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Yeah, it is unfortunately common for "iconic" units from specific Craftworlds to not really want their CW trait.

Wraithguard don't really benefit from Iyanden at all, save 1 Strat and Relic
Windriders do NOT want to charge and the Shuricannon was arguable the better weapon for them (because Battle Focus) prior to Scatter lasers getting a points drop.
Most Aspect warriors don't have Shuriken weapons to benefit from Biel-tan.
Ulthwe doesn't really do anything (meaningful) for Psykers and Black Guardians

Rangers seem to be the only "iconic" unit that mathc their CW trait, and that mostly because Alaitoc is the best trait

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I would say that the best math hammer Windrider is the one armed with twin catapults. Except for maybe T8 opponents the catapults do more work for their points.

It is strange that GW doesn't do something for the iconic units but then again it is GW.

And to be honest I really don't see the special detachment rules for wraith units to be all that wonderful. That's not to say it doesn't have some use. I just don't think that the benefit is as good or better than the cost.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I would say that the best math hammer Windrider is the one armed with twin catapults. Except for maybe T8 opponents the catapults do more work for their points.

It is strange that GW doesn't do something for the iconic units but then again it is GW.

And to be honest I really don't see the special detachment rules for wraith units to be all that wonderful. That's not to say it doesn't have some use. I just don't think that the benefit is as good or better than the cost.

Mathhammer means jack all when the unit carrying it has to make a suicide run to use their armament.

Sterling191 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I would say that the best math hammer Windrider is the one armed with twin catapults. Except for maybe T8 opponents the catapults do more work for their points.

It is strange that GW doesn't do something for the iconic units but then again it is GW.

And to be honest I really don't see the special detachment rules for wraith units to be all that wonderful. That's not to say it doesn't have some use. I just don't think that the benefit is as good or better than the cost.

Mathhammer means jack all when the unit carrying it has to make a suicide run to use their armament.

Exactly. The Cannon comes close enough to the math of the catapult against most targets, but has range enough not to die immediately.
Basically, 3 WRs with Cats might do more damage per turn, but they get far less turns. Run the math on 1 turn using Cats vs 2 turns using Cannons.

Scatter lasers being cheaper that Shuricannons and having even more range pushes them out as the better option, which lends well to being Saim-Hann (to my original point). But I still like Shuricannons as they mesh very well with Battle Focus (one of the few unit that gets the most out of this) and doesn't require them to be Saim-Hann to be at peak efficiency, thus allowing them to be Alaitoc for yet more survivability that the desperately need

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So, which is the better non-Saim-Hann unit a unit of bikes with scatter lasers or cannons(from a mathhammer viewpoint)?

The reason I ask is that I don't have enough FA to make a Saim-Hann detachment but I do have 6 magnetized bikes that I'd like to use.

Sidelining Saim-hann, Scatbikes only really benefit from Alaitoc. Shuricannon bikes benefit from Alaitoc and Beil-Tan.

And for feths sake stop asking about mathhammer.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I don't think you can have a Ynnari Wraithost Detachment sadly. Also I don't think a 10 man unit of Wraithguard/blades is a good idea without all the Craftworlds defensive buffs (probably isn't a good idea anyway!).

I'm only taking a Supreme Command Detachment so that the Wraithknight can benefit from the Wraith Host rules, so if you don't want the Knight you might be better making a Battalion the Wraith Host formation for the extra CPs.

Yeah, I concur on the wraithhost specialist detachment. It is likely craftworlds only - I don’t see it being ruled playable by Ynnari.

I’ve been thinking a lot about Wraithbois lately too. Specifically axe bois, as they are some of my favorites, but I don’t see how they would be superior in an Ynnari detachment. They really like to have spells like protect, quicken and the like cast on them, and I don’t see how they would be better with Ynnari rules.

@Sterling- sorry to offend. That's the way I've always seen it referred to on Dakka so that's the way I tend to think of it.

Are Warp Spiders any good?

 Asmodas wrote:

Yeah, I concur on the wraithhost specialist detachment. It is likely craftworlds only - I don’t see it being ruled playable by Ynnari.

Yeah, the specialist detachments need a stratagem to use and Ynnari are specifically excluded from using any non-Ynnari stratagems to affect Ynnari units.

 Asmodas wrote:

I’ve been thinking a lot about Wraithbois lately too. Specifically axe bois, as they are some of my favorites, but I don’t see how they would be superior in an Ynnari detachment. They really like to have spells like protect, quicken and the like cast on them, and I don’t see how they would be better with Ynnari rules.

To my mind, an important aspect of Ynnari is that they have no movement abilities. With that in mind, it seems that they really want stuff like Shining Spears, rather than Wraith units.

For the wraith host detathcement Im going to give this a try when i make another 5 wraiths:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [53 PL, 7CP, 1,013pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Craftworld Attribute: Iyanden: Stoic Endurance

Detachment CP [5CP]

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Wraith Host

+ HQ +

Farseer [6 PL, 110pts]: 2. Doom, 4. Executioner, Craftworlds Warlord, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

Spiritseer [3 PL, 65pts]: 3. Enhance/Drain, Shuriken Pistol

Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: 5. Quicken/Restrain, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Storm Guardians [3 PL, 76pts]
. 6x Storm Guardian - Aeldari Blade
. Storm Guardian - Special Weapon: Fusion Gun
. Storm Guardian - Special Weapon: Fusion Gun

+ Elites +

Bonesinger [4 PL, 70pts]

Wraithblades [20 PL, 350pts]: Ghostswords, 10x Wraithblade

+ Dedicated Transport +

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 167pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines

++ Total: [53 PL, 7CP, 1,013pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

In case its not obvious -
The idea is to plow the serpent upfield and have the blades in webway strike and maybe the rangers hiding depending on circuimstances.
Turn 2; unload the troops, put blades on the field, drop seer council to ensure quicken goes off and do the relevant psychic shoot the fusion and shuriken and go to town, tag the line in cc drop supreme disdain and drown their lines in blood mauahah...

I played with 5 blades today and got enhance off as well as supreme disdain and it was glorious. Same but with a full strenght unit of 10 and psytronome... yiekes!!!
Although its not perfect i think its pretty decent. The fact thats it doubles up as battalion seems to me much more valid variation than anything else I tried with supreme command/spearheds and knight etc. I thought of another variant but your realy need scaratch knight and it gets to nearly 1200 points for one detatchement and is a bit mad...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Are Warp Spiders any good?

I havent played with them but I think they are really cool and underrated. Has to be alitoic for the -2 to hit and with lfr giving them -3 makes for great screen protection for characters buuuut 12" rannge is very poor..

Shadow specters are just much better on paper IMO. Have some ordered so Im looking forward tot hat. If im going to mess with resin models might as well be specters...

 Asmodas wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I don't think you can have a Ynnari Wraithost Detachment sadly. Also I don't think a 10 man unit of Wraithguard/blades is a good idea without all the Craftworlds defensive buffs (probably isn't a good idea anyway!).

I'm only taking a Supreme Command Detachment so that the Wraithknight can benefit from the Wraith Host rules, so if you don't want the Knight you might be better making a Battalion the Wraith Host formation for the extra CPs.

Yeah, I concur on the wraithhost specialist detachment. It is likely craftworlds only - I don’t see it being ruled playable by Ynnari.

I’ve been thinking a lot about Wraithbois lately too. Specifically axe bois, as they are some of my favorites, but I don’t see how they would be superior in an Ynnari detachment. They really like to have spells like protect, quicken and the like cast on them, and I don’t see how they would be better with Ynnari rules.

I wasn't thinking of using the wraith host as Ynnari, just the Supreme Command Detachment.

Yvraine, 2 wraithseers and Wraithblades (either 10 of them, or 5 in a serpent).

Yvraine takes the 5+ invuln to throw onto the sword wraiths, and then either word of the phoenix to act as an apothecary or the doom in assault power. the wraith seers get the cool relics and warlord traits.

yep, I could just run them as a spirithost and use the 2CP strat to give the swords a 4+ invuln from the spiritseer. With the psytronome and reroll charge trait, it certainly is tempting.

Wraithblades that always re-roll to wound (duplicate sources of meleedoom) and re-roll 1s to hit don't seem too bad. I like the idea of their transport being Wave Serpents with 5++ -1 to hit when advancing.

What are the best anti-chaff CWE units, bearing in mind orks are T4?

Scatlaser on bikes or war walkers? Guardian blobs? Swooping hawks seem very glassy.

And can I ask, has anyone had any luck with scorpions since their reprice? 64pts with claw exarch is cheap enough not to be missed in opening exchanges, and if deployed against units in cover, with disdain Strat, have a bit of punch to them.

Tempest launchers are pretty decent imo. You can look at twin aeldari missle Launchers as well as shadow weavers, night spinners, and fire prisms.

I think the best would be Lynx with sonic lance but its fw and very pricy points wise . Its 3d6 auto hitting, wounding infantry on 2+ ap -1.

Spiders like a few Eldar units have cool rules but when you play them you can't but wish they would just do more damage. They are to harass objectives and shrug off enemy shooting sitting in cover with their -1 on.

Scorps are also to harass objectives and generate points, if you roll hot they are more dangerous than you might expect but they will be staying at that place you infiltrated them for most of the game probably.

Hawks are the same as those two honestly, just different flavour and you can keep your distance.

Bikes with catapults are pretty hilarious, and actually do like, double damage Spiders do. Dump 9 dudes from Webway and if you survive, you can fall back and shoot without using stratagem and fly away '22. With their T4 they do not eat lasguns and autoguns as easy as Guardians. They do not provide you with CP either however.

I think the problem with harassment units in 40k is you only have so many turns. Either you kill the target so you can take their objective, or you don't (e.g. you only "harass" them).

It still is good to have a cheap unit to drop on some 2 kroot hounds running for objective and trying to do linebreaker and stuff, so you want some in your army.

The Swooping Hawks from my experience are the best unit for that though. They are cheap, not a big threat, most mobile of them all and don't need to be in close combat.

 grouchoben wrote:
What are the best anti-chaff CWE units, bearing in mind orks are T4?

Scatlaser on bikes or war walkers? Guardian blobs? Swooping hawks seem very glassy.

And can I ask, has anyone had any luck with scorpions since their reprice? 64pts with claw exarch is cheap enough not to be missed in opening exchanges, and if deployed against units in cover, with disdain Strat, have a bit of punch to them.

This was my issue and why I added harlie skyweavers in for both AT and good anti-horde. I also used Shadow Weavers and Dire Avengers. Scatter laser armed warwalkers also look reasonable.

I like swooping hawks and guardians for chaff clearing / harassment myself. Problem is they dont show up until t2. But dropping a squad of 10 hawks and 20 guardians on the opponents front line with a farseer / warlock both on bike to buff them as needed. Seems to work pretty well on guard, but i feel there could be other uses for these guys as well. Any thoughts?

Played some more games with triple hemlocks and scatter serpents and fortune/protect spears. Spears stacked with defense buffs are still amazing. Wiped a unit of genestealers, shrugged off a charge by buffed up aberrants like it was nothing, then proceeded to wipe out a cult tank commander and a few more infantry squads. Scatter serpents are a nightmare for an opponent to deal with since you can kite all day from 36" while laughing as enemy heavy weapons bounce off your serpent shield. And of course, an air wing of hemlocks is just a huge bully both in the shooting phase and psychic phase. The ability to casually project 3 psychic denies deep into enemy deployment cannot be understated.

The fliers seem like such an auto- take don't they.?? They are sooo good.. Kind of annoys me.

I have not got any for my army. I'm stubbornly trying to come up with lists that don't include them. But I would not attempt a tournament without them.
Definitely getting some.
I have a bad feeling they will be nerfed in the next update...Probably right as I finish painting some

It is pointless to worry, just think of it as creating a beautiful collection. Dark Reapers and Shining Spears sucked for 10 years yet here we are.

For sure. I don't strictly look at it that way. There are other units that excite me more. For example Shadow specters which I just got so I might just jump on those especially with the new paints. Support weapons and night spinners/prisms & bikes interst me a lot. However.... However.... I kind want to get the boring chaff out of the way. I am trying to finish my troops first. Got two squads of Storm guardians, 10 more guardians and 10 dire avengers. right at the top of the pile

The fliers are somewhere towards the back of the que.

Deep striking two blobs of 20 guardians is still incredibly lethal since there's often no counterplay. 3CP to shred enemy screens is totally worth it.

Yeah for sure, It seems very effective. However I don't know if I have it in me to paint 20 more guardians on top the 10 I still need to paint for my first 20 man blob lol. Maybe if I made them ulthwe because that would take minutes lol. I've been toying with snipy lists on battle scribe. I Like the idea of 10 squad strong alitoic ranger squad with snipy autarch with reaper launcher and illic.

hmmm I wonder what two battalions of 10 man squads would play like lol....Outputting some mad MW on paper. I will never have that many rangers to try though haha. Wonder if anyone has tried that sort of madness?

I've been tempted to try Illic and a Mark of the Incomparable Hunter Reaper Launcher Autarch, but never gotten round to it. I think it will be very match up dependent. When facing lots of snipers I can sometimes easily hide my characters out of LoS and never worry about it. There is some value in forcing characters to hide, but 2-3 units of 5 Rangers can achieve the same effect.

There are several units available in 40k that can snipe characters. The reaper autarch with the trait is one of the worst by far. Compare it to a GSC sanctus, or an IK shieldbreaker missile, or even a vindicare assassin. It's far more expensive than all of those things, and has no way to get past the invuln which will almost certainly exist on that low wound support character you are targeting in 90% of matchups. Without any way to deal mortal wounds, trigger perils of the warp, or ignore invulns, a reaper autarch is pretty much just an extremely overpriced dark reaper that can't be efficiently buffed and can't reliably deal enough damage to perform its intended role.

A Reaper Autarch isn't a dedicated character sniper really, you just tack the gun and trait onto him to give him an extra role, the gun is only 20-something points and Eldar WL traits mostly suck, and you barely have to commit anything to give him the capability. He can just do what he normally does while plinking away, probably can't kill off much by himself, but when you combine him with damage from Ranger squads etc it can add up to a useful kill sometimes.

Mine has been lucky at killing off IG minor characters, Primaris psykers in particular die pretty easily with no saves, you just gotta hit and wound twice.

 slave.entity wrote:
There are several units available in 40k that can snipe characters. The reaper autarch with the trait is one of the worst by far. Compare it to a GSC sanctus, or an IK shieldbreaker missile, or even a vindicare assassin. It's far more expensive than all of those things, and has no way to get past the invuln which will almost certainly exist on that low wound support character you are targeting in 90% of matchups. Without any way to deal mortal wounds, trigger perils of the warp, or ignore invulns, a reaper autarch is pretty much just an extremely overpriced dark reaper that can't be efficiently buffed and can't reliably deal enough damage to perform its intended role.

All that being said, three Saim-Han Reaper Autarchs on bikes make for a hilarious Windrider Host specialist detachment.

Reaper/Banshee/Lance Autarch Skyrunners are my favorite Eldar unit. Bike Autarchs in general have always been a favorite of mine, even when Farseers have been a better go-to choice for a minimum HQ.

The Character sniping trait is just icing on the cake. Autarch Skyrunners are one of the few decetn multi-purpose Eldar units. They are cheap enough that you can have them stay in your back field supporting units with their reroll 1s aura and taking pot-shots with the Launcher. Fast enough to keep up with other unit to ensure key units get the buff and be in position to counter-charge to protect those units.

I always have at least 1 such unit in my lists, and often 2-3. They're great fun.

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