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H.B.M.C. wrote:

Archonate wrote:That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex.

Why?

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but we already have units that are slightly different between Codices despite sharing the same names (Storm Shields and Land Raiders, to name but a few), so why should the Harlequins be exempt from that?

Games workshop are run by Xenos and Chaos hating Chimpanzees with ADHD?

Not only that, but in situations like the Eldar or SM where the same unit is present in multiple codecies, it makes it impossible for GW to balance units if they have to keep them identical.

im for one is so glade that the new archon is convertable with the wych sprues and tthe warrior sprues which means converting up any of the new specail characters would be easy im planning to buying 2 archon and convert them to be specail chaarcter and proberly buy a 3rd one to be a normal archon

chaos0xomega wrote:... it makes it impossible for GW to balance units if they have to keep them identical.

Yeah. I'm sure that's the reason.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Archonate wrote:That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex.

Why?

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but we already have units that are slightly different between Codices despite sharing the same names (Storm Shields and Land Raiders, to name but a few), so why should the Harlequins be exempt from that?

That's why I said 'should', and not 'will'.
I'm exercising faith that GW knows if they give something extra to Harlies in the DE Codex, there will be a FAQ explosion and rampant illegal tournament lists of innocent confused players.

The new Dark Eldar models haven't even been released yet, and already there's a discussion about what we're not going to get

There is no 'never' when it comes to filling model gaps in codexes. They can clearly do a model for anything if they want to, and presumably have lots of models designed and sitting on the shelf awaiting a decision on whether to release them. It's just a question of when, and with so many other more pressing demands on their limited resources (new Grey Knights, probably a revised Necron range, presumably new Tau as well) it might be a while before we see some of the gaps filled. And a special character which requires a large and elaborate model, like Vect (or Wazzdakka, the Ork special character on a bike), would be low priority.

It looks to me as though GW are using the plastic boxed games to fill some gaps in their model ranges, in particular the HQ models. The Orks and Skaven now have plastic HQ models on that basis. It's not ideal - the plastic Warboss is pretty average, and it's difficult to make these models look uniquge - but given the relatively low cost of the boxed sets (and the fact that you can usually get a specific model from these sets through trades), it will tide us over for a while. I doubt HQ multi-part kits sell as well as units or vehicles, so they willl tend to do them once everything else in the range is done. But I don't think we've seen the end of them. An Ork Warboss/Big Mek kit would be very versatile, and would (I think) be popular, assuming the Ork stuff is selling well. I'd guess they'd want to see how DE sales went before they produced an Archon along those lines.

chaos0xomega wrote:Not only that, but in situations like the Eldar or SM where the same unit is present in multiple codecies, it makes it impossible for GW to balance units if they have to keep them identical.

That's a good point.
But Harlies are Harlies and behave in the same way independent of the codex.
For me, Harlies are not a must-have in the DE 'dex.
However, I'm curious to see if the Venom is similar to that in Gav's experimental Harlie codex.

wuestenfux wrote:But Harlies are Harlies and behave in the same way independent of the codex.

Must they?

Background-wise: I can easily imagine a scenario where the Troupe tailors the stories they perform for different audiences, as their great Harlequin understands that different groups will fail to understand the lesson unless it is presented in a certain way. For Craftworld Eldar, that means re-enacting the mythic cycles and great wars and heroes of the past. This way every Eldar can see themselves as repeating the cycle of past victories and learning lessons from past defeats... in effect, they subsume their identity and individual desires into a mythic role to perform for the good of their craftworld. Such a presentation would surely be unpalatable for Dark Eldar audiences, so if Harlequins are allowed to perform for Dark Eldar then they must adapt their stories. If the Harlequins are able to adapt their primary role (performing, teaching) to fit their audience, then surely they can adapt their secondary role (fighting) to fit their audience.

Rules-wise: As the two codeces use completely independent rules, there's no need for them to match.

The other thing to remember is we still don't know what the new fluff of the Dark Eldar is, so speculating on how the Harli's interact with them is a bit pointless.

Have to wait and see, but practicality and rules balance should take precedence here. Harlies are not really quite right anymore due to the age of their codex; not amending them for the current balance of the game would be absurd.

Those with a fluff-based attachment to the rules being indentical, try this: use your imagination. Isn't that the whole point of attaching to fluff and such anyway? If the Harlies are in there EXACTLY as they are now in the Eldar dex, they'll be EXACTLY as subpar a choice as in the Eldar dex, and as a result have no real purpose for being in the dex BEYOND fluff ... and that seems silly.

Cross your fingers, in fact, that they ARE better and thus different; the more competitively selectable every option in the dex is, the more it will naturally de-emphasize the BS division that exists between perceived "fluffbunnies" and perceived "WAACers." It won't happen, probably, but if every possible bulid in a dex was more or less competitive, we'd all be in a happier place. Keeping a choice NONcompetitive just to make it match an outdated entry in an outdated dex is ... well, silly.

MVBrandt wrote:Have to wait and see, but practicality and rules balance should take precedence here. Harlies are not really quite right anymore due to the age of their codex; not amending them for the current balance of the game would be absurd.

Those with a fluff-based attachment to the rules being indentical, try this: use your imagination. Isn't that the whole point of attaching to fluff and such anyway? If the Harlies are in there EXACTLY as they are now in the Eldar dex, they'll be EXACTLY as subpar a choice as in the Eldar dex, and as a result have no real purpose for being in the dex BEYOND fluff ... and that seems silly.

Cross your fingers, in fact, that they ARE better and thus different; the more competitively selectable every option in the dex is, the more it will naturally de-emphasize the BS division that exists between perceived "fluffbunnies" and perceived "WAACers." It won't happen, probably, but if every possible bulid in a dex was more or less competitive, we'd all be in a happier place. Keeping a choice NONcompetitive just to make it match an outdated entry in an outdated dex is ... well, silly.

+1

The only concern about the Harlequins should be if when the Eldar codex is redone, if they would (hopefully) remain unchanged again.

It feels like they are a unit thrown in there for the sake of the community as opposed to something either codex is being balanced around.

Personally, I'd prefer it stay that was instead of them invalidating units like Banshees, Wyches, Scorpions, etc.

Have fun with them, or play 'counts as' if you're having issues with them. But I would rather seem them removed at this rate.

wuestenfux wrote:But Harlies are Harlies and behave in the same way independent of the codex.

In the same manner that Terminators behave the same way in the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Space Marine codexes?

MVBrandt wrote:Have to wait and see, but practicality and rules balance should take precedence here. Harlies are not really quite right anymore due to the age of their codex; not amending them for the current balance of the game would be absurd.

Those with a fluff-based attachment to the rules being indentical, try this: use your imagination. Isn't that the whole point of attaching to fluff and such anyway? If the Harlies are in there EXACTLY as they are now in the Eldar dex, they'll be EXACTLY as subpar a choice as in the Eldar dex, and as a result have no real purpose for being in the dex BEYOND fluff ... and that seems silly.

Cross your fingers, in fact, that they ARE better and thus different; the more competitively selectable every option in the dex is, the more it will naturally de-emphasize the BS division that exists between perceived "fluffbunnies" and perceived "WAACers." It won't happen, probably, but if every possible bulid in a dex was more or less competitive, we'd all be in a happier place. Keeping a choice NONcompetitive just to make it match an outdated entry in an outdated dex is ... well, silly.

Your post has so much common sense and logic that it all but guarantees the Harlequins will be point for point, stat for stat, option for option identical to the Eldar codex.

Skarboy wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:Have to wait and see, but practicality and rules balance should take precedence here. Harlies are not really quite right anymore due to the age of their codex; not amending them for the current balance of the game would be absurd.

Those with a fluff-based attachment to the rules being indentical, try this: use your imagination. Isn't that the whole point of attaching to fluff and such anyway? If the Harlies are in there EXACTLY as they are now in the Eldar dex, they'll be EXACTLY as subpar a choice as in the Eldar dex, and as a result have no real purpose for being in the dex BEYOND fluff ... and that seems silly.

Cross your fingers, in fact, that they ARE better and thus different; the more competitively selectable every option in the dex is, the more it will naturally de-emphasize the BS division that exists between perceived "fluffbunnies" and perceived "WAACers." It won't happen, probably, but if every possible bulid in a dex was more or less competitive, we'd all be in a happier place. Keeping a choice NONcompetitive just to make it match an outdated entry in an outdated dex is ... well, silly.

Your post has so much common sense and logic that it all but guarantees the Harlequins will be point for point, stat for stat, option for option identical to the Eldar codex.

yup they are since at gamesday uk they said they copy and pasted from the eldar codex

Lordkillyou wrote:yup they are since at gamesday uk they said they copy and pasted from the eldar codex

I don't believe the preview had points costs attached or that it was discussed, so that could be a way that the statlines, options, etc. are there, but they drop the cost to something more in line with the rest of the game. Harlequins aren't very good as presented in the Craftworld Eldar book, but they might be tempting at 4 pts less per model (basically the cost of getting Kisses on everyone).

Skarboy wrote:

Lordkillyou wrote:yup they are since at gamesday uk they said they copy and pasted from the eldar codex

I don't believe the preview had points costs attached or that it was discussed, so that could be a way that the statlines, options, etc. are there, but they drop the cost to something more in line with the rest of the game. Harlequins aren't very good as presented in the Craftworld Eldar book, but they might be tempting at 4 pts less per model (basically the cost of getting Kisses on everyone).

belive in what you beleive not my fault if i am right and your wrong

Lordkillyou wrote:belive in what you beleive not my fault if i am right and your wrong

It's not about what people believe, the points costs have not been verified yet. The preview codex at GD UK did not have points included. Eldar codex entries are, by and large, over-costed, so it would not surprise me to see a small points cost adjustment accompany identical rules. We'll see. I'd see little point in getting Harlequins for the points and options they have in the current Eldar codex, especially with the competition in the Elite slots from Incubi, Mandrakes, elite Wyches, elite Warriors, etc. except solely for fluff reasons.

Skarboy wrote:

Lordkillyou wrote:belive in what you beleive not my fault if i am right and your wrong

It's not about what people believe, the points costs have not been verified yet. The preview codex at GD UK did not have points included. Eldar codex entries are, by and large, over-costed, so it would not surprise me to see a small points cost adjustment accompany identical rules. We'll see. I'd see little point in getting Harlequins for the points and options they have in the current Eldar codex, especially with the competition in the Elite slots from Incubi, Mandrakes, elite Wyches, elite Warriors, etc. except solely for fluff reasons.

well they been telling people there just cut and paste it from the eldar codex so ur right about it not being there but there told people they cut and paste it from the eldar codex

Lordkillyou wrote: well they been telling people there just cut and paste it from the eldar codex so ur right about it not being there but there told people they cut and paste it from the eldar codex

I know what they've said, but GW certainly has misled us all before, as well as left out critical bits (such as points costs) in their previews. Doesn't really matter, but I'm curious as to what the Harlequins will be like in the codex and if they'll even have a point/role compared to all the other new and improved DE units.

They will likely be exactly the same as in the Eldar codex, then get updated with a PDF/Errata if GW feels the need.

I think thats probably the best way of doing it.

Would it not be just as easy to print the new stats in a brand new book and issue the PDF for the Eldar?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Would it not be just as easy to print the new stats in a brand new book and issue the PDF for the Eldar?

GW think that this is 1987 and no-one has the internet. This is why they release Errata once for each army and update it every 10 years thereafter.

MVBrandt wrote:
It won't happen, probably, but if every possible bulid in a dex was more or less competitive, we'd all be in a happier place. Keeping a choice NONcompetitive just to make it match an outdated entry in an outdated dex is ... well, silly.

Asking for every single build in a codex to be competitive is just as silly, though. Can you really ask that every combination is competitive as the next? While I am a firm believer in the general makes the list, not the other way around and that no codex entry is a complete waste, to say that you want every build to stand on equal ground is impossible.

Some units are good, some units are great. The good ones get sifted down through the sieve that is listbuilding/playtesting and some are left on the bottom. I don't agree with Skarboy above that Harlequins are one of those units (I have used them with great success), but I know what you're getting at. Not every unit can be TH/SS terminators. That's what makes codices like Eldar one of the most challenging and, I'd argue, most rewarding. You can make most builds work. Will one be as competitive as another? Maybe not. Not until you've honed it to the point that it could be.

But trying to balance every single unit in every single dex is what leads to Codex creep. Look at the same mechanic in MMORPGs. Game developers create classes and are harped upon to make each and every class balanced. When they realize one class is more powerful than another, they nerf the powerful class and buff the weaker ones, trying to get them on equal ground. Then, another build becomes the most powerful and they nerf that build and buff others. This goes on and on and on.

But, in a game like 40K, where rulebooks can't be "nerfed" necessarily, the only outcome is Codex creep. To keep the next codex competitive (and therefore, selling models), you must make it as powerful if not a hint moreso than its predecessors. Its the same example above, without the "nerfing" mechanic. It keeps going and going and going until you hit a new Edition where the rules change to upheave all of the codices.

I, for one, am happy that they are equal to Eldar quins (if, in fact, they are). Believe it or not, some -do- play for fluff and may take them even though the powergamers and netlisters tell them that they are poor choices. I think it is a nod, not to the fluffy players, but to the gaming community - knowing that the Eldar fanbase might be in some sort of uproar for the next 2-3 years while they wait on a new codex. I think that it is one of the few times that I've seen GW take other parts of the fanbase into account when releasing a new product.

Of course, this could all be blown out of the water if the harlequins are not, in fact, copied from the Eldar dex.

Pretty much agree with that Puma, not everything has to be competitive.

You wanted Harlequins in your DE Codex, so what if they aren't the best (although they are still good), you've got the extra customisation.
It's for this level of customisation that I believe Fan-dexes should be over-powered.

Even so, Harlequins aren't a bad unit, although without trying to stir this any further, they may suffer without Fortune.

I can personally think of a few uses a Harlequin unit could achieve that won't overlap with existing De units, and even just for the solidarity and background reasons : I love the fact they are included.

I'm not disappointed they didn't get a 5th edition buff. I think they are a fine unit, they just have a higher skill ceiling now than before in 4th edition when they would just click on a unit and it would disappear, then consolidate into the next neighboring unit.

Doesn't Lilith dodge bullets now?

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:Doesn't Lilith dodge bullets now?

When she's ready, she won't need to.

Are Harlequins allowed to jump into transports (even if their not allowed dedicated...) or do they have a rule not allowing that? (i know in general you can have another unit in a non-dedicated transport....)

I think that it is one of the few times that I've seen GW take other parts of the fanbase into account when releasing a new product.

Except GW have been catering to fluffy gamers for years.