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Question: if Living Saints are 'daemons', isn't that kinda grounds for the Daemonhunters/Khornate Knights to be sent in?

Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..

Overlord Zerrtin wrote:Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..

That makes a lot of sense. So basically the IoM is just a chaos god in the material realm...
But the Chaos Gods are like 5 year olds. They are spiteful when they don't get what they want which is the adoration of every single sentient being in the galaxy. Newsflash for them: No-one is Mr. Ultra Popular. Get used to it. Practically every other race in the galaxy isn't getting what it wants, so why should you? Grow up!

Tadashi wrote:Question: if Living Saints are 'daemons', isn't that kinda grounds for the Daemonhunters/Khornate Knights to be sent in?

Living Saints having anything to do with the warp at all - and even more them being daemons - is just one theory of many. It's the one I'm holding to, but I feel this should be pointed out. Much like with most of 40k fluff from GW, there are precious few "hard facts" on this subject.

As to the question - I'm sure the Ordo Malleus would be rather interested in this, but of course they'd have to be suspicious at first. The concept of a "good" daemon is so very alien to the Imperium as a whole, I'd reckon the thought simply would not even come up. Also, the Living Saints appear not as "foreign" creatures, but actual people. Possessing (if you'd follow the same theory as I do) the bodies of actual humans known to be examplars of loyalty and faith. Plus, every "candidate" for the title of Living Saint is put through an intensive conclave of Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition officials whose task it is to determine if the individual put forth is truly a Saint, or whether it is an attempt by the Great Enemy to subvert the Imperial faith. So the Inquisition already is involved ... but since we are talking about an Imperial citizen here, thus making it an internal matter rather than having to do with the enemies from beyond the veil, the Inquisitors involved come from the Ordo Hereticus, not the Ordo Malleus. This could also explain a lack of expertise for identifying a Living Saint's true nature, if you will, for I am certain that Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors would look for different signs and employ different methods than Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus when interviewing a subject.

Overlord Zerrtin wrote:Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..

Whilst the Chaos Gods themselves may resort solely to attacking those who attack them, the same cannot be said of their subjects. In the pursuit of earning their God's favour and living by whatever twisted dogma the various Gods' servants propagate, they slaughter and sacrifice countless innocent lives every day using methods most vile. Even the Imperium's oppression pales to the atrocities committed by Chaos cults and warbands.

Khorne does not care where the blood comes from as long as it flows, Slaanesh does not care if all participants subjected to an orgy actually gain any pleasure of it as long as some do, etc ...

Mynameisalie wrote:

Overlord Zerrtin wrote:Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..

That makes a lot of sense. So basically the IoM is just a chaos god in the material realm...
But the Chaos Gods are like 5 year olds. They are spiteful when they don't get what they want which is the adoration of every single sentient being in the galaxy. Newsflash for them: No-one is Mr. Ultra Popular. Get used to it. Practically every other race in the galaxy isn't getting what it wants, so why should you? Grow up!

Haha so they are exactly like the imperium because if imperial citizens go against the emperor then they are burned and slaughtered for being a heritic so i think of it as
Emperor= chaos god
Imperium= his daemons
And if you go against him the inquisition burns you alive because all humans must live and worship the emporer or die!


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what about what the grey knights have done they kill inocents just to keep themselves more secretitive!

Well we know the Eldar goods are quite real. And since Nurgal is the good of Life and nothing more and nothing less I would say that all of his stuff are good. The issues are that just touching one will kill you. They dont mean anything by it. It just happens. Not our fault there is a whole lot more viral and bacterial life then humans. But as for good in the normal sense. No. Any emotion taken to the extreme is bad. And as for the whole saints and such are deamons Im not sure about that. Not in the normal scene for the setting Im betting since the Empra is likely the primary fuel source for those rather then the straight up warp.


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And the grey knights kill people to keep warp hole from spreading. Anyone who is at a place they show up to and isnt a marine has a fair chance of being possessed and not even knowing about it yet. And given the size of planets fair could mean 1 in a billion and that would still be a problem.

Yep. Exactly. Except the Emperor didn't want people to worship him in the first place. Unfortunately, the cult that revered him as a god have now become the High Lords Of Terra.
Odd how things work out, isn't it?
Chaos Gods are more assertive in the way they operate. They try to bring people over to their side not by brute force, but by whispers and promises of fame, fortune, the ability to escape from death... See how that goes? Khorne less so. If there was a sudden huge influx of positive emotion, the Chaos Gods would feed off that and consequently may become more benign in the ways they get their followers to worship them. This is how I view the Chaos Gods currently:
<Pure Evil>----K-----------------------S----------------------------------------------------------------N--T<Unbiased>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<Pure Good>
No I don't favourite Nurgle and Tzeentch but this is honestly where I'd put them on the morality scale.

Well maybe i shouldnt bring up grey knights considering they follow chaos being led by a daemon lord and such!

Wait, what? Draigo?

YES atleast thats my theory! I mean how amazingly ironic would it be if the they grey knights tasked with hunting daemons were led by a daemon?

Draigo's not a daemon though, is he? I thought he got sucked into the Warp by accident...
And yes that would be hilariously ironic. The God controlling Draigo (assuming he is a Daemon Lord) must be laughing his off.

Mynameisalie wrote:Draigo's not a daemon though, is he? I thought he got sucked into the Warp by accident...

There's nothing in the studio fluff indicating he is.

Then again, it is an entertaining theory. As has been said, the irony would be delicious.

Yeah it completely base off nothing ijust think it be funny cuz
we could assume that maybe hes a daemon lord of khorne
and goinh around inside the warp murduring everything that moves
just feeds khorne power and the rest of the grey knights
just misinterpret it as him helping them!

Why do you see Tzeentch as remotely more moral than, let's say, Slaanesh? He is as much a God of Lies as a God of Truth. Hell, his followers know that they are being deceived, they just don't know how...

Following the 1st Grey Knight novel, even his Deamon of information (gargatuloth I think) basically just love to build cults so that he can flay them later...

If Draigo is a daemon, then that is the best troll in the history of the 40k universe!


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Kovnik Obama wrote:Why do you see Tzeentch as remotely more moral than, let's say, Slaanesh? He is as much a God of Lies as a God of Truth. Hell, his followers know that they are being deceived, they just don't know how...

Following the 1st Grey Knight novel, even his Deamon of information (gargatuloth I think) basically just love to build cults so that he can flay them later...

That's his daemon, not Tzeentch himself. What the daemons do is up to then. Tzeentch just sits there and makes long, intricate plots which he finds extremely humorous...
It's just where I'd put them, and I based them on emotion. That should have been a scale of emotion, really...

Kovnik Obama wrote:Why do you see Tzeentch as remotely more moral than, let's say, Slaanesh? He is as much a God of Lies as a God of Truth. Hell, his followers know that they are being deceived, they just don't know how...

Following the 1st Grey Knight novel, even his Deamon of information (gargatuloth I think) basically just love to build cults so that he can flay them later...

Because kids play this game and he/she is the god of sex? i dunno i think all the chaos gods are good yet evil and same as every other faction good to there own followers blow up anything else that moves..

So back to the topic, then...
Benign daemons; possible but they would have some undesirable traits?

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Question: if Living Saints are 'daemons', isn't that kinda grounds for the Daemonhunters/Khornate Knights to be sent in?

Living Saints having anything to do with the warp at all - and even more them being daemons - is just one theory of many. It's the one I'm holding to, but I feel this should be pointed out. Much like with most of 40k fluff from GW, there are precious few "hard facts" on this subject.

As to the question - I'm sure the Ordo Malleus would be rather interested in this, but of course they'd have to be suspicious at first. The concept of a "good" daemon is so very alien to the Imperium as a whole, I'd reckon the thought simply would not even come up. Also, the Living Saints appear not as "foreign" creatures, but actual people. Possessing (if you'd follow the same theory as I do) the bodies of actual humans known to be examplars of loyalty and faith. Plus, every "candidate" for the title of Living Saint is put through an intensive conclave of Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition officials whose task it is to determine if the individual put forth is truly a Saint, or whether it is an attempt by the Great Enemy to subvert the Imperial faith. So the Inquisition already is involved ... but since we are talking about an Imperial citizen here, thus making it an internal matter rather than having to do with the enemies from beyond the veil, the Inquisitors involved come from the Ordo Hereticus, not the Ordo Malleus. This could also explain a lack of expertise for identifying a Living Saint's true nature, if you will, for I am certain that Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors would look for different signs and employ different methods than Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus when interviewing a subject.

So...if the Malleus does get involved, it could get ugly? Assuming, of course, they realize that Living Saints are 'possessed' in a similar manner to the dregs of Chaos.

Living saints aren't daemons. They are daemonically possessed. It's a small difference, but it's there.

DarknessEternal wrote:Living saints aren't daemons. They are daemonically possessed. It's a small difference, but it's there.

Ok...but what happens if the Malleus catches wind of this? Would they go up in flames or just let it go?

I think it would be flames. Really, the Ordo Malleus just want to kill daemons. That's all they do.
But that's my opinion.

Mynameisalie wrote:I think it would be flames. Really, the Ordo Malleus just want to kill daemons. That's all they do.
But that's my opinion.

So the Daemonhunters/Khornate Knights will be marching on Ophelia VII and other Shrine Worlds? That should be entertaining. I wonder if they'd invite other Chapters into the party. I for one, will relish burning Ophelia VII down.

Let's face it, we all like fire.

Anyway, back on topic...
There is a chance, however slight, that a benign daemon of great power could manifest itself and be a great benefactor to whoever it favours.
I would like to have a benign daemon benefactor.

Mynameisalie wrote:Let's face it, we all like fire.

Anyway, back on topic...
There is a chance, however slight, that a benign daemon of great power could manifest itself and be a great benefactor to whoever it favours.
I would like to have a benign daemon benefactor.

While I believe benign warp entities could exist, I do not think they would survive for long against the other malign entities of the Warp.

If they found shelter amongst a population, perhaps?
I'm saying that, if a benign daemon was fed the emotion and worship it needs, it could become a minor chaos god in its own right. More powerful than a Greater Daemon, but nowhere near as powerful as the 4 ruinous powers. They just need a push in the right direction. Hence, you have a chaos good that stands for purity, but can also manifest itself like a daemon would.

Mynameisalie wrote:If they found shelter amongst a population, perhaps?
I'm saying that, if a benign daemon was fed the emotion and worship it needs, it could become a minor chaos god in its own right. More powerful than a Greater Daemon, but nowhere near as powerful as the 4 ruinous powers. They just need a push in the right direction. Hence, you have a chaos good that stands for purity, but can also manifest itself like a daemon would.

Isn't that what the thread's hypothesis on Living Saints are? Either way, the Malleus wouldn't let the matter go if they catch wind of it.

Which would be pretty freaking epic. This can also be the classic GRIMDARK thing, as it stands beside a race it has chosen to bestow it's blessings on. It could even help them on the material plane, if need be.

I don't think it's as simple as anger=bloodletters, lust=daemonettes, or anything like that. I don't think a specific type of emotion actually creates an analogous type of daemon.

I think instead certain daemons find different emotions more palatable

Tadashi wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:If they found shelter amongst a population, perhaps?
I'm saying that, if a benign daemon was fed the emotion and worship it needs, it could become a minor chaos god in its own right. More powerful than a Greater Daemon, but nowhere near as powerful as the 4 ruinous powers. They just need a push in the right direction. Hence, you have a chaos good that stands for purity, but can also manifest itself like a daemon would.

Isn't that what the thread's hypothesis on Living Saints are? Either way, the Malleus wouldn't let the matter go if they catch wind of it.

Yes, it is. And the malleus would probably want to kill it, but others would say no. It depends.

Mynameisalie wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:If they found shelter amongst a population, perhaps?
I'm saying that, if a benign daemon was fed the emotion and worship it needs, it could become a minor chaos god in its own right. More powerful than a Greater Daemon, but nowhere near as powerful as the 4 ruinous powers. They just need a push in the right direction. Hence, you have a chaos good that stands for purity, but can also manifest itself like a daemon would.

Isn't that what the thread's hypothesis on Living Saints are? Either way, the Malleus wouldn't let the matter go if they catch wind of it.

Yes, it is. And the malleus would probably want to kill it, but others would say no. It depends.

Unfortunately for those against it, the Malleus would never give it up. Wasn't there something called the Malleus Remit that allows them to act on anyone they consider touched by the Warp apart from the Emperor himself.