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pretre wrote:They are like normal deep strikes but, you know, bloody.

Oh Emperor. We might actually use Dominica-pattern drop pods again, can't we?

Harriticus wrote:

pretre wrote:And hopefully all the stupid fething brofist jokes.

Tau and Ultramarines or Daemons and IG brofisting is far, far worse.

Seriously I can't even wrap my ahead around Daemons and Guardsmen fighting together.

Daemons are allies of convenience with IG, so no Battle Brother brofisting. Also Traitor Guard.

Wait, if DE can't take power fists, we have no more anti-termi :0

pretre wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Seriously I can't even wrap my ahead around Daemons and Guardsmen fighting together.

Traitor ... wait for it, wait for it... guard

They're not meant to be Traitor Guard. They're meant to be Imperial Guard. It doesn't say "Traitor Guard" or "Imperial Guard substituting as Traitor Guard", and a Traitor Guard representation would also have things such as marks of Chaos and what you. Until it says they're Traitor Guard in that situation, I'll say they're Imperial Guard.

Plus if that were the case they'd be Brothers in Arms, not Allies of Convenience. GW is meant to have us believe that if Tyranids invade a world, Daemons and Guardsmen would fight side by side against them.

Harriticus wrote:

pretre wrote:And hopefully all the stupid fething brofist jokes.

Tau and Ultramarines or Daemons and IG brofisting is far, far worse.

Seriously I can't even wrap my ahead around Daemons and Guardsmen fighting together.

Traitor guard, bro.

quilava1 wrote:Wait, if DE can't take power fists, we have no more anti-termi :0

Access to your ally's wargear comes in 7E. True story.

Harriticus wrote:Plus if that were the case they'd be Brothers in Arms, not Allies of Convenience. GW is meant to have us believe that if Tyranids invade a world, Daemons and Guardsmen would fight side by side against them.

This bit is true. If Traitor Guard allies with demons/CSM they'd be Brothers in Arms. This "in-between" is actually less fluffy than either of the extremes (enemies of BFF).

Curiously, Eldar and Dark Eldar are Brothers in Arms. I'm assuming this refers to "Traitor Eldar", but why doesn't the same reasoning not hold true for Guard + Chaos?

Evidence for Imperial Guard allying with Daemons:
1.) That's what it says
2.) No statement that the chart means anything other then what it says
3.) Lack of Chaos-affiliated rules for Guardsmen
4.) They're allies of convinence, not brothers in arms.

Evidence that the Imperial Guard allying with Daemons are meant to be Traitor Guard
1.) Assumption, because that's the only way it would make sense to us

But GW has been known to throw accepted fluff out the window (Necrons 5th Ed) so the above evidence is actually a fallacy.

Lynata wrote:

quilava1 wrote:Wait, if DE can't take power fists, we have no more anti-termi :0

Access to your ally's wargear comes in 7E. True story.

Incubi have +1 S PW, right? Those'll get FAQ'd to be Power Axes, I bet.

Harriticus wrote:

pretre wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Seriously I can't even wrap my ahead around Daemons and Guardsmen fighting together.

Traitor ... wait for it, wait for it... guard

They're not meant to be Traitor Guard. They're meant to be Imperial Guard. It doesn't say "Traitor Guard" or "Imperial Guard substituting as Traitor Guard", and a Traitor Guard representation would also have things such as marks of Chaos and what you. Until it says they're Traitor Guard in that situation, I'll say they're Imperial Guard.

Plus if that were the case they'd be Brothers in Arms, not Allies of Convenience. GW is meant to have us believe that if Tyranids invade a world, Daemons and Guardsmen would fight side by side against them.

1) I think you're looking too deeply into the different designations

2) Now you're just making stuff up.

3) Why do you get to decide that Traitor guard would have marks of chaos? AFAIK, typical soldiers are too significant to recieve the blessing of the chaos gods

I flipped out about allies earlier on, but you're being a little bit ridiculous now. Daemons with human support in the form of cultists/tratiot guard is completely feasible, a well known piece of fluff, and has always been something people have done with IG. Hell, FW even makes models for traitor guard.

quilava1 wrote:Wait, if DE can't take power fists, we have no more anti-termi :0

Yes, but don't you have accsess to buckets of rending weapons?

Harriticus wrote:Evidence for Imperial Guard allying with Daemons:
1.) That's what it says
2.) No statement that the chart means anything other then what it says
3.) Lack of Chaos-affiliated rules for Guardsmen
4.) They're allies of convinence, not brothers in arms.

Evidence that the Imperial Guard allying with Daemons are meant to be Traitor Guard
1.) Assumption, because that's the only way it would make sense to us

CSB. Also, it may be allies of convenience simply as a 'balance' issue. I can imagine some interesting combos otherwise.

pretre wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Evidence for Imperial Guard allying with Daemons:
1.) That's what it says
2.) No statement that the chart means anything other then what it says
3.) Lack of Chaos-affiliated rules for Guardsmen
4.) They're allies of convinence, not brothers in arms.

Evidence that the Imperial Guard allying with Daemons are meant to be Traitor Guard
1.) Assumption, because that's the only way it would make sense to us

CSB. Also, it may be allies of convenience simply as a 'balance' issue. I can imagine some interesting combos otherwise.

Yes can you see Creed Giving "For the Honor of Cadia" to Korne Bazerkers

Griever wrote:

1) I think you're looking too deeply into the different designations

I'm not, you're looking too deeply. I see the chart that says "Imperial Guard are allies with Daemons" and I see "GW is saying that Imperial Guard can ally with Daemons"

You on the other hand are looking more deeply into it, saying "they don't mean Imperial Guard (even though that's what the chart says), they mean Traitor Guard"

2) Now you're just making stuff up.

Where? I'm looking at what the chart says and nothing more

3) Why do you get to decide that Traitor guard would have marks of chaos? AFAIK, typical soldiers are too significant to recieve the blessing of the chaos gods

I think Traitor Guard would at least need some sort of representation that they're traitor guard, besides "well obviously that's what they mean" or "because I say so". Even if it just says "these guys are meant to be traitor guard" somewhere. Otherwise you're speculating, and it's Imperial Guard allying with Daemons, because that's what it says

I flipped out about allies earlier on, but you're being a little bit ridiculous now. Daemons with human support in the form of cultists/tratiot guard is completely feasible, a well known piece of fluff, and has always been something people have done with IG. Hell, FW even makes models for traitor guard.

It is feasible, and Forgeworld does make Traitor Guard models. However, it has not been said that the Imperial Guard are meant to be Traitor Guard, and the FW Traitor Guard forces have their own entirely separate ruleset.

Basically I'm not operating by assumption and faith. Yes, I would like that Traitor Guard can ally with Daemons and I would like that GW intends for the Imperial Guard to be Traitor Guard, but there's simply no evidence to support this.

Keep in mind we also accept that Tau can ally with Daemons, even though by all accounts Tau shouldn't even be able to see or sense them and vice versa. GW is not keeping this "fluffy"

pretre wrote:And hopefully all the stupid fething brofist jokes.

Huh? The guy who made the chart was simply unaware of a LOT of the different backgrounds and the Necron <-> BA mistake is just one example. We will play BA <-> Necrons as lvl 2 allies, mostly for balance reasons.

On the FNP issue: playing Necron, sitting on an objective with the "give FNP near objective" commander trait...3+ armor save, 5+ FNP, 4+/5+ RP. Haha.

pretre wrote:

Lynata wrote:

quilava1 wrote:Wait, if DE can't take power fists, we have no more anti-termi :0

Access to your ally's wargear comes in 7E. True story.

Incubi have +1 S PW, right? Those'll get FAQ'd to be Power Axes, I bet.

doubt it :p and if they are, we lose i6 Xp


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anpu42 wrote:

quilava1 wrote:Wait, if DE can't take power fists, we have no more anti-termi :0

Yes, but don't you have accsess to buckets of rending weapons?

No, no we do not, just poison....

quilava1 wrote:

pretre wrote:

Lynata wrote:

quilava1 wrote:Wait, if DE can't take power fists, we have no more anti-termi :0

Access to your ally's wargear comes in 7E. True story.

Incubi have +1 S PW, right? Those'll get FAQ'd to be Power Axes, I bet.

doubt it :p and if they are, we lose i6 Xp


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anpu42 wrote:

quilava1 wrote:Wait, if DE can't take power fists, we have no more anti-termi :0

Yes, but don't you have accsess to buckets of rending weapons?

No, no we do not, just poison....

Harlys.

quilava1 wrote:Wait, if DE can't take power fists, we have no more anti-termi :0

What about a Talos, with the newly buffed FNP that lets you use it against powerfists and enough initiative to strike before them? That, or the plethora of S8+ AP2 shooting weapons in your codex of course.

quilava1 wrote: doubt it :p and if they are, we lose i6 Xp

Klaive = Power Axe
Demiklaive = User chooes Power Sword or Power Maul each round

But yeah, that'd suck about the Init.

Actually, the whole "Allies of Convenience" between Traitor Guard and Chaos makes some sense to me, because I don't think CSM or Daemons would give a flying feth about what their puny servants think of their battleplan, the renegades/cultists would probably just follow them into battle because of their dedication to the cause, hoping of getting closer to the gaze of the Ruinous Powers for just a second before their fagile lives are extinguished.

On the other hand, I don't think a Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince would listen one second to the orders from heretic Guard commander, even though he could be in control of a much larger army than their own. They would just roam around the battlefield, doing what ever they would feel like.

Let's save the "my army was horribly nerfed" conversations for (at least) Saturday, when we have a more complete picture.

Anpu42 wrote:

quilava1 wrote:Wait, if DE can't take power fists, we have no more anti-termi :0

Yes, but don't you have accsess to buckets of rending weapons?

One unit that has to have a certain type of composition. This is the only thing making me not like 6th...that and structure points on vehicles...so raiders and venoms have what 1? So a lucky bolter wrecks the whole thing? If they have 2...ok.

Incubi getting the ax treatment would be like taking...well an ax to them. The advantage of the DE is speed so reducing a unit to I 1 is a death sentance. Hence why you would see PGLs on Archons acompaning Incubi. The face is that if agonisers don't get AP2 or something equivilent then I know a very big DE army that will not be played for an edition. Only one charachter auto-ignores armor (Leltih) and she is stupid expensive. That and there is only one person who laughs at PW in the entire army and he too is stupid expensive. Then you are looking at about 1 and 1/2 venoms to kill 1 terminator. So to destroy a whole squad the entire rest of the army is unchecked. Then using DL is improbable so then other mech is ignored.

Hmm...implosion missiles however...nope to expensive too. I'll find a way.

Ooh Fire Dragons as allies gets plenty of AP1!

Anpu42 wrote:Yes can you see Creed Giving "For the Honor of Cadia" to Korne Bazerkers

To be fair, Cadian regiments falling to Chaos wouldn't be a new thing.

40k has always been 50% "make up your own stuff" - it's why they never bothered to enforce any sort of canon between the various novels and other books, at least according to Gav Thorpe. So when you have a guy who wants to play with a demonized IG regiment from a setting where Cadia has been successfully invaded by Chaos, he can now do so.

I still think they may have just as well went all the way, though. Some of the combinations possible now are pretty silly already, they may have just allowed anything now for all I care. Chaos Sisters makes more sense than SoB and Necrons; at least we had the former in a comic already.

Bonde wrote:Actually, the whole "Allies of Convenience" between Traitor Guard and Chaos makes some sense to me, because I don't think CSM or Daemons would give a flying feth about what their puny servants think of their battleplan, the renegades/cultists would probably just follow them into battle because of their dedication to the cause, hoping of getting closer to the gaze of the Ruinous Powers for just a second before their fagile lives are extinguished.
On the other hand, I don't think a Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince would listen one second to the orders from heretic Guard commander, even though he could be in control of a much larger army than their own. They would just roam around the battlefield, doing what ever they would feel like.

Tis true, but you could have used the "Brothers in Arms" rule to represent that, yes, the renegade/cultist leader is utterly devoted to that CSM, or that the CSM Captain is going to listen to the orders of his Daemon Prince.

Harriticus wrote:It is feasible, and Forgeworld does make Traitor Guard models. However, it has not been said that the Imperial Guard are meant to be Traitor Guard, and the FW Traitor Guard forces have their own entirely separate ruleset.

Basically I'm not operating by assumption and faith. Yes, I would like that Traitor Guard can ally with Daemons and I would like that GW intends for the Imperial Guard to be Traitor Guard, but there's simply no evidence to support this.

Keep in mind we also accept that Tau can ally with Daemons, even though by all accounts Tau shouldn't even be able to see or sense them and vice versa. GW is not keeping this "fluffy"

Does this one chart irk you that badly? If you're going to be that serious about the fluff implications of the chart surely then you would agree that an IG army would not one day ally with daemons then a few weeks later ally with GK. Call them traitor guard, call them imperial guard. It doesn't matter, a codex is just a name. The CSM codex covers traitor marines which aren't true champions of chaos. The BA codex covers multiple successor chapters which have a wide range of beliefs. The GK codex itself has the possibility of fielding a radical inquisitor based army.

GW isn't saying that loyalist guardsmen will take up in arms with forces of chaos, they're saying that an army you can create by using codex: imperial guard could be used in conjunction with an army you can create with CD or CSM.

pretre wrote:
Incubi have +1 S PW, right? Those'll get FAQ'd to be Power Axes, I bet.

If they strike at Ini 1 like axes, I'd rather they don't. Odds are no Incubi will be alive to swing it by then.

Sephyr wrote:

pretre wrote:
Incubi have +1 S PW, right? Those'll get FAQ'd to be Power Axes, I bet.

If they strike at Ini 1 like axes, I'd rather they don't. Odds are no Incubi will be alive to swing it by then.

When Fighting Terminators you are likely to run into two types
Tatical Terminators with Power/Chain Fist [Sarge has a Power Sword]
Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield [with some Lighting Claws]
Most Terminators will also be going on I1 also.

Lynata wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:Yes can you see Creed Giving "For the Honor of Cadia" to Korne Bazerkers

To be fair, Cadian regiments falling to Chaos wouldn't be a new thing.

Yeah, actually it would.

Even when Chaos forces were on the planet during the 13th Black Crusade, the Traitor Guard regiments planetside were not made up of Cadians.
Cadian regiments don't turn. Maybe a few Cadians here and there will out of a regiment, but whole regiments going traitor is unheard of.

Harriticus wrote:

pretre wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Seriously I can't even wrap my ahead around Daemons and Guardsmen fighting together.

Traitor ... wait for it, wait for it... guard

They're not meant to be Traitor Guard. They're meant to be Imperial Guard. It doesn't say "Traitor Guard" or "Imperial Guard substituting as Traitor Guard", and a Traitor Guard representation would also have things such as marks of Chaos and what you. Until it says they're Traitor Guard in that situation, I'll say they're Imperial Guard.

Plus if that were the case they'd be Brothers in Arms, not Allies of Convenience. GW is meant to have us believe that if Tyranids invade a world, Daemons and Guardsmen would fight side by side against them.

It's because this allies thing is done down fluffilogical lines. But not really. But it kinda is. Except not. Hope that clears it up.

Anpu42 wrote:

Sephyr wrote:

pretre wrote:
Incubi have +1 S PW, right? Those'll get FAQ'd to be Power Axes, I bet.

If they strike at Ini 1 like axes, I'd rather they don't. Odds are no Incubi will be alive to swing it by then.

When Fighting Terminators you are likely to run into two types
Tatical Terminators with Power/Chain Fist [Sarge has a Power Sword]
Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield [with some Lighting Claws]
Most Terminators will also be going on I1 also.

Hello, I'd like to introduce you to somebody, his name is Mr ChaosTerminatorWithPowerWeapon

Harriticus wrote:

Griever wrote:

1) I think you're looking too deeply into the different designations

I'm not, you're looking too deeply. I see the chart that says "Imperial Guard are allies with Daemons" and I see "GW is saying that Imperial Guard can ally with Daemons"

You on the other hand are looking more deeply into it, saying "they don't mean Imperial Guard (even though that's what the chart says), they mean Traitor Guard"

2) Now you're just making stuff up.

Where? I'm looking at what the chart says and nothing more

3) Why do you get to decide that Traitor guard would have marks of chaos? AFAIK, typical soldiers are too significant to recieve the blessing of the chaos gods

I think Traitor Guard would at least need some sort of representation that they're traitor guard, besides "well obviously that's what they mean" or "because I say so". Even if it just says "these guys are meant to be traitor guard" somewhere. Otherwise you're speculating, and it's Imperial Guard allying with Daemons, because that's what it says

I flipped out about allies earlier on, but you're being a little bit ridiculous now. Daemons with human support in the form of cultists/tratiot guard is completely feasible, a well known piece of fluff, and has always been something people have done with IG. Hell, FW even makes models for traitor guard.

It is feasible, and Forgeworld does make Traitor Guard models. However, it has not been said that the Imperial Guard are meant to be Traitor Guard, and the FW Traitor Guard forces have their own entirely separate ruleset.

Basically I'm not operating by assumption and faith. Yes, I would like that Traitor Guard can ally with Daemons and I would like that GW intends for the Imperial Guard to be Traitor Guard, but there's simply no evidence to support this.

Keep in mind we also accept that Tau can ally with Daemons, even though by all accounts Tau shouldn't even be able to see or sense them and vice versa. GW is not keeping this "fluffy"

Trust me, I raged about this about 20 pages ago. I'm going to use the combinations that make sense to me (I'm going to make a Traitor Guard army with Daemon allies) and try not to strange the people who take a Land Raider full of terminators with their tau army, or somehow ally Daemons & Tau.

Griever wrote:
Keep in mind we also accept that Tau can ally with Daemons, even though by all accounts Tau shouldn't even be able to see or sense them and vice versa. GW is not keeping this "fluffy"

With the current fluff. Didn't the same people who leaked the allies rules also mention how Tau fluff would be changing? Its the same situation with Necrons and their new fluff.