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NOTE TO ALL This is my list. You can agree or disagree, but please don't call me an idiot or some snyde remark. I have very weird tastes.

Hey yall,

To celebrate my belated 2,000 post, I have decided to make a list of my top 10 beginner armies. Why top 10? Because of one thing:

NUMBER 11: ANY LOYALIST SPACE MARINE
This includes BT, GK, BA, DA, C:SM, BA, and SW.

Why, you may ask, Why is Chowderhead not even including the Marines in this list? Simple. Marines should not be a beginner army. The game is focused around tactics, strategy, and branching out into new and exciting armies. Space Marines just shoot from afar of punch stuff. They do it mediocrely, and will do it all the time, with no variation. And really, if you have an army that only has a 1/3 chance to taking a wound per shot, with BS4 on everyone, why play another army?

And the fact that the intimidation factor is ramped up for SM. For the same points as 6 tactical squads, or 60 Marines, one can have 180 Orks. 180 Orks! Could you imagine how scared some newbie would be to fight that massive of a force? And in a average, 1500 point game, the Orks can field more than 200 models, while the SM would have trouble fitting in 60 with all the vehicles and HQ's they have to buy.

But Chowderhead, what about the GK?

That's a simple answer. I haven't read the codex, and do not want to. If that book ever gets near my Ork codex, I'll stab it with a choppa.

So that's 1 down, 10 to go. Whew, this is going to be a long one.

So, wait, are you saying "Top armies, explained for beginners" or "Top armies that are for beginners?"

Either way, I doubt Space marines would be on the bottom for either.

It's for Top armies for beginners to start with.

I personally think that SM are a poor choice for a starter army. But that's just me.

There are only like 10 armies, how would a top 10 list be useful?
Also SM are easy and cheap for beginners so I dunno what you're on about.

ph34r wrote:There are only like 10 armies, how would a top 10 list be useful?

Because some people are to lazy to do all 16 armies.

Also SM are easy and cheap for beginners so I dunno what you're on about.

Easy, yes, cheap, no. There are alot of cheaper ways to get to 1500 points and still be good with a beginner's army. Take C:SM for example.

So why aren't Chaos marines included in this blanket frown? They also are a bunch of t4 bs4 power armored d00ds. Reading your OP they seem to have all the same attributes that caused you not to recommend loyalist? And I didn't see their abbreviation in your list.

Also it seems like asking a new player to start with an army like Eldar is a very risky proposition. I did that, and I turned out OK. But I also relied heavily on advice from vaious forums to get a decent army list, and took plenty of lumps while learning to play the game. Playing an army with such a steep learning curve, with many seemingly hopeless defeats, can be extremely discouraging for a new player...

Chowderhead wrote:

ph34r wrote:There are only like 10 armies, how would a top 10 list be useful?

Because some people are to lazy to do all 16 armies.

Also SM are easy and cheap for beginners so I dunno what you're on about.

Easy, yes, cheap, no. There are alot of cheaper ways to get to 1500 points and still be good with a beginner's army. Take C:SM for example.

So you're saying there's a cheaper way of getting 1500 points and having it be a good starter army aside from Space Marines, and you use Space Marines as an example? What? This reeks of pointlessness.

ph34r wrote:There are only like 10 armies, how would a top 10 list be useful?

Because top 10s tend to be a decending list, from worst to best, not just a list of 10 things in any order.

There is actually only 9 armies in total that does not include space marines, 8 if you count SoBs as a form of marines. And of those, 3 of them have a huge learning curve (Eldar and Daemons).

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:There is actually only 9 armies in total that does not include space marines, 8 if you count SoBs as a form of marines. And of those, 3 of them have a huge learning curve (Eldar and Daemons).

There are 10. IG, SoB, Necrons, Tyr, DE, Eldar, Tau, CSM, Orks, and Daemons.

I said loyalist SM. CSM will be on the list.

Right...

"I like that these power armoured dudes can fill a variety of roles, look awesome, and have a lower model count than other armies."

"No, you're just a n00b, what you want is *insert other codex*, it has a steep learning curve, requires more painting skills to look good, and has a higher model count. Trust me."

Hrm....I wonder if reporting a thread for being useless when it hasn't broken any rules would get it deleted....

OP:

1. You appear to lack fundamental understanding of what makes a codex competitive or powerful.

2. You appear to lack a fundamental understanding of Space Marines and their various intricacies.

3. You appear to lack a fundamental understanding of what advice is and isn't useful to new players. Ranking your top 10 favorite armies is fine. Dressing it up as advice that you want people to follow when it is off to such a horrible, biased, and uninformed start is not fine.

Guys, chill out and leave Chowder alone.

I hate it when this happens.. yeah, most of us (to varying extents) have our own reasons for finding this thread silly/stupid/etc. So, you comment, have a go at Chowder because he dared to make a thread saying "Hey, maybe Space Marines don't need to be the best starter army, and here's why I think that!"

Anyone who isn't going to help him do this, please leave now.

Anyway, where were we? Now because I've used enough of this post up already, I'll just sum up my thoughts like this:

1) Chaos Space Marines ()
2) Orks
3) Imperial Guard
4) Necrons
5) Tyranids
6) Tau Empire
7) Dark Eldar
8) Eldar
9) Chaos Daemons
10) Sisters of Battle

Edit: Note that this list was drawn up very hastily, and in-depth thought was not applied.

Carry on, properly this time. I'll just hope that there's no more unnecessary complaining directed at either Chowder or myself in this thread from this point on.

Constructive posting, people!

To be fair, if he were to split armies by *type* rather than just codex, you could get a pretty meaty top-10 list. IG alone has what, 3 or 4 very distinct archetypes? I'd feel comfortable saying that a Mech-Vet list is probably an easier starter army than a powerblob infantry list, if for no other reason than the brutal logistics of painting 100+ dudes.

That said, I can't help but wonder where this is heading if he's lumped Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templar, Vanilla, etc together into one uber-honorary mention...

This is just "top 10 starter armies (MeQ excluded)". Thread title should be changed accordingly.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

Constructive posting, people!

Constructive does NOT equal positive, you know. Some posts actually HAVE been constructive in this thread.

The fact is that Marines(from the basic Codex) ARE the best starter army because they're the most forgiving army with little to no learning curve.

Marines don't "just shoot from afar or punch stuff". In fact, they're as or more maneuverable, tactical, and varied than many of the other books that will be on this list(Guard, Tau, and Necrons come to mind).

Well Platuan, you are certainly, entirely, correct with that post. However, in the context of this thread, constructive posting would be to help Chowder achieve the purpose of this thread - to decide upon the 10 best, non-loyalist-marine-starter-armies there are, not complain to him that we think his idea is stupid/make assumptions about him, and generally act in a negative manner.

Detail-picking aside, this thread is, as I've said before, a place for people to discuss and help Chowder build his list of all the best none-loyalist-Space-Marine starter armies, from 1 to 10.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:Guys, chill out and leave Chowder alone.

I hate it when this happens.. yeah, most of us (to varying extents) have our own reasons for finding this thread silly/stupid/etc. So, you comment, have a go at Chowder because he dared to make a thread saying "Hey, maybe Space Marines don't need to be the best starter army, and here's why I think that!"

Anyone who isn't going to help him do this, please leave now.

See, if he actually posted a thread called "Hey, maybe Space Marines don't need to be the best starter army, and here's why I think that!" and gave his opinion on why that was true, then this wouldn't be an issue. But to make a horribly uninformed OP that just seethes with misdirected anger doesn't exactly reflect this.

Yes, his title wasn't all that great. Yes, neither was his introduction amazing. But lets all stop discussing the finer points of "posting moralities", leave the thread alone, and let Chowder sort it out when he next reads it.

Either that, or post in the manner he intended.

It's mainly the title of "Top 10 but excluding marines", which left him with only 10 armies, which is hardly top 10.

In anycase, Personally I would think CSM would be a good starting point. Unlike the Vanilla dex there isnt much stuff that's "out there" and most of their units are more forgiving than vanilla (basic CSM can gunline or CC as needed, and have some pretty decent choices, while Oblits speak for themselves and CSM get the cheapest land raiders).

If MEQs are not counted, then the three horde armies (Nids, Orks and Guard). Given a high model count number casualties usually wont be the end of you, and there's some decent flex to all three so you're not shoehorned into a particular style (especially Orks, but Nids can decently do range, and Guard blobs do have CC potential there). Everything else though I'd think some to alot of experience is needed, since they will punish you for bad decisions.

As a beginner (I'm joining an escalation league next week!) who chose SM (mostly because I started painting them way back in 3rd, but never played), I'm interested to see what the "other" top 10 ends up being. Not so much to replace marines (I bought piles of stuff to paint back then, so the idea of a new army before dealing with them had my wife making frowny faces), but as a starter point for a potential next army.

Nonsense. Sisters are undoubtedly the worst beginner army. Not only are the models unusually expensive, not available in most stores, difficult to transport, but they require substantial amounts of skill to use effectively on the battlefield.

Wait what, SM are the best starter army, in modeling, painting and playing. Some armys beat SM in 1 of them, but no army beats SM in all of them.

Noir wrote:Wait what, SM are the best starter army, in modeling, painting and playing. Some armys beat SM in 1 of them, but no army beats SM in all of them.

I do believe you have completely misunderstood the point of this thread.

1-UP wrote:To be fair, if he were to split armies by *type* rather than just codex, you could get a pretty meaty top-10 list. IG alone has what, 3 or 4 very distinct archetypes? I'd feel comfortable saying that a Mech-Vet list is probably an easier starter army than a powerblob infantry list, if for no other reason than the brutal logistics of painting 100+ dudes.

That said, I can't help but wonder where this is heading if he's lumped Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templar, Vanilla, etc together into one uber-honorary mention...

I think a thread discussing the top 10 types would be extremely helpful to new and veteran players alike. I wouldn't even stop it at top ten, maybe go all the way to 20, I'm sure there's plenty of lists to make the...well...list.

Necroshea wrote:

1-UP wrote:To be fair, if he were to split armies by *type* rather than just codex, you could get a pretty meaty top-10 list. IG alone has what, 3 or 4 very distinct archetypes? I'd feel comfortable saying that a Mech-Vet list is probably an easier starter army than a powerblob infantry list, if for no other reason than the brutal logistics of painting 100+ dudes.

That said, I can't help but wonder where this is heading if he's lumped Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templar, Vanilla, etc together into one uber-honorary mention...

I think a thread discussing the top 10 types would be extremely helpful to new and veteran players alike. I wouldn't even stop it at top ten, maybe go all the way to 20, I'm sure there's plenty of lists to make the...well...list.

The problem arises when people begin to discuss the validity of certain 'lists' as worthwhile 'lists'. What qualifies a seperate build from another build? It would only degenerate into general bickering...oddly similar to this thread...

Chowderhead, after reading your OP, I'm inclined to disagree with you. Marines are a more forgiving army than, say, eldar (both rainbow and dark), and it is this that attracts newer players to them. It is easy to dismiss Marines out of hand, claiming that they don't need tactics and strategy, but this is simply not true. It would be impossible for a new player to win with any army without these two things, and marines are no exception. They merely offer players more breathing room (margin for error) because of their good stats.

You also claim that the only thing marines can do is mediocre gunline. You have just shoehorned six codices into one generalization. I wouldn't call razorspam, SM bikers, Vulkan lists, TWC, or DoA either gunlines or mediocre. While they may not offer wildly different statlines, the codices have distinct builds and playstyles which allow players to branch off into other codices, not inhibit them.

There is an intimidation factor, but it cuts both ways. It is easier for a newer player to come to grips with the rules with his 60 marines than it is with his 180 Orks. It's also easier for him to buy 60 marines than it is to buy 180 Orks, roughly $200 easier, actually (and probably by design). You speak about how intimidating 180 Orks are; have you considered how intimidated a new player might be when playing as the aforementioned 180 Orks? It is easy to get overwhelmed when you're learning the ropes, and tripling your model count does not make things any easier.

My $00.02

Edit for coherency...

Perhaps I should quote my own explanation posts..

@Chowder, might be a good idea to amend this thread's title and OP if you want it to go anywhere..

Chowderhead wrote:So that's 1 down, 10 to go. Whew, this is going to be a long one.

Then how about getting to it, Chowderhead? #10 an d#9? Ya know, before the thread is full of people trashing the title, when there's no substance to trash?

Oop. Too late.

How about a top 10 army builds for beginners? Try to include armies that require a minimum of memorization or weirdness to start up, things that are relatively easy to recognize and applicable to other armies.

MEQs and GEQs pretty much all use the same loadout of Imperial weapons, so either some kind of Marine army or Guard army is always a good choice as a beginner who learns the weapon stats and capabilities of Imperial weapons knows the stats and capabilities of 6 or 7 Codices out there.

Another factor is model count. You want a relatively low model count for a beginner, especially if they ever plan on having a fully painted army. Some of you may disagree, but assembling a fully painted army is a skill that one learns over years of war gaming. Basically, how do you paint 50-200 models reasonably well in a reasonable amount of time? To that point, price is also a factor, and a minimum of conversion skills required is another issue. Newer players aren't going to be able to field armies that rely heavily on converted minis.

Given the price and availability issues, I think most new players start with either Space Marines or Orks out of the AoBR sets. You can have a full Ork horde army for around $150-200 using just AoBR sets.