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 godardc wrote:
You could use just assault marines, you would get lpretty much the same results, wouldn't you ?
Do you play aggressivly or do you castle and use your deep striking part to disturb ? I could run the same list as you if I had a third pred^^
Have you been able to use the kill shot with them ?
So many questions !

Assault Marines are MUCH worse for the job, because of the damage output from Vanguard being significantly higher. Whatever falls back from the Assault Marines will have more firepower for the next turn compared to whatever the Vanguard don't kill.


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Vilehydra wrote:

godardc wrote:
I wasn't expecting this kind of lists, very interesting !
How are you using your vanguards ?

Vanguards are either used as DS chaff clearers or ablative wounds for the terminator captain. They will absolutely shred guardsmen squads (or bloodletters) if they can make that charge, however with the new FAQ change to fly it's going to be a bit more difficult for them to make effective charges. That being said, I'll still probably keep them to force opponents to dedicate something to deepstrike denial and for some flexibility.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Honestly Melta Guns are bad even with rerolls. Plasma is going to save you a good amount of points too

Yeah, meltas aren't in a good place right now points wise, but plasmas just wouldn't work for this type of list for a couple reasons.
- No guaranteed captain re-rolls. This works fine when using the Salamander CT in conjunction with two weapons that cant kill the users, but when putting out 4 shots a turn that could remove one of your guys (across 5 or 6 squads) then you should be having captain support. Leading to blobs, which leads to poor board control.
- If a plasma gunner does kill himself, the damage potential of the squad nearly halves itself. Whereas meltas can only be removed after the 3 ablative wounds go down first.
- -4 can be incredibly important in many scenarios, especially when you have the capability to shut down someones invuln.


This list began as a way to see if I could make tacs, rhinos, and meltas work. Frankly I'm still surprised it's worked as well as it has.
I'm guessing its only going to get better when CA comes out

1. The -4 doesn't matter against vehicles you should actually worry about. The -4AP you get from Plasma will do the same but the damage over time will be higher.
2. If they die, they die. Melta is THAT bad. Also the argument for needing the Captain rerolls doesn't work as you're using Salamanders, which you just said makes those shots easier to use.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. The -4 doesn't matter against vehicles you should actually worry about. The -4AP you get from Plasma will do the same but the damage over time will be higher.
2. If they die, they die. Melta is THAT bad. Also the argument for needing the Captain rerolls doesn't work as you're using Salamanders, which you just said makes those shots easier to use.

Mostly true - though most plasma is -3 AP.

Melta exceeds average damage from plasma in melta range, but half of the things you want to slag with either won't be affected by the AP because they have invuln saves or aren't something you really can or want to be that close to. With plasma being cheaper, great against elite infantry due to weight of fire, and more forgiving in positioning due to greater range, melta falls behind quick and holds little value from a competitive standpoint.

That being said, I have found success with suicide DW combi-melta teams, but not in an ultra competitive list. Like all thing 40k, a small number of inefficient choices won't tank your chances at winning.

You know what would help melta? Reducing the success of invuln saves at half range.

How can you deal with horde with such an army though? True, with Salamanders CT your high Str and ap qeapons will perform quite well. But it looks like the list lacks the raw firepower to deal with mass infantry. How would you tackle a green tide type of lists or GSC with lots of stealers amd infantry with cheap vehicles?

I like the principle behind the list, I'm just concerned about some matchups...

 jpwyrm wrote:
How can you deal with horde with such an army though? True, with Salamanders CT your high Str and ap qeapons will perform quite well. But it looks like the list lacks the raw firepower to deal with mass infantry. How would you tackle a green tide type of lists or GSC with lots of stealers amd infantry with cheap vehicles?

I like the principle behind the list, I'm just concerned about some matchups...

The list has a good amount of bolters and stormbolters to thin out the ranks. Also rhinos are pretty resilient against lots of little attacks and can be used for movement blocking. The knight can stomp some dudes out. It's hard to have a list that will handle everything.

I get that very well. I was looking more into the first iteration of your list since i don't iwn a knight myself.

I guess I could cut one tactical squad out and shuffle some gear around to add a thunderfire cannon, or maybe some scout bikers to act as fast responders.

I've mostly been stuck working on evenings the local places do game nights, haven't gotten to play much the past few months. Couple comments on the last few pages worth of topics:

How are people finding the Leviathan dread now? I mean, it's stats are still good (for SM anyways), but I worry that now that everyone is prepped for Knights, the Leviathan is just too easy to drop?

Now, I'll grant Reece is a massively better player than I am with a ton more experience, but I don't see how mortal spamming with SM even works. Devs with strats, obviously. But sniper scouts? You pay so much for that 1 sniper mortal seems like you can buy that exact same firepower in other ways. That or I'm just massively undervaluing the threat of putting those 1-2 mortals/turn on enemy chars?
(If I recall, it's what, like 120pts to get enough Scouts to average 1mortal/turn, plus add in a bit for the normal sniper shots. But compare those to the output of 3 aggressors or hellblasters and the mortal alone isn't enough to compensate vs pretty much any target. Body and deployment-wise 8 Scouts is better, but still, that's not mortal fishing.)


Lastly, I really hope GW doesn't just price drop SM 20%. It'd be better than nothing and maybe work as the Dec point fix, but long term I hope not. First, as noted, it still leaves a lot of cruddy stuff in the dex. Second, Marines are supposed to be an elite (or elitish) army. We're starting to look pretty horde by that point. GW needs to figure out how to make an elite trooper actually tough enough to last his point value in a system with a ton of high str 2 damage weapons floating around everywhere. That and kill more with bolters/basic cc.

jpwyrm wrote:How can you deal with horde with such an army though? True, with Salamanders CT your high Str and ap qeapons will perform quite well. But it looks like the list lacks the raw firepower to deal with mass infantry. How would you tackle a green tide type of lists or GSC with lots of stealers amd infantry with cheap vehicles?

I like the principle behind the list, I'm just concerned about some matchups...

jpwyrm wrote:I get that very well. I was looking more into the first iteration of your list since i don't iwn a knight myself.

I guess I could cut one tactical squad out and shuffle some gear around to add a thunderfire cannon, or maybe some scout bikers to act as fast responders.

My first posted list (the one with predators instead of knights) did go against a greentide/airforce list (1300/700 was around the point split I think). Won by tying down orkboys with rhinos and gunning down the rest with bolters with the captain/LT support (usually used to increase the predators effectiveness) to augment the massed fire, where the CT stops being as effective. I was able to wipe a squad of 30 boys a turn while the rest was being tied down. The airforce was shredded by the preds, ven dread, and meltas.
You win against hordes (shooting or melee) by controlling the board. Hordes can't fly over units. The scouts and the rhinos provide enough bodies to block significant portions of the hordes (either by denying movement or tying up units) while the bolters just concentrate one whittling down what they can.

Melee hordes can be gummed up and brought down through attrition. Shooting hordes can be locked down and be forced to continually fallback. There are some lists where its okay to be reactive against, hordes aren't one of them. Make them play your game however you can.

bort wrote:
I've mostly been stuck working on evenings the local places do game nights, haven't gotten to play much the past few months. Couple comments on the last few pages worth of topics:

How are people finding the Leviathan dread now? I mean, it's stats are still good (for SM anyways), but I worry that now that everyone is prepped for Knights, the Leviathan is just too easy to drop?

Now, I'll grant Reece is a massively better player than I am with a ton more experience, but I don't see how mortal spamming with SM even works. Devs with strats, obviously. But sniper scouts? You pay so much for that 1 sniper mortal seems like you can buy that exact same firepower in other ways. That or I'm just massively undervaluing the threat of putting those 1-2 mortals/turn on enemy chars?
(If I recall, it's what, like 120pts to get enough Scouts to average 1mortal/turn, plus add in a bit for the normal sniper shots. But compare those to the output of 3 aggressors or hellblasters and the mortal alone isn't enough to compensate vs pretty much any target. Body and deployment-wise 8 Scouts is better, but still, that's not mortal fishing.)


Lastly, I really hope GW doesn't just price drop SM 20%. It'd be better than nothing and maybe work as the Dec point fix, but long term I hope not. First, as noted, it still leaves a lot of cruddy stuff in the dex. Second, Marines are supposed to be an elite (or elitish) army. We're starting to look pretty horde by that point. GW needs to figure out how to make an elite trooper actually tough enough to last his point value in a system with a ton of high str 2 damage weapons floating around everywhere. That and kill more with bolters/basic cc.

Is your math here on scouts taking into account Guilliman and rerolling all fails?

I wasn't. Did he use Guilliman? I didn't see his list, just a quick comment on a podcast that he used Scouts and Devs for mortals. Though Guilliman also boosts all other shots too...Not having a calc handy I guess I'll trust this makes it work out better for hitting T8 and/or high invuln save targets, but I'd still bet its worse vs anything lighter. I mean, sniper scouts have been around forever and no one bothered to spam them with Guilliman before.

Yeah, Reece used bobby G. I really hate that model at this point.

bort wrote:
I wasn't. Did he use Guilliman? I didn't see his list, just a quick comment on a podcast that he used Scouts and Devs for mortals. Though Guilliman also boosts all other shots too...Not having a calc handy I guess I'll trust this makes it work out better for hitting T8 and/or high invuln save targets, but I'd still bet its worse vs anything lighter. I mean, sniper scouts have been around forever and no one bothered to spam them with Guilliman before.

Yeah, his focus wasn't just sniper scouts, though. Hellfire and Flakk gems on Devs were key as well. With the Signum and Cherub you pump out a decent number early, but then also strike again as the Dev squads start taking causalities with the relic banner nearby. Then heal up from the apothecary. That's on top of using the scouts to focus high T targets so they would reroll a larger chunk of wound rolls to fish for the MWs.

The Sternguard and scout bikes are the units Reece used to take on lighter fare, along with Libs and Bubbah G. Looks fun and synergizes well. Reece built it for Nova, which always has a lot of LoS blocking terrain. And NN changed it up by focusing on heavy Librarian use, assassins, and less bodies, but the same standard concept.

Ooh, I forgot about doing that. I use the cherub+hellfire/flakk too, but didn't think about using hellfire again in opponent's turn if a model dies and gets to fire with the banner.

Vilehydra wrote:

jpwyrm wrote:How can you deal with horde with such an army though? True, with Salamanders CT your high Str and ap qeapons will perform quite well. But it looks like the list lacks the raw firepower to deal with mass infantry. How would you tackle a green tide type of lists or GSC with lots of stealers amd infantry with cheap vehicles?

I like the principle behind the list, I'm just concerned about some matchups...

jpwyrm wrote:I get that very well. I was looking more into the first iteration of your list since i don't iwn a knight myself.

I guess I could cut one tactical squad out and shuffle some gear around to add a thunderfire cannon, or maybe some scout bikers to act as fast responders.

My first posted list (the one with predators instead of knights) did go against a greentide/airforce list (1300/700 was around the point split I think). Won by tying down orkboys with rhinos and gunning down the rest with bolters with the captain/LT support (usually used to increase the predators effectiveness) to augment the massed fire, where the CT stops being as effective. I was able to wipe a squad of 30 boys a turn while the rest was being tied down. The airforce was shredded by the preds, ven dread, and meltas.
You win against hordes (shooting or melee) by controlling the board. Hordes can't fly over units. The scouts and the rhinos provide enough bodies to block significant portions of the hordes (either by denying movement or tying up units) while the bolters just concentrate one whittling down what they can.

Melee hordes can be gummed up and brought down through attrition. Shooting hordes can be locked down and be forced to continually fallback. There are some lists where its okay to be reactive against, hordes aren't one of them. Make them play your game however you can.

Gave the first list a try, trading one tactical squad for a scout biker squad, adding storm bolters to the rhinos and heavy bolters to one of the predator. I played against a nasty GSC army about 50/50 artillery+guard and ambushing abherrant+abomination combo.

I was very surprised at how well the list performed. Though I lost the terminator captain to overwatch in a critical assault that cost me the game, it was still the best performamce I had with single faction marines since the changes to Reserves in the first FAQ.

I need to find a way to get in range of Artillery fast though. We deployed using the arrows on the short board edges, with LOS blocking terrain in the middle and some in ou own DZ. The preds could only see a couple of his tanks even and the rhinos were smoked in turn one preventing the tacticals to get near enough to threaten them.

Still, a very good game, I will be using that list again.

Hey guys. How do you rate redemptors? Two onslaughts looks like a lot of nice dakka for clearing troops. Does anyone use them and are there any good tips for buffing them?

Tpiddy wrote:
Hey guys. How do you rate redemptors? Two onslaughts looks like a lot of nice dakka for clearing troops. Does anyone use them and are there any good tips for buffing them?

It's on the fun side of things.
Basically no reason to take it over a Repulsor. Redemptor is basically always -1 to hit because it's moving.
A Dakka Repuslor is only about 90 points more and has about double the firepower and it's tougher plus it transports guys.

Understood. Thanks!

And the best part is that the repulsor is still a bad unit all things considered.

How bad is it to run Ultramarines without Gman or Primaris? I don't want to use them for fluff reasons.

I got a storm raven, devs, a bunch of tactical marines, the other ultramarine characters, a contemptor dreadnought, and a predator. Should i just stop the bleeding and start over with something better or can i make this work?

You need at minimum Calgar then.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
And the best part is that the repulsor is still a bad unit all things considered.

It's not actually all that bad - it's tons of fun and has some fun options. I really personally enjoy the build with like 5 fragstorm launchers and a ton of str 5 AP -1 shots.

The problem is that it's just a bit overcosted - just like most of the tough marine transports (Land Raiders and Flyers specifically).

Lemondish wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
And the best part is that the repulsor is still a bad unit all things considered.

It's not actually all that bad - it's tons of fun and has some fun options. I really personally enjoy the build with like 5 fragstorm launchers and a ton of str 5 AP -1 shots.

The problem is that it's just a bit overcosted - just like most of the tough marine transports (Land Raiders and Flyers specifically).

The repulsor in Deathwatch could be quite amazing. For the cost of 2CP they vomit a ton of firepower that wound most things on 4s or better.

If you take it in Codex Space Marine, it is better to be Ultramarine and park it next to Guilliman, it maybe the only way to make its own points back.

footfoe wrote:
How bad is it to run Ultramarines without Gman or Primaris? I don't want to use them for fluff reasons.

I got a storm raven, devs, a bunch of tactical marines, the other ultramarine characters, a contemptor dreadnought, and a predator. Should i just stop the bleeding and start over with something better or can i make this work?

How competitive is your meta?

If you want to play at the top tables in a very competitive environment, you need to pay close attention to things like unit efficiency and synergies. Or be a good enough player to overcome shortcomings by leveraging other advantages. But it’s pretty much about taking broken combos and exploiting every advantage you can.

For play at your average FLGS, you can get away with a lot more stuff. It sounds like you have a solid core of a TAC list. UM tactics aren’t horrible (but not The Best). You have a number of good units with decent firepower. I suspect vs. an average player, you would both have a fun game. Depending on what they brought and skill levels of the players, it could go either way.

40k has always been easy to break. This has lead to a spectrum of levels of play. You can play at top-table competitive levels, and have fun. Or fluffy lists, and have fun. But mix the two, and probably both players are going to be unhappy. Talk to your opponents. Find out what kind of game they want. Figure out what kind of game you want. Paint your models, purge some xenos, have fun.

footfoe wrote:
How bad is it to run Ultramarines without Gman or Primaris? I don't want to use them for fluff reasons.

I got a storm raven, devs, a bunch of tactical marines, the other ultramarine characters, a contemptor dreadnought, and a predator. Should i just stop the bleeding and start over with something better or can i make this work?

My lists are all UM, Devs, Tacticals and some smattering of other things like Sternguard, Rhinos, etc. now, and I get by pretty well on it. I haven't felt the need to take any special characters yet, and instead just fork over the CP to upgrade a generic Captain to a Chapter Master, and run a Lieutenant to get my re-rolls.

Right now my Devastators are leveraging lots of Plasma Cannons plus a Heavy Bolter and a Missile Launcher for the Stratagems. Then I keep them in range of the Relic Banner so they can shoot more as they die. Those guys do tons of damage for me.

Lemondish wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
And the best part is that the repulsor is still a bad unit all things considered.

It's not actually all that bad - it's tons of fun and has some fun options. I really personally enjoy the build with like 5 fragstorm launchers and a ton of str 5 AP -1 shots.

The problem is that it's just a bit overcosted - just like most of the tough marine transports (Land Raiders and Flyers specifically).

I go for the anti air stubber and take a pintle mounted stubber. So I have 3 stubbers for long range ap-1. 4 frag launchers and las talon and twin las. It's quite an offensive beast. Thing is it is just not tough enough for it's cost.

 Insectum7 wrote:

footfoe wrote:
How bad is it to run Ultramarines without Gman or Primaris? I don't want to use them for fluff reasons.

I got a storm raven, devs, a bunch of tactical marines, the other ultramarine characters, a contemptor dreadnought, and a predator. Should i just stop the bleeding and start over with something better or can i make this work?

My lists are all UM, Devs, Tacticals and some smattering of other things like Sternguard, Rhinos, etc. now, and I get by pretty well on it. I haven't felt the need to take any special characters yet, and instead just fork over the CP to upgrade a generic Captain to a Chapter Master, and run a Lieutenant to get my re-rolls.

Right now my Devastators are leveraging lots of Plasma Cannons plus a Heavy Bolter and a Missile Launcher for the Stratagems. Then I keep them in range of the Relic Banner so they can shoot more as they die. Those guys do tons of damage for me.

If you want to boost your list with characters, but avoid Gman, then Calgar could be a good option. While both his stats and buffing abilities pale in comparison to Guilliman, Calgs can fill a similar role if you want to save the points.

You're basically doing the same thing with your devs and banner that are done with the better Primaris units (which has much less stratagem support), so you aren't actually missing much. Intercessors tend to be better than tacticals, but neither are as good as scouts, so if you're finding your tacs are doing enough for you then it's worth just sticking with that.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
I go for the anti air stubber and take a pintle mounted stubber. So I have 3 stubbers for long range ap-1. 4 frag launchers and las talon and twin las. It's quite an offensive beast. Thing is it is just not tough enough for it's cost.

I haven't run it since the FAQ so I'm not sure how much prepared positions helps it (especially since I usually deployed it behind LoS anyway), but these super expensive tank/transports tend to centralize so much of your points that it seems so dangerous to commit to it in any real competitive sense.

Been seeing a lot of hordes locally, so I ran a couple dakka ones with 5 fragstorm, twin heavy bolter, double onslaughts, the extra stubber, and the baked in krakstorm. That was 5D6 bolter shots, 24 heavy bolter shots, 2 krak grenades, and the stubber at str 4 ap -1.

I wish I could convince myself to run them much, much more often. It was fun basically out-Orking the Orks. But I'm not hurting for that type of firepower...I'm hurting for effective anti-tank, and the damn thing has a target on its back the moment its deployed because its a huge chunk of points, not particularly resilient at its pricepoint, and is a transport so it's usually carrying something that benefits from being protected (which usually means its expensive...)

IMO - double repulsor and guilliman is the strongest marine force you can run.

prepared positions Can be helpful for them but like you said they were starting in cover anyways. If will be a lot easier to get them within fragstorm range turn 1 now though.

They are basically the only mobile gun platform that can get GMan where he wants to be reliably and their damage rerolling hits and wounds is insane. Keeping repulsors alive is the problem. Really what we need is a price point where we can reliably bring 3 of them. I think they need to drop 40-50 points.


And even with that price drop they need a 5++ save.

Also - Just take the 4 las version if you are hurting for multi damage.

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO - double repulsor and guilliman is the strongest marine force you can run.

prepared positions Can be helpful for them but like you said they were starting in cover anyways. If will be a lot easier to get them within fragstorm range turn 1 now though.

They are basically the only mobile gun platform that can get GMan where he wants to be reliably and their damage rerolling hits and wounds is insane. Keeping repulsors alive is the problem. Really what we need is a price point where we can reliably bring 3 of them. I think they need to drop 40-50 points.


And even with that price drop they need a 5++ save.

Also - Just take the 4 las version if you are hurting for multi damage.

They don't need both a price drop and a 5++, one of the reasons lascannons etc don't work is the prevalence of invulnerable saves which required mortal wounds to fix which has now lead to everyone without a FNP rule being susceptible to mortal wound spam.
A 2+ maybe but the game needs less invulnerable saves and less mortal wounds.

However most marine vehicals need a price drop or 2+ save as they are over paying heavily right now Compaired to IG and Aeldari.

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO - double repulsor and guilliman is the strongest marine force you can run.

prepared positions Can be helpful for them but like you said they were starting in cover anyways. If will be a lot easier to get them within fragstorm range turn 1 now though.

They are basically the only mobile gun platform that can get GMan where he wants to be reliably and their damage rerolling hits and wounds is insane. Keeping repulsors alive is the problem. Really what we need is a price point where we can reliably bring 3 of them. I think they need to drop 40-50 points.


And even with that price drop they need a 5++ save.

Also - Just take the 4 las version if you are hurting for multi damage.

They don't need both a price drop and a 5++, one of the reasons lascannons etc don't work is the prevalence of invulnerable saves which required mortal wounds to fix which has now lead to everyone without a FNP rule being susceptible to mortal wound spam.
A 2+ maybe but the game needs less invulnerable saves and less mortal wounds.

However most marine vehicals need a price drop or 2+ save as they are over paying heavily right now Compaired to IG and Aeldari.

There is something worth shooting a reroll hit and wounds lascannon at in every army. Yeah - invo saves are out of control. Plus they aren't being properly charged for. Lascannons are still great though.

Lemondish wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

footfoe wrote:
How bad is it to run Ultramarines without Gman or Primaris? I don't want to use them for fluff reasons.

I got a storm raven, devs, a bunch of tactical marines, the other ultramarine characters, a contemptor dreadnought, and a predator. Should i just stop the bleeding and start over with something better or can i make this work?

My lists are all UM, Devs, Tacticals and some smattering of other things like Sternguard, Rhinos, etc. now, and I get by pretty well on it. I haven't felt the need to take any special characters yet, and instead just fork over the CP to upgrade a generic Captain to a Chapter Master, and run a Lieutenant to get my re-rolls.

Right now my Devastators are leveraging lots of Plasma Cannons plus a Heavy Bolter and a Missile Launcher for the Stratagems. Then I keep them in range of the Relic Banner so they can shoot more as they die. Those guys do tons of damage for me.

If you want to boost your list with characters, but avoid Gman, then Calgar could be a good option. While both his stats and buffing abilities pale in comparison to Guilliman, Calgs can fill a similar role if you want to save the points.

You're basically doing the same thing with your devs and banner that are done with the better Primaris units (which has much less stratagem support), so you aren't actually missing much. Intercessors tend to be better than tacticals, but neither are as good as scouts, so if you're finding your tacs are doing enough for you then it's worth just sticking with that.

I see the value in the toughness of Intercessors but two things win out for me with Tacticals in comparison. The first is obviously the access to Specials/Heavies, which gives the Tacticals an edge when fighting higher value targets. The second is access to Transports, which gives them some more interesting abilities on the tabletop while Intercessors have to huff it anywhere. The play using Rhinos and squads can allow for some unique opportunities.

As a side note, one thing I've noticed locally is that nobody mixes Primaris and standard marines. I wonder what GW thinks of that.

Are Veterans with Storm Bolters and STorm shields good as a "body Guard" Unit ot protect characters?

If so, I am looking at bits bashing, i notice the stormshield and storm bolter are both right handed weapons. ANyone have any idea how to model this WYSIWYG?