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No, you can't reroll a reroll. Just like in 5th.

Grey Templar wrote:No, you can't reroll a reroll. Just like in 5th.

That's cool, makes Coteaz a bit cheaper since I can un-mastercraft the 4 psycannons. Obviously only something I would take when I'm not fighting Eldar.

If you're not using Coteaz it's probably always worth taking mastercrafted psycannons imho. For each psycannon you're rolling To Hit 4 times. With a BS of 4 you will miss at least once per psycannon. So in a unit with 4 psycannons you will get 4 mastercrafted rerolls To Hit. 4 rerolls == 4 rolls == the same as another psycannon. 4 mastercrafts = 20 pts; the same as a psycannon. Effectively therefore, by paying for a unit's 4 psycannons to be mastercrafted you are buying that unit a 5th psycannon.

Sethorly wrote:If you're not using Coteaz it's probably always worth taking mastercrafted psycannons imho. For each psycannon you're rolling To Hit 4 times. With a BS of 4 you will miss at least once per psycannon. So in a unit with 4 psycannons you will get 4 mastercrafted rerolls To Hit. 4 rerolls == 4 rolls == the same as another psycannon. 4 mastercrafts = 20 pts; the same as a psycannon. Effectively therefore, by paying for a unit's 4 psycannons to be mastercrafted you are buying that unit a 5th psycannon.

Yes, I always take MC Psycannons One game I dropped them to save a few points, big mistake.

Sethorly wrote:Thanks for that list sudojo. One of the people who reintroduced me to 40k taught me that there were really no "better" armour or unit-types in the game, just different categories, and you need to bring the tools in a TAC list to handle all of them. eg. terminator -> plasma; AV13-14 -> vindicare; hordes -> templates.

You are most welcome =)

I'm trying to bounce this list off various peoples and getting it hashed out a bit better before I put it on the front page.

Anyone finding anything wrong so far with the first page? I know it's kind of a wall'o'text atm, I'll try to fix it up a bit more later but mostly been busy hunting ideas lately. (also really slowed down now that I'm watching the Olympics lol)

Also, (off topic) but anyone notice how 2012 appears to be year of air power? Even batman is getting in on it! (just watched it last night)

I'm wondering if the Vindicare won't become more prominent because of his ability to pick out enemy psykers.

DarthDiggler wrote:I'm wondering if the Vindicare won't become more prominent because of his ability to pick out enemy psykers.

The ability is mitigated somewhat by the Look Out Sir rule, and don't forget Paladins can allocate hits from shooting as well, being characters.

sudojoe wrote:

Sethorly wrote:Thanks for that list sudojo. One of the people who reintroduced me to 40k taught me that there were really no "better" armour or unit-types in the game, just different categories, and you need to bring the tools in a TAC list to handle all of them. eg. terminator -> plasma; AV13-14 -> vindicare; hordes -> templates.

You are most welcome =)

I'm trying to bounce this list off various peoples and getting it hashed out a bit better before I put it on the front page.

Anyone finding anything wrong so far with the first page? I know it's kind of a wall'o'text atm, I'll try to fix it up a bit more later but mostly been busy hunting ideas lately. (also really slowed down now that I'm watching the Olympics lol)

Also, (off topic) but anyone notice how 2012 appears to be year of air power? Even batman is getting in on it! (just watched it last night)

Henchmen fill the TAC role really well. A Psyker-based squad gives you Strength 10 AP 1 Large Blast template. Two of those with extended range from Jokaero in my game yesterday raped a footslogging Deathwing army. Plasma servitors do a pretty good job of that too, and Jokaero are effective at anti-tank at long and mid ranges, while giving some support close-in with flamers. Acolytes with bolters are 5 points each for +1 wound for your squad, and with a Jokaero have the chance to become 36" Rending bolters. I've glanced a Devilfish to death before with that. Stick these squads in Bolstered Ruins by a techmarine and you have 3++ cover for errr'one!

hrm... don't know if you can use the extended range on psy powers... still potent at 36' but I'm pretty sure you can't boost their range. I'm also really enjoying my henchmens too

Trying to find a balance between them vs purifiers vs strike squads. not sure of the ideal distribution.

I really have enjoyed having some counter attack options with some puririfers combat squadded with some 4 psycannons in a different squad or just a pure CC purifier squad and really enjoyed the warp quake and 3+ armor. arrrg so hard to decide.

DarthDiggler wrote:I'm wondering if the Vindicare won't become more prominent because of his ability to pick out enemy psykers.

I'll be taking him all the time as the ultimate counter to take out the new buildings, as well as the usual normal AV14.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Enigwolf wrote:A Psyker-based squad gives you Strength 10 AP 1 Large Blast template. Two of those with extended range from Jokaero in my game yesterday raped a footslogging Deathwing army.

Yes yes yes! As someone who has always used Psyker henchmen I am so pleased to see more and more people use them. They are very good for their points. I have written a post earlier in the thread on their use (imho).

Just ran the math for Force weapon activation vs hammer hand vs different toughnesses and FNP. Quite useful now instead of hammer hand.
See first page terminator troop section for math

Bottom line, T5 FnP - it's a wash, use either

T4 and T3 with FnP - force activation actually seems to kill more than hammer hand

Hammer hand seems to be ideal if you can get rad grenade or someone else to cast it so you can still activate force weapons or if target does not have FnP.

Also threw some math up for paladins and FnP. not sure if I did it right for FnP vs small arms that's not plasma. If someone can check it, be much appreciated.

Well, I was in the toilet re-reading the codex, when I read the Reinforced Aegis that all dreadnoughts have.

Up to 12", the aegis of an objective of a magic power, gives -4 to the leadership test of the caster, not just -1.

A dreadnought is a must, just to give this.

DakotaBlue wrote:Well, I was in the toilet re-reading the codex, when I read the Reinforced Aegis that all dreadnoughts have.

Up to 12", the aegis of an objective of a magic power, gives -4 to the leadership test of the caster, not just -1.

A dreadnought is a must, just to give this.

Part of why summoning a CC dread to the front with the libby was so fun, made nearby enemy psyker powers nearly impossible.

doc1234 wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:Well, I was in the toilet re-reading the codex, when I read the Reinforced Aegis that all dreadnoughts have.

Up to 12", the aegis of an objective of a magic power, gives -4 to the leadership test of the caster, not just -1.

A dreadnought is a must, just to give this.

Part of why summoning a CC dread to the front with the libby was so fun, made nearby enemy psyker powers nearly impossible.

Hmm, a nought with TL Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and fist... with pyropsi ammo... seems good.

DakotaBlue wrote:

doc1234 wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:Well, I was in the toilet re-reading the codex, when I read the Reinforced Aegis that all dreadnoughts have.

Up to 12", the aegis of an objective of a magic power, gives -4 to the leadership test of the caster, not just -1.

A dreadnought is a must, just to give this.

Part of why summoning a CC dread to the front with the libby was so fun, made nearby enemy psyker powers nearly impossible.

Hmm, a nought with TL Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and fist... with pyropsi ammo... seems good.

yeah... but you better stick the dread behind the libby unit bc w/ dreads having only 2 HP, they wreck easy, .....and now more than ever, you always have to stick psyriflemen in cover for the cover save....

hawkology wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:

doc1234 wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:Well, I was in the toilet re-reading the codex, when I read the Reinforced Aegis that all dreadnoughts have.

Up to 12", the aegis of an objective of a magic power, gives -4 to the leadership test of the caster, not just -1.

A dreadnought is a must, just to give this.

Part of why summoning a CC dread to the front with the libby was so fun, made nearby enemy psyker powers nearly impossible.

Hmm, a nought with TL Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and fist... with pyropsi ammo... seems good.

yeah... but you better stick the dread behind the libby unit bc w/ dreads having only 2 HP, they wreck easy, .....and now more than ever, you always have to stick psyriflemen in cover for the cover save....

Dreadnoughts have 3 Hull Points.

Only things like Speeders and Venoms have 2 HPs.

The deployment rules for Stormraven, though not FAQ'd, we are using it at our local gaming stores.

If the stormraven have a beacon, you will deploy this dreadnought wherever you want, but in turn 3.

I mean, you deploy the raven in turn 2 (with luck and the +1 from the grandmaster), you have it in the face of an enemy unit controlling a point, shoot all your stuff. Next turn, you move the raven and deploy the dread in the face of the unit you shooted with the raven. Then, you make rain fire over them with the 2 heavy flames. It can easily kill an entire unit in cover of longfangs taking a point for example, with this 2 rounds of shooting.

I'm gonna use it in my next game.

I'd say that flame naught is a pretty fun idea. It'd be kind of useful to get that guy close to down eldar farseers usually hiding behind all sorts of cover.

On that topic, since switching to a more psychic power build, I've had more success vs necrons, orks, and even tau lately but now I am finding nids to be kind of a pain as well as SW and really struggling against eldar with some good allies.

Nids and SW I can usually handle but hide the farseerer way in the corner is really making me want to find some room for either an interceptor unit, or even an assasin like culuxus but probably be more like the callidus.

Anyone have anything else they found works well vs those hidden farseers?

The dual flamedread will be a nice middle finger at the increasing number of aegis defencelines too

doc1234 wrote:The dual flamedread will be a nice middle finger at the increasing number of aegis defencelines too

Technically you know that the dread can actually take over the quad gun if he manages to kill all of the other enemy there.

The gun emplacement says just model in base contact. Does not limit you to infantry or vehicles or anything. Technically even a tank can do it. It's a wierd quark of the rules.

Even if your enemy bought it, it counts as neutral battlefield terrain, anyone can use it.


*mental image of flaming things off the gun and then dread tries to shoot it with his big DCCW lolol*

Well in my game the other day my 10 man Draigostar tanked about an entire army's worth of Tyranid fire and lost 1 guy, had wounds on 2 others, and Draigo had 2 left.

Their shooting literally melted everything they looked at, and that wasn't even with Coteaz; since I was fighting an Eldar.

Stormraven dramatically underperformed, not really a fan of moving 18" minimum, have a very hard time bringing guns to bear on what I want; think I would have rather brought a Landraider or a couple DKs, especially against those Nid hordes.

We ended up losing 'Relic' on turn 5 (me and my Tau friend), because the game ended, if we had of kept playing I am confident we would have run down the rangers that had been fleeing with the Relic for the entire game since they infiltrated next to it and picked it up on turn 1.

Dreadnoughts blow up really easily now at least they are as deadly as ever from range.

Kaldor wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:I'm wondering if the Vindicare won't become more prominent because of his ability to pick out enemy psykers.

The ability is mitigated somewhat by the Look Out Sir rule, and don't forget Paladins can allocate hits from shooting as well, being characters.

Can you still shatter the targeted Pyskers/Model wargear with Shieldbreaker rounds before they can LOS! the wound? The rules basically say destroy the wargear then make any saves, if any still apply. It would be an odd iteraction. "Oh, poop. This bullet destroyed my armor, but wait i'll still have the cannon fodder boyz model take the hit. It's important to know what order these events take place.

If you do LoS before placing the wound, it goes to the miniature that did the LoS. If you do it after, the ++ goes off of the miniature who ate the wound.

DakotaBlue wrote:If you do LoS before placing the wound, it goes to the miniature that did the LoS. If you do it after, the ++ goes off of the miniature who ate the wound.

I don't know if I'm following you correctly. The wound can't be LOS! until its assigned. If a wound is assigned to a model, they lose a piece of wargear.

So, if I shieldbreaker ammo on a farseer for instance, I hit and wound. The wound is allocated and they lose a piece of wargear and then they can LOS! the wound away.

or

Shieldbreaker ammo on a farseer, I hit and wound. The wound is allocated and they LOS!, the wound goes on someone else and they lose a piece of wargear.

?? I don't have the codex with me atm, but the wording of the ammo vs. LOS! rules need to be checked.

LOS reallocates a wound, meaning it had to have been allocated in the first place, so regardless of when he uses LOS, that initial model loses his wargear.

That being said, I don't see this as reason enough to take a Vindicare anymore, as his two main roles, big vehicles and characters, have been changed to a point where he is no good at it anymore.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:LOS reallocates a wound, meaning it had to have been allocated in the first place, so regardless of when he uses LOS, that initial model loses his wargear.

That being said, I don't see this as reason enough to take a Vindicare anymore, as his two main roles, big vehicles and characters, have been changed to a point where he is no good at it anymore.

What?

He's still the go-to guy when s*** needs to die, now! Not to mention he can still pick out special and heavy weapons.

The only thing that happened is some vehicles are easier to kill. But you can't one shot vehicles as easy now, something he still does amazingly.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:LOS reallocates a wound, meaning it had to have been allocated in the first place, so regardless of when he uses LOS, that initial model loses his wargear.

That being said, I don't see this as reason enough to take a Vindicare anymore, as his two main roles, big vehicles and characters, have been changed to a point where he is no good at it anymore.

It's not just wargear destruction actully as it only destroys invul saves. I'd love to destroy the ghost helm for one if it'd worked. He may be less good at say sniping blood angel priests or librarians, he is still good at anti-armor. Also if he used a krackstorm, he can allocate as well and force alot of people to Look out sirs (if it hits)

Frankly the biggest problems I'm having and still having - is necrons and their fliersand the eldar farseer messing up my lovely psychic powers. Also really need to work a counter attack option into the list. Currently using alot of shooty henchmen and a squad of ss as the cornersotne along with the traditional AC dreads and a storm raven fast attack just as a gunship and having a good time with it.

Really need some form of counter attack when the mass of gaunts/gargoyles/wraiths/ or some nice flying monster creature hit me. I'm thinking of either a squad of 5 paladins, vs maybe 10 purifiers? Or maybe go DCA? Some of those flygants with iron arm is damn sturdy Trying to shoot down zoans is also a pain (especially with psyker shooting lol - damn shadow in the warp)

what do you guys think of good counters to them? Especially at hunting runes of warding farseerers?

Also gonna start to rewrite the purifiers and paladins sections on the front page. Gonna try to add in some stuff about common loadouts as people tend to ask about it. If you guys have ideas, please post them and I'll add it to the growing body on the fist page.

What are peoples' thoughts on Purifier loadouts? What heavy weapons are we liking? I'm thinking of either all Incinerators for a highly foot slogging squad (and they are free!) or 2 Incinerators and 2 Psycannons (for some long range shooting while they leg it up to mid field).

What CC weapons do folks like? Personally I think a stave is necessary in order to tank big scary characters; maybe a hammer or 2 as well.

Thoughts?

OIF Knight wrote:What are peoples' thoughts on Purifier loadouts? What heavy weapons are we liking? I'm thinking of either all Incinerators for a highly foot slogging squad (and they are free!) or 2 Incinerators and 2 Psycannons (for some long range shooting while they leg it up to mid field).

What CC weapons do folks like? Personally I think a stave is necessary in order to tank big scary characters; maybe a hammer or 2 as well.

Thoughts?

Pretty sure this has been explained and gone over, unless your going for a full assault squad, youl want at least 1-2 psycannons for every 5 guys, at 10 you can get away with just 2. Hammers at 1 for every 5 guys, halberds all round, and a staved justicar for challanges

Pretty sure this has been explained and gone over, unless your going for a full assault squad, youl want at least 1-2 psycannons for every 5 guys, at 10 you can get away with just 2. Hammers at 1 for every 5 guys, halberds all round, and a staved justicar for challanges

Thanks for the advice, appreciate it!