing their best to help. I am upset that either 'side' would look down on the other as the enemy instead of working together, focused not on their differences in method or value, but on love of the product everyone wanted to see succeed.

Sorry about the Sermon, and believe me, it certainly applies to a great many people in this thread. Maybe you guys care maybe you don't, but honestly, if you are willing, think about it. I hope you will find maybe a few friendly and honorable apologies are owed on both 'sides' and realize you are ALL a bunch of great, enthusiastic people. Agree to disagree, and AGREE TO AGREE too!

 stonefox wrote:
About how much would the kickstarter exclusives and the freebies fetch on ebay once it's released? I'm considering using the paypal option for Lieutenant tier just to have enough of an IG army and sell off most of the freebies to pay for the initial donation/pledge.

That also brings up the question as to why anyone would buy higher tier pledges when they can just get repeated Lieutenant tier and have effectively double their money's worth.

Not much, all the freebies except Drusilla are going to be released at some point.

 stonefox wrote:
About how much would the kickstarter exclusives and the freebies fetch on ebay once it's released? I'm considering using the paypal option for Lieutenant tier just to have enough of an IG army and sell off most of the freebies to pay for the initial donation/pledge.

That also brings up the question as to why anyone would buy higher tier pledges when they can just get repeated Lieutenant tier and have effectively double their money's worth.

Actually the step above was better, $5 convenience charge in the pledge Vs. $15, also Two lieutenants may be charged $46 to get to the U.S. while one bigger pledge is only $23.

The freebies add up to something like $150 though which becomes doubled by getting another one. Getting a higher pledge just gets the one set of freebies still. Assuming you can get the $value out of doubling up the freebies, you get substantially more value from 2 $150 pledges than 1 $365 pledge.

$330 - 2xLt - $300 in minis + $300 in freebies = $600
$365 - 1xCpt - $370 in minis + $150 in freebies = $520
$80 more value in the 2x Lt's at $35 cheaper. Greatly outweighs the shipping.

Unless my math is off which is possible. Yay pain and pain meds!

 Yonan wrote:
The freebies add up to something like $150 though which becomes doubled by getting another one. Getting a higher pledge just gets the one set of freebies still. Assuming you can get the $value out of doubling up the freebies, you get substantially more value from 2 $150 pledges than 1 $365 pledge.

$330 - 2xLt - $300 in minis + $300 in freebies = $600
$365 - 1xCpt - $370 in minis + $150 in freebies = $520
$80 more value in the 2x Lt's at $35 cheaper. Greatly outweighs the shipping.

Unless my math is off which is possible. Yay pain and pain meds!

The math in dollars maybe is right, but in terms of marginal utility...

I would say that
utility(1$ of chosen minis) > utility(1$ of not choses minis, in double copy)

Speaking only for myself, the freebies contributed substantially to my deciding to keep my pledge in. . I'm not going to count stuff I think they realistically were already going to do, like head swaps and alternate weapons, but the value proposition of an additional 10 troops/characters and and 4 mini-characters really helped sell it to me

Concur with Ouze, I really liked that I'm getting a couple models for each army from the freebies. I'm really looking forward to painting the IE armor officer for example. I think all total I'm walking away with 17 heroines in the $10-$15 classes, some snipers and three large models. For under $200 shipped I am pretty darn okay with that.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Not much, all the freebies except Drusilla are going to be released at some point.

Sergio Tulkas wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
The freebies add up to something like $150 though which becomes doubled by getting another one. Getting a higher pledge just gets the one set of freebies still. Assuming you can get the $value out of doubling up the freebies, you get substantially more value from 2 $150 pledges than 1 $365 pledge.

$330 - 2xLt - $300 in minis + $300 in freebies = $600
$365 - 1xCpt - $370 in minis + $150 in freebies = $520
$80 more value in the 2x Lt's at $35 cheaper. Greatly outweighs the shipping.

Unless my math is off which is possible. Yay pain and pain meds!

The math in dollars maybe is right, but in terms of marginal utility...

I would say that
utility(1$ of chosen minis) > utility(1$ of not choses minis, in double copy)

See, the way I'm thinking is that if I were to get another Lt. pledge, I could sell off the KS exclusive for maybe $10-15 and the additional KS freebies for $5 each, depending on how flooded the market is. Even at that point, I'm still effectively only paying for ~$100 (including shipping) for an extra $150 in minis.

Yeah, the freebies were a real bonus. Even after a financial setback that made me need to lower my pledge, the freebies made it to where I will still be able to field a full army.

 MajorTom11 wrote:

Kroot, this is what I was talking about...

Making a blanket statement about the majority of posters in a thread deciding what they meant, even when they tell you your interpretation is not correct, is not going to go over well. You can certainly disagree, but you should do so on what is written, and not words you put in others mouths.

When we are passionate about a project, or really love it, it is tough to accept criticism of it, especially when we think it is already pretty much perfect. This does not however mean criticism is outright attack with no intent but to damage.

Thank you Tom, for your eloquent and accurate statement.

I don’t want to come back into this thread, but MajorTom posted something lengthy and well thought out so I think I should give a response to two parts of it.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
What upsets me about your comment, is that the implication is that a lot of people here just came to hurt this project, maliciously. Maybe a few did. But I know, I know, a lot of them were just doing their best to help. I am upset that either 'side' would look down on the other as the enemy instead of working together, focused not on their differences in method or value, but on love of the product everyone wanted to see succeed.

I never saw this thread (or this KS campaign) as a place where ‘sides’ existed, where there was some sort of “pro” side and some sort of “anti” side. In fact I don’t think anyone ever wanted this project to not succeed. I also don’t believe, as you said, that people came into it with the intention of being negative. What I did see though was one of the most negative threads I have ever seen at Dakka (and I said as much). I have a sponge like memory for irrelevant trivia, so I tend to remember quite a bit, and I’ve never seen a thread at Dakka quite like this one (I did not choose the word ‘shameful’ lightly – that was the honest opinion I had when reading the thread). Was it intentional? I really doubt it, but I don’t think that matters. What we ended up getting was a dogpile; a whole host of people crying bloody murder over the smallest of things.

I’m not blind however, and I can acknowledge that Raging Heroes of course made mistakes (ever KS does this), but these mistakes get treated as if they are personal slights against the backers. And when I start seeing people say things like “they’re obviously in damage control” I just roll my eyes.

You want to see real damage control? Look at all the crap that’s gone on with the Sedition Wars Kickstarter. Not while it was going on mind you – since it ended, since it shipped, since people started to receive their products.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Agree to disagree, and AGREE TO AGREE too!

I find that golden means are often either unhelpful or dishonest. True, not everything has to have a right answer or a correct ‘side’, but at the same time saying “agree to disagree” can be nothing more than a cop-out.

Operating from a rigid standpoint which doesn't allow for the possibility of different values or priorities while still pretending to be actually participating in a conversation is also a cop-out though HBMC.

YOU think they were small things.
YOU think it was crying bloody murder.

The people you are referring to as perpetrators might feel differently about it on both counts.

This thread is what you guys have made of it. If you think it was a crap-fest and shameful, and you posted a great deal in it, look in the mirror. All of you.

The idea that 'something went wrong' here in particular, in terms of structure, is fallacious. The mods are only here to enforce the rules, not to dictate peoples opinions to them. 'They're obviously in damage control mode' is not rule breaking, or rude. It's an opinion, and one not entirely impossible to understand in terms of how a person might arrive at it if they choose to look at things a certain way.

Disregard of the concept of 'agree to disagree' is exactly why this thread got so tense. In my opinion, everyone who thought they were fighting hard for this KS to succeed probably did more damage than any criticism levelled at it. I did not even look at this thread other than to post Kroots updates on the first page, until it was over. I heard a few people calling it a crap-fest and looked at it.

The people calling it a crapfest are acting like it is objective fact that it is everyone else's fault but theirs, like they didn't participate in the problem. That, to me, IS the problem.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you come to this or any forum with a desire to enter conversations or debate but no ability or intent to empathize with the reasons WHY someone might see something differently, you are going to have a rough time. You don't have to agree, you just have to make the effort to understand. No one wants to say stupid things. If they feel a certain way it is because they find value in their point of view. If you then crap on that point of view, demean it with no respect for the reasons they held it, you are in fact the one being the aggressor to them personally.

All they did was have an opinion on some models. You and Kroot attack them personally when you talk like that.

That, is not cool as far as I am concerned.

I understand perfectly the standpoint you both seem to share, and I acknowledge the many things which are pointless criticism if you have a lot of knowledge about KSs. A lot of the stuff criticized was done so under the assumption it could still change, when, if you know the cost, time and logistics that already went into it, and the timelines involved, you know most of it has to be locked in as is. It's just business and reality. So I understand why criticism on items like that is super frustrating to 'insiders' or 'experts', because the only possible result is negative feelings on both sides, one frustrated by the pointless debate, the other that their concerns feel ignored. I so get it, trust me. But it doesn't mean they have no right to criticize. It doesn't mean you get to decide what is a 'small thing' to someone else. It also doesn't mean I have to hurt my brain trying to figure out why you would see it the way you do either, it makes sense to your values and I can figure out why you feel that way. It isn't stupid, I just don't agree either. I agree to disagree with you, and then I move on back to focusing on things we do agree about.

KS, like any other PR/Marketing exercises, is all about managing expectations. That is the key to success, and a 'positive' environment. The methods employed in this thread were to attempt to demean and crush expectations not in line with your own (Your being a general term to the reader). That just brings me back to same point as before, it's a bad way to go about things, destined to fail off the bat. I think a lot of people here are guilty to contributing to that. If I was RH, I would be more pissed about how my more enthusiastic supporters decided to treat OTHER CLIENTS than I would be about any amount of criticism. No, criticism wasn't the issue here, whatever amount there is, it doesn't matter. How you handle criticism is all that counts in the selling game, and that was something RH should look at harder next time.

Now, all that is, of course, just my opinion.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

And when I start seeing people say things like “they’re obviously in damage control” I just roll my eyes.
You want to see real damage control? Look at all the crap that’s gone on with the Sedition Wars Kickstarter. Not while it was going on mind you – since it ended, since it shipped, since people started to receive their products.

The exact same statement was used a number of times in the DeadZone campaign, mostly around the initial Orc sculpts. I again assert that the RH thread was no worse than any of the Mantic threads. Both have a few people there who are mostly there just to be negative, but the vast majority of people in both were hoping for the respective campaigns to do well. Oddly, I don't know if I've seen much of what I'd call damage control from SW. It's mostly a deafening silence from over there...

 MajorTom11 wrote:
The mods are only here to enforce the rules, not to dictate peoples opinions to them.

Then next time, pleace enforce the rules about politeness and personal attacks. Thank you.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
The people calling it a crapfest are acting like it is objective fact that it is everyone else's fault but theirs, like they didn't participate in the problem. That, to me, IS the problem.

Yes, I admit, I helped updating the first post. I admit, I corrected obviously and now proven false statements. I admit, I flagged personal attacks against me as breaking Dakka rules. Guess that makes me part of offensive behavior. Thank you for pointing that out.

I will have to ask which statements were obviously and now proven false?

On that the majority of the "negative" criticism was people wanting to get what they were promised.

Sculpts that look exactly like the concept art

this

only remotely can be connected to this

WIP you know?
This has never been claimed to be the final product.

RoninXiC wrote:
WIP you know?
This has never been claimed to be the final product.

Then they shouldn't have been asking for pre-order money.

 AlexHolker wrote:

RoninXiC wrote:
WIP you know?
This has never been claimed to be the final product.

Then they shouldn't have been asking for pre-order money.

Kickstarter is not a pre-order.

Kickstarter is not a preorder.

but I guess I have to remind everyone update 15

3D RENDERS!

We know you all want to see some sculpts, especially about the Troops.
So below are 2 images showing the Kurganova Heavy Troopers.

As you see them here, they are nearing completion.
They are still missing some accessories, and several details will be refined.
The Trooper in the center of the second image is holding the rifle that is the closest to the definitive form.
All other weapons are just mock-ups and will therefore be upgraded.

Also, here's a conversation we just had on Facebook:
Question: "Is it me or do they look a bit... squashed. Short and thick kind of thing?"
Our Answer: "To have them compatible with the troops of various other gaming systems, they have to be this way, otherwise, they would be either too thin, or too tall. BUT, if you make the image smaller on your computer screen so they they show at 28mm scale, you will see that they are perfect!"

And we've just sent one of them to the 3D printer so we'll be able to show you a prototype next week.

WIP label came after the "negative criticism" if this negative thing pushed them from going from "GW heroic scale" back to what they initially promised, I believe we did them a great service for their future growth, most of us backed them for delivering their concept art in miniature form, based on their correctly (if rather supermodel) proportioned previously released models, not for models that fit GW proportions.

I believe that in contrast to previous kickstarters this one had a far greater proportion of not fanboys joining to the core pledgers, people who had no previous interactions with RH and waited this to be their first interaction, this is of course good for them, but also means that their interactions and the product they will deliver will mark how this potential pool will be converted.

I ended up pledging $15 just so that I'll have some first-hand experience with the product. I've still got no interest in buying an army at worse than Goldsword prices, but if they do end up offering proper plastic for mass infantry for any of the armies I'd like to know what I'm in for with the secondary units.

 shamikebab wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:
Then they shouldn't have been asking for pre-order money.

Kickstarter is not a pre-order.

That is an unconvincing, self-serving lie. Some Kickstarters are not preorders. This is not one of them. If it walks like a preorder and quacks like a preorder, it's a preorder.

 AlexHolker wrote:
I ended up pledging $15 just so that I'll have some first-hand experience with the product. I've still got no interest in buying an army at worse than Goldsword prices, but if they do end up offering proper plastic for mass infantry for any of the armies I'd like to know what I'm in for with the secondary units.

 shamikebab wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:
Then they shouldn't have been asking for pre-order money.

Kickstarter is not a pre-order.

That is an unconvincing, self-serving lie. Some Kickstarters are not preorders. This is not one of them. If it walks like a preorder and quacks like a preorder, it's a preorder.

Yes, except it isn't. You can treat it as one if you want, but that would be your fault.

From my perspective, if I viewed this one as a preorder, I would not have bothered to the extend I did, nor would I have provided such extensive feedback, I would have dropped my pledge and ignored the company from that point onward, I view this as a true kickstarter and supported them on belief they will keep their promise after the criticism that the troops will be done in line with the concept art and heroines.

 AlexHolker wrote:
This is not one of them. If it walks like a preorder and quacks like a preorder, it's a preorder.

The KS money was to fund the creation of the moulds, a very capital intensive process. That is not a pre order. Calling people liars over semantics doesn't do much for your credibility.

So, now that it's over, we're arguing over how we argued.

Can we just say "good fight, good night" and walk away, or must the circular drain swirl continue?

Someone said something wrong on the internet. No sleep for anyone until this is resolved!

[delete]

Not to belittle the concerns for forum decorum, but... this thread doesn't honestly seem all that bad.

Perhaps the mods were exceptionally quick at removing the offending posts, or I simply have a very high threshold for argument, but the only thing that really seemed all that out-of-sorts has been rending of garments in the aftermath.

For a really tendentious and persnickety argument check out HBMC and I disagreeing about the maximum possible contents of a bag (starting here). Pace other claims, that bit of rhetorical grapefruit is from the heights of the Sedition Wars campaign (almost exactly a year ago... ah, memories...).

In any case, this campaign seemed to be received as well as could be expected: what criticism there was seemed fairly well focused on specific issues, frequently containing concrete recommendations. And over the course of the campaign many of those recommendations would be adopted. For myself I exchanged several long messages with RH staff (half a dozen, perhaps?) and was gratified to see many of my suggestions taken to heart.

As for whether or not this campaign, like most campaigns in the miniature/game fields, is a pre-order, it's difficult to see it as anything but. What are the very most basic elements of a pre-order? The three core elements could reasonably be said to be payment made or promised, ahead of time, for a defined good or service.

While there are an infinite number of idiosyncrasies to various schemes of pre-orders, this paradigm would seem to fit rather well. Certainly better then competing descriptions, such as investment, venture capitol or other, more exotic species of exchange.

Finally, I apologize for not having my post mortem up yet, been a busy week and it will hopefully prove worth the wait.