Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello, I have again and again been told that the trygon is a tyranids players best heavy sport choise. Having tryed all of them I can sat that they are very good. 6 wounds, 40 point per wound and you have to kill all 6 wounds of it before it becomes un-dangerush. I rerolls all its hits, wounds on +2 and it kills tanks.

Now enter his littlebrother the ratle snake ravener who's bark is better then it's bite. Per trygon you can field 6 raveners. They have better ws, str of 4 and no mc so it can't eat everything it meets but it is better vs hordes as the 6 raveners put out 24 attacks with re-rolls to hit. It is also a beast so it get's the charge earlier. Also it has a better inisiative, witch could matter if somebody charges you as you can kill them before they kill you. If you want rending on them then it is only 5 per trygon. They will re roll all 1's, but not two's. The WS of 5 means that they will usualy hit on a 3+.

I snutbeled over the topic on the 3++ is the new black (I think?) and it sounds like what I thought was a dead end argument actualy was pretty more close then I would have imagined. Witch is better?

Also, on that note, if the trygon is the best thing the tyranid can field, why not field both?

1750 points:

1 Tyranid Prime, Toxic Sacks, Scything Tallons, Lash Whip and Bonesword 105
1 Tyranid Prime, Toxic Sacks, Scything Tallons, Lash Whip and Bonesword 105

2 Hive Guards 100
2 Hive Guards 100
2 Hive Guards 100

12 Termagants 60
10 Termagants 50
10 Termagants 50
10 Termagants 50

5 Raveners, Rending 175
5 Raveners, Rending 175

1 Trygon Prime 240
1 Trygon Prime 240
1 Trygon 200

1750 points. Shoot up transports turn 1 with hive guards or turn 2. Charge turn 2 and 3. Turn 4 = winn. I realice of course that the list may not be otimal. Especialy in the zynapse and troop section. And you can say that STR 8 weaponds will just tear into the 5 raveners, but the oponent will not have time to get them all. First perioraty should be the trygons since they eat EVERYTHING. Raveners following behind is also quite bad. As son as the bilard balls hit his line it should spread his units to the wind.

Please please discuss the strategy, not the list to illustrate.

What are you going to do when your opponent outranges you?

Hive Guard have 24" guns.

Personally, I'm going to sit back at 36" and empty your FoC. And as you close, I'll back up until they're gone. You've got short-mid range anti-tank......basically encouraging every opponent to engage you at range and keep it there as long as possible. For Eldar/Dark Eldar armies, that's permanently. =D

Well Dash I do not know if you have seen the Tyranid codex. I have long fielded 2 tyranofexes for 530 points with a whoping 4 shots a turn at bs 3. In short the senario you describe is what tyranids will have to face each time they meet eldar and a raider/venom dark eldar. Heck, I would even claim that meeting the standar trueborn+venom+ravagers will be hard on any tyranid.

Against eldars I think my list will just have to runn into the moddel of the map, and then run to the one side cornering them while getting shot up along the way.

against dark eldars I would put everything in reserve. The recerved hive guards would mean that you would ahve to keep 30" away from my table edge. When the trygons/trygon primes show up I would pup up by a transport and shoot it down, hopefully. If I am lucky the hive guards will arive later utelicing the wholes from the trygons to give them a huge threath range that first round.

With the sucky troop section I have I would probably go for the troops of eldar/dark eldar flying circus hoping for a draw. (It might be worth taking trevigons as troop and HQ. Then I could also give the hive guards Onslaught. It might not help a lott but it would be worth to increase the threat bubble so thanks dash! )

I would honestly say that the way the tyranid codex works I can't be abel to handel every singel army out there, Dark Eldar especialy, and mech in particular badly especialy fast like eldar. I don't know but I should think this army would stand a chanche against the imperial gunn line, and particularly the SM gunnline since it is just so mutch you need to shoot.

In short Dash, you do bring out a good point, but people can play devils advicate all day with any and every list. It apears that you like codexes that you can build all commers lists with, I do not think tyranids are that kind of codex. But it is very funn to se loads of big aliens chewing up tanks.

Well, you see - I play Dark Eldar. And I *do* play a venom heavy list.

I'm not playing theoryhammer all day with any and every list.

I'm telling you what would happen if you take the field against ME, or against any other Dark Eldar player playing a remotely similar army to me, which I'm told is a lot of folks. Your single hive guard don't scare me even if I'm in range. You'll need 4+ to hit, 3+ to glance, 4+ to penetrate, and I'll have a 4+ cover save. I like those odds, and unless you have BLOS terrain within 6" of your board edge, they won't get a second shot.

Trygons have STR5 guns. Don't hold your breath on shooting down transports of any sort.

If you're clear that your army doesn't stand a chance against DE ,or IG, or the SM gunline (and lets face it, that's BA, SW, and Vanilla Marines), you're done before you start. Why don't you look up Hulksmash, threads creates, and look at his Tyranid Tactica?

Dashofpepper wrote:Well, you see - I play Dark Eldar. And I *do* play a venom heavy list.

I'm not playing theoryhammer all day with any and every list.

I'm telling you what would happen if you take the field against ME, or against any other Dark Eldar player playing a remotely similar army to me, which I'm told is a lot of folks. Your single hive guard don't scare me even if I'm in range. You'll need 4+ to hit, 3+ to glance, 4+ to penetrate, and I'll have a 4+ cover save. I like those odds, and unless you have BLOS terrain within 6" of your board edge, they won't get a second shot.

Trygons have STR5 guns. Don't hold your breath on shooting down transports of any sort.

If you're clear that your army doesn't stand a chance against DE ,or IG, or the SM gunline (and lets face it, that's BA, SW, and Vanilla Marines), you're done before you start. Why don't you look up Hulksmash, threads creates, and look at his Tyranid Tactica?

I think what he might be trying to say is that while the situation you describe might be true, it common to most nid lists, not just this one...

Sure, nids can buy a couple of longer shots than this list has, but it also has 6 of the best ranged units in his codex already.
Also, he has six hive guard.... That's 12 bs4 s8 shots, and they can shoot while behind Los blocking cover.

Again, I am not disputing your ability to kill nids, just pointing out its not all in part due to the make up of this list....

Now, what this list does suffer from is a low count of big bugs, especially if you have to scale to 1500.
Without tervigons for cover or fnp, your trygons are going to get shot...a lot. Also, the troops are not very resilient.

However, you asked more about the tactic rather than the list...i think it has some merit...so what can we do?
Not 100% sure' but maybe swap out one trygon fornpointd, consolidate the hive guard into two units, and pick up a venomthrope and a few more troops. Stick one of the primes with the thrope, and see if that works.
Or drop a troop or two, and get a tervigon and the venomthrope.

Either way, would love to hear how ot works out...

First, this would have been better published in the Army Lists forum, rather than here.

Second, you two are both getting into discussing how one army would fare against such a force, and especially without actually trying it out, first. It look like a sick army, I hate playing Tyranids.

Best advice anyone could give to the OP: Just play it!

Here is the complete list of tyranid weapons with a range of more than 24".

Barbed Strangler - Not a bad weapon for killing hordes, but only S4 so not really useful against tanks.

Heavy Venom Cannon - If you hate Dark Eldar, you might want a way to play these, as they are much better against open-topped transports, but are not really the best in a take all comers list, due to the -1 on the damage table to closed top vehicles.

Rupture Cannon - with a 48" range it is tied for the longest range in the tyranid book. S10 and 2 shots too. The only problem is that it is mounted on a 265+ pt model. Your best option for long range anti-tank.

Spore Mine Launcher - Again, another anti-horde option, but with a bit better AP and some other rules. Again S4 so not useful against tanks.

Stranglethorn Cannon - Just a larger Barbed Strangler. S6 can work against some tanks, but you really need more than one shot.

Venom Cannon - Same as the Heavy Venom cannon above, can work on open-topped stuff, but has no place in a take all comers list.


So it is not a problem with the list that there is no Long Range Anti-Tank, because there is nothing like that in the tyranid book. Trygons can DS in and fire a bunch of S5 shots, which is one of the better options against fast vehicles with long range weapons, BUT the tyranids really do not have any answer for that. Fast Long Range AV is VERY hard for tyranids to deal with, especially against a good player. There is a reason why people are a little disappointed with the tyranid codex.

IF you want to tailor a list for DE, you could try to include some Venom cannons of either size, BUT they really do not belong in a take all comers list.

With this type of list, you need to inundate the opponent with more threats than he can chew off. For this, I would use the Parasite of Mortrex accompanied by a large swarm of gargoyles. For your troops, 1 tervigon + termagants to anchor your shooty firebase. Then you can round off with trygons (regular, not primes) and raveners.


Parasite

2x Hive Guards - 100
2x Hive Guards - 100
2x Hive Guards - 100

Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines - 175
10x Termagants - 50

14x Gargoyles - AG + TS - 112
5x Raveners - Rending Claws - 175
5x Raveners - Rending Claws - 175

Trygon
Trygon
Trygon

Total - 1747pts

In this case, the Parasite + gargoyles act more as a distraction unit and tries to hold up the enemy until help (trygons and raveners) can get there. Shooty firebase (tervigon, hive guards and termagant screen) should always be advancing with the army. Gargoyles provide cover to raveners. Tervigon should FNP gargoyles.

The alternative to this would be to use the flyrant:


Flyrant - 2x TL-BL Devourers, Wings - 260

2x Hive Guards - 100
2x Hive Guards - 100
2x Hive Guards - 100

Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Toxin Sacs - 185
11x Termagants - 55

5x Raveners - Rending Claws - 175
5x Raveners - Rending Claws - 175

Trygon
Trygon
Trygon

Total - 1750pts


Make sure to always keep your flyrant in cover, using the trygons if you have to. Also, FNP him as he will be priority target #1.


The name of the game is threat overload. The more threats knocking on your opponent's footsteps, the better. And while he's busy concentrating on your fast units, your hive guards will have free reign to popping his vehicles.

I am sorry that your paraoya got compremiced dash, but I was making a statment that bugs will just have a hard hard time against the lists mentioned, due, ad svendrix mentioned, the nids have no ranged weapons to speak of.

The trygon is still the best multitool, since the T-fex does very little besides the big gun (it is not very good in CC and usualy get charged after one round of shooting midfield, while it does not doe in the charge it always get tied up.)

I still think that spaming trygon's and raveners sound like a good idea.

How about a hive tyrant with a h. venom cannon to stunn tanks. If I can lock them down then perhaps the trygon can get close enough to gulp down some pasangers? If enough of his forces get chewed on then he might feel like he is comited to fight.

Also, if my oponent has 36" range (exluding marines) perhaps the tervigon with onslaught and hive guards could work. Thy walk 6, run 1 d 6 and shoot 24. Even if I do roll a 1 the oponent would have to be a very good shot to judge the diference between 31 and 36. What do you think?

jy2 wrote:With this type of list, you need to inundate the opponent with more threats than he can chew off. For this, I would use the Parasite of Mortrex accompanied by a large swarm of gargoyles. For your troops, 1 tervigon + termagants to anchor your shooty firebase. Then you can round off with trygons (regular, not primes) and raveners.


Parasite

2x Hive Guards - 100
2x Hive Guards - 100
2x Hive Guards - 100

Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines - 175
10x Termagants - 50

14x Gargoyles - AG + TS - 112
5x Raveners - Rending Claws - 175
5x Raveners - Rending Claws - 175

Trygon
Trygon
Trygon

Total - 1747pts

In this case, the Parasite + gargoyles act more as a distraction unit and tries to hold up the enemy until help (trygons and raveners) can get there. Shooty firebase (tervigon, hive guards and termagant screen) should always be advancing with the army. Gargoyles provide cover to raveners. Tervigon should FNP gargoyles.

The alternative to this would be to use the flyrant:


Flyrant - 2x TL-BL Devourers, Wings - 260

2x Hive Guards - 100
2x Hive Guards - 100
2x Hive Guards - 100

Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Toxin Sacs - 185
11x Termagants - 55

5x Raveners - Rending Claws - 175
5x Raveners - Rending Claws - 175

Trygon
Trygon
Trygon

Total - 1750pts


Make sure to always keep your flyrant in cover, using the trygons if you have to. Also, FNP him as he will be priority target #1.


The name of the game is threat overload. The more threats knocking on your opponent's footsteps, the better. And while he's busy concentrating on your fast units, your hive guards will have free reign to popping his vehicles.

I don't think only 2 synapse creatures for 1750 lists is a good idea, do you have some tactic for it or there is a real lack of control models, thus only 2 real targets for the enemy?, pray tell.

I have performed humiliating beat-downs on Trygons with Meganobs multiple times, and I think that they would do the same to Raveners. I love my Meganobs, I really do. Use Mad Dok Grotsnik and you can give them cybork bodies for 5 points each, and they're better than terminators.

I agree with warpcrafter. I spam rokkits in my horde, so if the gak load of rokkits doesnt down the big guys, then the meganobs I take certainly will. Ive had great success with them as MC hunters.


But saying that, OP I say go for it. Dont listen to people that are going to nit pick everything you want to take. Well I shouldnt say that exactly, take the advice if there is any, and keep it in mind. But dont let it discourage you from how YOU want to play your army. Dash has decent advice (meaning its really sound, if you want to be his clone and play exactly as he does) but he does tend to go against and in turn insult ALOT of players in doing that

Dash is a good player and he plays crons witch is thumbs up and all, but he has no love for my tyranids, or nids at all it seems if his advice is to go for better gunns witch is the tyranofex I have fielded 2 and 1 of plenty a time, and I am telling you they are not the awser.

I have not tryed MASS svarm, but I dont se how that will help with all the blast template sgoing around.

With that being sead, warpcrafter I think as the tyranid player I should try to get the charge on you with multiple units with hier inisiative.

I have been playing with the 3 raveners I have, and I find them decent. but the range for nids sucks.

I like the parasite, but watch for walkers, and fists.

They need to come to grips with things fast. HT with the ability that gives a +1 to reserves works. Genestealers, podded zoanthropes, and the doom are things that would fill this gap.

Stealers out flanking makes most of my opponents hug the center. which is where the rest of my army is going. If everyone is bunched up and starting to get out of transports then the Doom will have a wonderful day.

I think the Parasite list would work better for what you are trying. You really need some more speed and oomp and the parasite and gargoyles will help. Plus the terigon will take some fire off the raveners.

Dash, you do not seem so updated on the tyranids. The reason for the tervigon is not for the S5 shot, but for the Onslaught psycick power to use on the hive guards (at least in this list) This could potensialy also deny you coversaves depending on the distance between them and the terain available.

Also the trygon would be abel to shoot up not regular tansports unles he lands behind them but I would manadge to shoot dark eldar transports (although what happens afterwards is probably unhealthy, or quite OK depending on the baord position.)

Niiai wrote:Dash, you do not seem so updated on the tyranids. The reason for the tervigon is not for the S5 shot, but for the Onslaught psycick power to use on the hive guards (at least in this list) This could potensialy also deny you coversaves depending on the distance between them and the terain available.

Also the trygon would be abel to shoot up not regular tansports unles he lands behind them but I would manadge to shoot dark eldar transports (although what happens afterwards is probably unhealthy, or quite OK depending on the baord position.)

What?!? I didn't say anything about Tervigons.

In terms of Trygons....if you're deploying them on the table in support of your Hive Guard, awesome. Not threatening me. Deep-strike/tunnel them on me away from everything else puts them out of support range, and you can bet my entire army has a 4+ cover save when you do. If you get past your ballistic skill, needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen, and my 4+ cover save, and manage to kill a vehicle....well, you just traded a Trygon for a transport. =D

Niiai, you're welcome to assemble your Trygons and meet me on Vassal for a game. Theoryhammering is never exactly useful. The only thing I can tell you is that I have no respect for Tyranids. None of the armies I play have the slightest issue laughing them off the table in any form. And I *have* played against them in pretty much every form, from the 5 tervigon list to deep-striking MCs, to swarms, to combinations of both. I've hit them a couple of times in GTs and batrepped the games.

Jy2 has some excellent advice, and at least one high-quality tournament report. I think his ideas are good.

Niiai, when I first saw your list I was also thinking that a Tervigon would be a more useful HQ than the two Primes, but I'd guess that Jy2 knows even better than me, as he's a good Nid player.

Dash you are a good player, but it has gone a bit to your head when it come to posting things here on dakkadakka. I am shure your dark eldar all commers list will destroy me as a player and my tyranid armylist even in the hands of somebody who has played a lott more then me. Stroking your need to re-confirm this on vassal really serves no purpose for me.

What I am looking for is a way to make a good allcomers list for Tyranids. I like building them, I like converting models, I like painting them and I like to base them. I wish I liked playing them as well but they are a very frustrating army to build lists to. I have Space Wolves, I can make them work. I have dark eldar, I can make them work and both of the codexes, the dark eldar especialy, is a lott more intuetive for me to build with because they lett you be in controll of the battlefield. I want to find a good tyranid build that does not involve getting shot for two tunrs, charging the third and realise you will not winn the game on turn 4.

Dash you are a great contributer to the dakkadakka board because your advice usualy is competetive but not always so good. It is usualy a matter of you telling people how it is and that should be the end of the story. If you look at the essence of what you say in this thread it is baysicly "lol's my eldars would eats you" only in better words, but it does not contribute that mutch to the bigger goal of helping the tyranid playing comunaty. You have saed yourself that you are not a winn at all costs player. The fact that you play very good with necrons also proves that because it is a very bad codex at the moment. And while you do work around the necron frame it just seems that you do have something against the tyranid codex as a whole.

Sorry Dash, I don't want to come off as negative and attacking you. It is just that "Your tyranid list would lose to this list" is getting very old for the tyranid players, because it is so very true for moasts lists. (With the exeptipon of the 60 man genstealer that was designed to take out leafblowers, witch did it good in a tournament.)

I do not think a beta strike recerved list is the way to go for Tyranids. I just don't want to shelf the tyranids I have worked so mutch on in favor of the dark eldar. I think trygons is the way to go, and reavers could be the 4th and 5th trygon slott.

Edit: Thanks Mannahnin, I will look it up. I did get sugested one good tyranid list, but it was not an all commers list. I'd rather not have my eggs in one bascet. And alas, the list posted it just a sugestion to ilustrate how the 4th and 5th trygon would work.

Some good stuff there, Niiai, and very gently said.

Niiai wrote:Dash you are a good player, but it has gone a bit to your head when it come to posting things here on dakkadakka.

He posted pretty much the same way when he was new and his lists were poor and he was beating just the bad players in his local stores. It's him. He's refined and improved his skills and gotten to display and improve them in bigger venues, but it's still the same Dash posting style.

warpcrafter wrote:I have performed humiliating beat-downs on Trygons with Meganobs multiple times, and I think that they would do the same to Raveners. I love my Meganobz, I really do. Use Mad Dok Grotsnik and you can give them cybork bodies for 5 points each, and they're better than terminators.

I dunno, Raveners are pretty lethal on the charge, with 5 attacks each, rending claws, and rerolling 1's to hit and striking first, they could very well demolish the Meganobz before they get a chance to hit. Now this is all speculation, and The Meganobz will ID any Ravener they hit though.

Raveners also have a possible 24 inch threat range, with a minimum of 19'. So, they are different beast than Trygons. Meganobz are pretty brutal though.

Niiai: My advice from the get-go was this: It has issues, look up Hulksmash's Tyranid Tactica. Since then, I've jumped through hoops to illustrate the problems with your list in an effort to get you to go visit Hulksmash's Tactica. Your list would improve if you read his stuff and took his advice. Its disappointing that all you've gotten out of what I've written is....well, nothing.

Mannahnin: That's not a fair assessment of my history on Dakka. I've pretty much always beaten everyone everywhere; due to the Dakka crowd accusing me of only playing bad players at local stores since my lists were bad, I decided to start doing batreps and reporting on my tournaments. And now my bad lists are much more rarely scoffed at, and I haven't heard "The only way you could win with that is against a bad player" in a long time. =D

Directing him to Hulksmash's list/reports was absolutely a good and useful thing to do, but it's one sentence out of 18 in your first two posts, most of which weren't very helpful, didn't seem to display an awareness that Tyranids have practically no guns with range over 24", and in which you made two substantial factual errors about Hive Guard shooting. Given that the Hive Guard were the main thing you were criticising, it rather undercut your credibility when you displayed that you didn't actually know the stats for them. Can you see how you kind of sabotaged your own points?

Perhaps my assessment of your history was slightly unfair, although the main point was perfectly accurate.

You haven't beaten everyone, or played everywhere. How many GTs did you attend last year, in your first year of traveling to GTs?

You did change your mind about some stuff, like Lootas (and the general need for shooting) and Cybork bodies. Your lists have improved, which is another reason you get less scoffing.

There is not one monolithic, always-in-agreement "Dakka crowd", either. You and me and Reecius and Hulksmash and Jy2 and Flavius_Infernus and Polonius and Kirika and Abaddon_Fidelis and Dracos and Sidstyler and imweasel are all part of the "Dakka crowd".

You have to take into consideration the perspective too. Let's face it, a monkey could build a DE all-comers army that gives Nid all-comers serious issues. They are hardly a fair comparision.

On the original list, I understand the approach, but what I see is a common failure in Nid lists. You have a strong offensive force in the trygons and raveners, but you have little to no consideration for how the troops and HQ synergizes with them, and that is setting yourself up for failure. You are essentially going into a 1750 point fight with only about 1200-1300 points of effective fighting power. You can't play a Nid army like that and expect to do well on a consistant basis. Each unit has to work together in a single cohesive force.

I know that you said that the troops and synapse were not well thought out, but the problem I think you'll run into is when you do sit down to work them out, you'll find that you are too short on points to make them work and keep the trygon/ravener hammer in it's current effective form.


On the ravener being a "poor man's trygon", here is a bit of mathhammer to give you an idea of relative offensive effectiveness (hardly an all encompasing comparision as there are other factors to consider, but it's a start).

UNIT: vs GEQ vs MEQ vs TH/SS Termies vs AV10 (combat speed
6 x Ravs with Rending claws (210pts): 10-11 dead 5-6 dead 2-3 dead 0 glances/2.5 pens
1 x Trygon with Adrenal Glands (210pts): 5-6 dead 5-6 dead 1-2 dead 0.3 glances/4.8 pens

In any case where FnP is involved, the Trygon will pull ahead due to all of it's attacks ignoring armor and IDing T3 models.

Maelstrom808 wrote:You have to take into consideration the perspective too. Let's face it, a monkey could build a DE all-comers army that gives Nid all-comers serious issues. They are hardly a fair comparision.

On the original list, I understand the approach, but what I see is a common failure in Nid lists. You have a strong offensive force in the trygons and raveners, but you have little to no consideration for how the troops and HQ synergizes with them, and that is setting yourself up for failure. You are essentially going into a 1750 point fight with only about 1200-1300 points of effective fighting power. You can't play a Nid army like that and expect to do well on a consistant basis. Each unit has to work together in a single cohesive force.

I know that you said that the troops and synapse were not well thought out, but the problem I think you'll run into is when you do sit down to work them out, you'll find that you are too short on points to make them work and keep the trygon/ravener hammer in it's current effective form.


On the ravener being a "poor man's trygon", here is a bit of mathhammer to give you an idea of relative offensive effectiveness (hardly an all encompasing comparision as there are other factors to consider, but it's a start).

UNIT: vs GEQ vs MEQ vs TH/SS Termies vs AV10 (combat speed
6 x Ravs with Rending claws (210pts): 10-11 dead 5-6 dead 2-3 dead 0 glances/2.5 pens
1 x Trygon with Adrenal Glands (210pts): 5-6 dead 5-6 dead 1-2 dead 0.3 glances/4.8 pens

In any case where FnP is involved, the Trygon will pull ahead due to all of it's attacks ignoring armor and IDing T3 models.

Another thing, besides just killing power that the raveners have going for them, is the fact that they can get to their targets faster than a Trygon, and can more than likely grab that all-important cover save. I like your color coded table!

Mannahnin wrote:Directing him to Hulksmash's list/reports was absolutely a good and useful thing to do, but it's one sentence out of 18 in your first two posts, most of which weren't very helpful, didn't seem to display an awareness that Tyranids have practically no guns with range over 24", and in which you made two substantial factual errors about Hive Guard shooting. Given that the Hive Guard were the main thing you were criticising, it rather undercut your credibility when you displayed that you didn't actually know the stats for them. Can you see how you kind of sabotaged your own points?

Aha! I see what you did there you sneaky devil you.

However, me misreporting the ballistic skill of a hive guard doesn't mean that I'm wrong in saying that Tyranids are uncompetitive. It just means that I misreported their ballistic skill.

*EDIT* But out of respect, I'll bow out of the thread - I've offered the constructive bits that I can.

ENKHANNA wrote:
I don't think only 2 synapse creatures for 1750 lists is a good idea, do you have some tactic for it or there is a real lack of control models, thus only 2 real targets for the enemy?, pray tell.

Synapse is not really a big issue in these lists, as both raveners and trygons should always be moving towards the enemy. Trygons, being fearless, can operate outside of synapse. Then there's always Dominion by the tervigon for greater synapse coverage if needed.

In the first list, the Parasite+gargoyles is not a high priority target, not when the trygons and raveners do so much more damage. Thus, if the opponent is focusing on the Parasite's unit, so much the better. Most likely, they would be focusing on the trygons.

In the second list, you can be sure your opponent would try to take down your flyrant. If not, then his target prioritization is not correct. Unfortunately, you're just going to have to rely on cover and FNP to keep your flyrant alive (or keep him out of LOS). But honestly, this list is less optimal than the Parasite list in that you don't have the screening unit (gargoyles) to give cover to your raveners.

In any case, if you feel you need more synapse, drop 1 hive guard or 1 ravener+1 termagant to upgrade one of your trygons to a trygon prime. I usually don't bother because he's going to get shot down real fast. Target priority should be flyrant, then any trygon primes and then trygons.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Directing him to Hulksmash's list/reports was absolutely a good and useful thing to do, but it's one sentence out of 18 in your first two posts, most of which weren't very helpful, didn't seem to display an awareness that Tyranids have practically no guns with range over 24", and in which you made two substantial factual errors about Hive Guard shooting. Given that the Hive Guard were the main thing you were criticising, it rather undercut your credibility when you displayed that you didn't actually know the stats for them. Can you see how you kind of sabotaged your own points?

Aha! I see what you did there you sneaky devil you.

However, me misreporting the ballistic skill of a hive guard doesn't mean that I'm wrong in saying that Tyranids are uncompetitive. It just means that I misreported their ballistic skill.

*EDIT* But out of respect, I'll bow out of the thread - I've offered the constructive bits that I can.

I thought all armies were competitive, it's just the player...

Dashofpepper wrote:
However, me misreporting the ballistic skill of a hive guard doesn't mean that I'm wrong in saying that Tyranids are uncompetitive. It just means that I misreported their ballistic skill.

I'd have to disagree with you about the "Tyranids are uncompetitive" part. I believe they have the tools to compete with some of the very best armies. They may not out-shoot pure-MSU lists, but I believe their resiliency will keep them in the game.

I've gone up against the new DE only 3 times with my nids, and so far, I've been able to hang with them (not that that's saying much) - 2 wins and 1 draw. Here's one of my batreps.

Another thing, besides just killing power that the raveners have going for them, is the fact that they can get to their targets faster than a Trygon, and can more than likely grab that all-important cover save. I like your color coded table!

Heh, ty

They can kinda get to their targets faster. They only have a range advantage in the turn that they charge, and you have to remember that they can't get to anything in upper level ruins period...that being said...the extra 6" on the charge is quite nice

Just for giggles, here's another chart on resilliance against some common weapons (shows number of shots to wipe the unit in and out of cover):

UNIT: Lasgun (BS3) Bolter (BS4) Splinter Rifle (BS4) Multilaser (BS3) Krak Missle (BS4)
...........................6 x Ravener: 162 54 54 65 11
...............6 x Ravener in cover: 216 108 108 87 22
............................1 x Trygon: 216 162 54 72 11
1 x Trygon in cover (good luck): 216 162 54 72 22