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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Yep totaly agree and when they found guys during 70's ( hiding ,not willing to surrender) , wow

Eh, My grandfather managed to take a Japanese prisoner early on when they shot down his float plane.

Then again, he was also quite willing to tell the story about Okinawa and how the Japanese army made sure that those that wanted to surrender, didn't, slaughtering the civilians and telling them the Americans were going to come and rape and murder them all, so it was better to die now. They likely might have fought to the last, all right. And been damn sure they were the last before hand.

I bet you had a lot of good bedtime stories...

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Yep totaly agree and when they found guys during 70's ( hiding ,not willing to surrender) , wow

Eh, My grandfather managed to take a Japanese prisoner early on when they shot down his float plane.

Then again, he was also quite willing to tell the story about Okinawa and how the Japanese army made sure that those that wanted to surrender, didn't, slaughtering the civilians and telling them the Americans were going to come and rape and murder them all, so it was better to die now. They likely might have fought to the last, all right. And been damn sure they were the last before hand.

My paternal grandmother was a child in Tokyo during the fire-bombing...yes, the Imperial Army was spreading propaganda (or maybe not, who knows what might have happened in the chaos of an invasion), but the Japanese civilians were in no mood for forgiveness at the time - the only reason they cooperated after the surrender was because His Majesty also cooperated (which was also the reason they surrendered). Well, that's past now, so while their generation won't forgive the Americans for what they did (imagine the city you grew up burning, and looking up to see planes with stars and stripes on their wings - she still has slight PTSD when she hears an air raid siren from movies and documentaries), but they won't act on that grudge.

Warp whales perhaps

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Yep totaly agree and when they found guys during 70's ( hiding ,not willing to surrender) , wow

Eh, My grandfather managed to take a Japanese prisoner early on when they shot down his float plane.

Then again, he was also quite willing to tell the story about Okinawa and how the Japanese army made sure that those that wanted to surrender, didn't, slaughtering the civilians and telling them the Americans were going to come and rape and murder them all, so it was better to die now. They likely might have fought to the last, all right. And been damn sure they were the last before hand.

My paternal grandmother was a child in Tokyo during the fire-bombing...yes, the Imperial Army was spreading propaganda (or maybe not, who knows what might have happened in the chaos of an invasion), but the Japanese civilians were in no mood for forgiveness at the time - the only reason they cooperated after the surrender was because His Majesty also cooperated (which was also the reason they surrendered). Well, that's past now, so while their generation won't forgive the Americans for what they did (imagine the city you grew up burning, and looking up to see planes with stars and stripes on their wings - she still has slight PTSD when she hears an air raid siren from movies and documentaries), but they won't act on that grudge.

I can tell you from my personal exp -there's nothing worse then waiting in basment untill siren goes again to signal an end of airstrike so you can go play again, meanwhile beging that bomb won't strike directly in your house (one fell near my garden - it was hole big as olimpic swiming pool ),trust me that stays for life...sorry for grandmother - but I belive Japan had big balls and moral principles until the end.....

Technically speaking, I believe that the Eldar gods are, er... were warp beings much like the four gods of Chaos, and they could be argued to be "good". But moving beyond that, it is theoretically possible for positive emotions to manifest themselves in the warp. However, given that the 40k universe is so dark, the positive emotions are greatly outweighed by the negative ones. It is even implied that the Chaos Gods are just "mostly" evil opposed to completely evil because of the small amount of positive emotion that feeds them (Nurgle and Tzeentch being the most so, with Nurgle caring about the well-being of his worshipers for reasons beyond the fact that they empower him, and the fact that Tzeentch may well decide to manipulate things to change for the better).

 Tadashi wrote:

My paternal grandmother was a child in Tokyo during the fire-bombing...yes, the Imperial Army was spreading propaganda (or maybe not, who knows what might have happened in the chaos of an invasion), but the Japanese civilians were in no mood for forgiveness at the time - the only reason they cooperated after the surrender was because His Majesty also cooperated (which was also the reason they surrendered). Well, that's past now, so while their generation won't forgive the Americans for what they did (imagine the city you grew up burning, and looking up to see planes with stars and stripes on their wings - she still has slight PTSD when she hears an air raid siren from movies and documentaries), but they won't act on that grudge.

All good for the people of Edo to say that (after all, the US did burn something like 16 square km of their city down), but I suspect areas outside the capitol might have had a different opinion. The people of Okinawa, for example, have never quite forgiven the Japanese army for both manipulating and/or outright forcing people into mass suicides. 110,000 people protested when MEXT tried to practice a little 'revisionist history' by removing all mention of the suicide orders from textbooks. You think they also don't have personal memories of what happened?

BTW: While I have not seen a bombing campaign (by the US) I have seen the dark side of an on-going US occupation outside the middle east quite well, thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:

I bet you had a lot of good bedtime stories...

Not so much. Grandpa wisely waited for me to grow up before telling me the really rough ones.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


All good for the people of Edo to say that (after all, the US did burn something like 16 square km of their city down), but I suspect areas outside the capitol might have had a different opinion. The people of Okinawa, for example, have never quite forgiven the Japanese army for both manipulating and/or outright forcing people into mass suicides. 110,000 people protested when MEXT tried to practice a little 'revisionist history' by removing all mention of the suicide orders from textbooks. You think they also don't have personal memories of what happened?

I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


All good for the people of Edo to say that (after all, the US did burn something like 16 square km of their city down), but I suspect areas outside the capitol might have had a different opinion. The people of Okinawa, for example, have never quite forgiven the Japanese army for both manipulating and/or outright forcing people into mass suicides. 110,000 people protested when MEXT tried to practice a little 'revisionist history' by removing all mention of the suicide orders from textbooks. You think they also don't have personal memories of what happened?

I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...

And post war bombing of Germany???

I know for a fact that Allies were no saints - post war killings ( just for retaliation ) is in every psihology text book

 Tadashi wrote:

I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...

No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.

AS far as burning cities... yeah, Dresden comes to mind immediately. A man once told me how they hunkered down in shelters, and burning fluid came pouring in under the shelter door and how they desperately tried to smother it. They did it. Other shelters weren't as lucky. My own family predominantly Irish and Native American. We know something about being on the receiving end of genocide. (And in fighting guerrilla wars against occupying forces practicing said genocide).


I should point out, however, that Japan did have some rather staggering war crimes of it's own. Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...

No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.

AS far as burning cities... yeah, Dresden comes to mind immediately. A man once told me how they hunkered down in shelters, and burning fluid came pouring in under the shelter door and how they desperately tried to smother it. They did it. Other shelters weren't as lucky. My own family predominantly Irish and Native American. We know something about being on the receiving end of genocide. (And in fighting guerrilla wars against occupying forces practicing said genocide).


I should point out, however, that Japan did have some rather staggering war crimes of it's own. Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.

Yep, I've read that what they did to Chinese was Josef Mengele x 10......

 DarthMarko wrote:

Yep, I've read that what they did to Chinese was Josef Mengele x 10......

Sadly, while Mengele was hunted for the rest of his life, Ishii set up a private practice in Japan and eventually died of throat cancer. tanj

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Yep, I've read that what they did to Chinese was Josef Mengele x 10......

Sadly, while Mengele was hunted for the rest of his life, Ishii set up a private practice in Japan and eventually died of throat cancer. tanj

And Mengele did drowned IIRC....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


All good for the people of Edo to say that (after all, the US did burn something like 16 square km of their city down), but I suspect areas outside the capitol might have had a different opinion. The people of Okinawa, for example, have never quite forgiven the Japanese army for both manipulating and/or outright forcing people into mass suicides. 110,000 people protested when MEXT tried to practice a little 'revisionist history' by removing all mention of the suicide orders from textbooks. You think they also don't have personal memories of what happened?

I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...

And post war bombing of Germany???

Spoiler:

The Bombing of Dresden was a strategic military attack on the city of Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony, that took place in the final months of the Second World War. In four raids between 13 February and 15 February 1945, 1,300 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and the United States Army Air Force (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city. The resulting firestorm destroyed 15 square miles (39 square kilometres) of the city centre and caused thousands of civilian casualties.

That's not post-war...

It's feasible, but I don't think any of the "good feelings" conglomerations have attained sentience. However, the original Chaos books hinted that a huge variety of Chaotic entity was possible, so there certainly could be some benign ones.

I still wouldn't trust them, though.

 purplefood wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


All good for the people of Edo to say that (after all, the US did burn something like 16 square km of their city down), but I suspect areas outside the capitol might have had a different opinion. The people of Okinawa, for example, have never quite forgiven the Japanese army for both manipulating and/or outright forcing people into mass suicides. 110,000 people protested when MEXT tried to practice a little 'revisionist history' by removing all mention of the suicide orders from textbooks. You think they also don't have personal memories of what happened?

I'm not saying we didn't do anything wrong...its just that I don't accept the generally accepted idea that the Allies were saints. Its not just Tokyo that was fire-bombed, virtually every industrial center was reduced to ashes. Not to mention the nuclear attack...

And post war bombing of Germany???

Spoiler:

The Bombing of Dresden was a strategic military attack on the city of Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony, that took place in the final months of the Second World War. In four raids between 13 February and 15 February 1945, 1,300 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and the United States Army Air Force (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city. The resulting firestorm destroyed 15 square miles (39 square kilometres) of the city centre and caused thousands of civilian casualties.

That's not post-war...

Ok it was in the final months of WW2 timeline but objective was pure retaliation and didn't had any meaning...

 BaronIveagh wrote:


No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.

Must I say it again? It wasn't just the capital that was fire-bombed...every city with industrial capacity (except Kyoto - the Allies were not stupid enough to bomb the ancient capital) was fire-bombed. And many people fled to the provinces from the cities...and in the event of the invasion, the provincials would be more likely to support Imperial guerillas ala Vietnam rather than foreign invaders.

Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.

Your government wanted the bio-weapons data...as a scientist, I am appalled at the use science was put to, but even I have to agree that science requires sacrifices - with risk comes progress, and nothing of great value cannot be achieved without equal cost.

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.

Must I say it again? It wasn't just the capital that was fire-bombed...every city with industrial capacity (except Kyoto - the Allies were not stupid enough to bomb the ancient capital) was fire-bombed. And many people fled to the provinces from the cities...and in the event of the invasion, the provincials would be more likely to support Imperial guerillas ala Vietnam rather than foreign invaders.

Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.

Your government wanted the bio-weapons data...as a scientist, I am appalled at the use science was put to, but even I have to agree that science requires sacrifices - with risk comes progress, and nothing of great value cannot be achieved without equal cost.

You are scientist ?Which department my I ask?

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.

Must I say it again? It wasn't just the capital that was fire-bombed...every city with industrial capacity (except Kyoto - the Allies were not stupid enough to bomb the ancient capital) was fire-bombed. And many people fled to the provinces from the cities...and in the event of the invasion, the provincials would be more likely to support Imperial guerillas ala Vietnam rather than foreign invaders.

Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.

Your government wanted the bio-weapons data...as a scientist, I am appalled at the use science was put to, but even I have to agree that science requires sacrifices - with risk comes progress, and nothing of great value cannot be achieved without equal cost.

You are scientist ?Which department my I ask?

Third year material science student, to be exact.

 Tadashi wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


No one said they were. My point was that gak like that would likely have continued to go on. You paint it like they all would have willingly gone to their deaths, but the reality of the situation was a bit different outside the capitol.

Must I say it again? It wasn't just the capital that was fire-bombed...every city with industrial capacity (except Kyoto - the Allies were not stupid enough to bomb the ancient capital) was fire-bombed. And many people fled to the provinces from the cities...and in the event of the invasion, the provincials would be more likely to support Imperial guerillas ala Vietnam rather than foreign invaders.

Themis weeps that Shirō Ishii was given immunity rather then given ebola.

Your government wanted the bio-weapons data...as a scientist, I am appalled at the use science was put to, but even I have to agree that science requires sacrifices - with risk comes progress, and nothing of great value cannot be achieved without equal cost.

You are scientist ?Which department my I ask?

Third year material science student, to be exact.

Ha,I knew there is some factor behind your strong affection in the IT :-)

IT?

 Tadashi wrote:
IT?

imperial truth,I mean as a scientist you probably see things different (or should I say, normal )

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
IT?

imperial truth,I mean as a scientist you probably see things different (or should I say, normal )

Reason, enlightenment, technological certainty...the three pillars of the new world.

 Tadashi wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
IT?

imperial truth,I mean as a scientist you probably see things different (or should I say, normal )

Reason, enlightenment, technological certainty...the three pillars of the new world.

I will finish computer engineering college next month so I uphold the same logic - cheers

 Tadashi wrote:

Must I say it again? It wasn't just the capital that was fire-bombed...every city with industrial capacity (except Kyoto - the Allies were not stupid enough to bomb the ancient capital) was fire-bombed. And many people fled to the provinces from the cities...and in the event of the invasion, the provincials would be more likely to support Imperial guerillas ala Vietnam rather than foreign invaders.

Yes, the cities were bombed, in much the way every city in Germany was bombed (Actually the Germans were bombed far longer and more extensively), and my, Werwolf got so much support that they... did almost nothing despite a year of planning by the Nazi's before the end.

 Tadashi wrote:

Your government wanted the bio-weapons data...as a scientist, I am appalled at the use science was put to, but even I have to agree that science requires sacrifices - with risk comes progress, and nothing of great value cannot be achieved without equal cost.

Well, one: WHO'S fething government?


Right here.


I might point out that our punishments for war criminals are 'cruel and unusual' (being burned alive over a period of several days, with parts of them being cooked and force fed to them). If you want a punishment that discourages something, hanging and gas chambers don't even come close.

Secondly... yes, and that was exactly the argument that supported the concentration camp at Dachau! Or operations at Peenemünde, a site who's war crimes are quietly brushed under the rug so Wernher von Braun could work at Nasa, despite also helping the slave overseers on site create a device to execute more slaves faster, as an incentive to get them to work harder. Yes, that's good science for you right there. [/sarcasm]

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Secondly... yes, and that was exactly the argument that supported the concentration camp at Dachau! Or operations at Peenemünde, a site who's war crimes are quietly brushed under the rug so Wernher von Braun could work at Nasa, despite also helping the slave overseers on site create a device to execute more slaves faster, as an incentive to get them to work harder. Yes, that's good science for you right there. [/sarcasm]

Yes, thank you for your patronage...seeing as it was the US government who gave amnesty in exchange for the bio-weapons tech (Japan) and rocket tech (Germany). And I seem to recall a few 'abuses' conducted by the US government...

1) Tuskagee Syphilis Study (1932) - 200 black men diagnosed with syphilis are denied treatment and used as Human guinea pigs and all die in the course of the study.

2) 1965 - Prisoners at Holmesburg State Prison in Philadelphia are subjected to Dioxin and later studied for the development of cancer.

3) 1990 - more the 1500 six-month-old black and Hispanic babies in Los Angeles are given an experimental vaccine with the parents never being told of the vaccine's nature.

 Tadashi wrote:

Yes, thank you for your patronage...seeing as it was the US government who gave amnesty in exchange for the bio-weapons tech (Japan) and rocket tech (Germany). And I seem to recall a few 'abuses' conducted by the US government...

1) Tuskagee Syphilis Study (1932) - 200 black men diagnosed with syphilis are denied treatment and used as Human guinea pigs and all die in the course of the study.

2) 1965 - Prisoners at Holmesburg State Prison in Philadelphia are subjected to Dioxin and later studied for the development of cancer.

3) 1990 - more the 1500 six-month-old black and Hispanic babies in Los Angeles are given an experimental vaccine with the parents never being told of the vaccine's nature.

0.5 - Small pox used in premeditated ethnic cleansings of natives in North America under the auspices of General Amherst. The US has been doing this gak since before it was the US.

Yes, and we're not the US (thank God). I'm still waiting for a mod to fix that, as it's IP based, and the VPN is in Buffalo.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Yes, and we're not the US (thank God). I'm still waiting for a mod to fix that, as it's IP based, and the VPN is in Buffalo.

Oh, sorry about that. So...which country are you really?

 Tadashi wrote:

Oh, sorry about that. So...which country are you really?

Seneca Nation of Indians, part of the Iroquois Confederacy. (see above flag, that big purple one)

Sadly, our only recent claim to fame was forcing the US to pay rent for Salamanca, NY. And, don't worry, we've had to put up with this gak ever since they forced duel citizenship on us.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

Oh, sorry about that. So...which country are you really?

Seneca Nation of Indians, part of the Iroquois Confederacy. (see above flag, that big purple one)

Ah, I see. My apologies again...your ancestors and their fellows undoubtedly got the shortest stick out of everyone that came into contact with the USA.

 Tadashi wrote:

Ah, I see. My apologies again...your ancestors and their fellows undoubtedly got the shortest stick out of everyone that came into contact with the USA.

Yeah, I count as a class 2 citizen (Unregistered Native) in my own country for two reasons: my mother was Irish. and 2) The USA forced some really gakky treaties on us that dictate who is and is not allowed to be a citizen of both, and to what degrees we are citizens to each one. (The idea is to get us to give up, join the US, and finish dying the feth off.) On the up side, our treaty is marginally better then most, the US recognizes the Seneca as a sovereign nation that they just happen to be occupying and have been for quite some time, as we're far more dangerous then Al Queda. Who knows when those red savages will come howling out of the forest and burn their cities to the ground, stealing away their women folk with our good looks and the fact that we practice the heathen belief that women are the ones in charge, not the other way around.