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Tadashi wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:She isn't a daemon (nor probably any other of the Eldar Gods, for that case), just a Warp Entity who isn't a sadistic, twisted Chaos God. I see that as benign.

Only to Eldar...she wouldn't give a damn about Humans, anymore than those pointy-eared limp-wrists do.

While the plaguefather is busy at his cauldron, isha whispers to mortals, seeking to tell them the cures for the poxes she has tasted - Codex Daemons p39

To me that means that Isha does care about humans as much as any other mortal, Nurgles plagues damage the Eldar as much as the Humans, Tau, Orks etc etc.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Yeah, Isha has been brought up and dismissed as 'not a daemon'.

But perhaps they share some aspects of a Chaos God? This is an old piece of fluff

WD 127: When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of his power that had been robbed from him

They are warp gods, the same as the Chaos Gods as they are tied to the warp, perhaps their is a relation?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:She isn't a daemon (nor probably any other of the Eldar Gods, for that case), just a Warp Entity who isn't a sadistic, twisted Chaos God. I see that as benign.

Only to Eldar...she wouldn't give a damn about Humans, anymore than those pointy-eared limp-wrists do.

While the plaguefather is busy at his cauldron, isha whispers to mortals, seeking to tell them the cures for the poxes she has tasted - Codex Daemons p39

To me that means that Isha does care about humans as much as any other mortal, Nurgles plagues damage the Eldar as much as the Humans, Tau, Orks etc etc.

Perhaps...but the Humans don't feel it. Human psykers cannot access the power of Isha like Eldar healers do.. How ironic...Humans step on the Emperor's ideals of reason and enlightenment, and Eldar do not follow Isha - unlike their 'mother', who is kind, merciful, and undiscriminating to all mortals, they are arrogant and condescending...not that Humans are any different.

"I had thought surprise lost to me. What a wonderful lesson to be learned from such primitives. I wonder if...the Bloody-handed God will teach you anything in your turn."

The witch Idranel's last comment is quite troubling.

Tadashi wrote:
Perhaps...but the Humans don't feel it. Human psykers cannot access the power of Isha like Eldar healers do.. How ironic...Humans step on the Emperor's ideals of reason and enlightenment, and Eldar do not follow Isha - unlike their 'mother', who is kind, merciful, and undiscriminating to all mortals, they are arrogant and condescending...not that Humans are any different.
.

Why would a mortal need to be a psyker to listen to a whisper?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Perhaps...but the Humans don't feel it. Human psykers cannot access the power of Isha like Eldar healers do.. How ironic...Humans step on the Emperor's ideals of reason and enlightenment, and Eldar do not follow Isha - unlike their 'mother', who is kind, merciful, and undiscriminating to all mortals, they are arrogant and condescending...not that Humans are any different.
.

Why would a mortal need to be a psyker to listen to a whisper?

If that were the case, why can Humans and other non-Eldar not access her powers and gifts...I see four possibilities.

1) She's dead...only one Craftworld, and a minor and unnamed one at that, believes she yet lives.
2) She doesn't really care for non-Eldar.
3) Dreams and whispers are usually just dismissed as just that or signs of Chaotic influence/daemonic possession.
4) Only psykers can access her powers and gifts, but Eldar have refused to tell Humans how, not that Humans would listen anyway.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Perhaps...but the Humans don't feel it. Human psykers cannot access the power of Isha like Eldar healers do.. How ironic...Humans step on the Emperor's ideals of reason and enlightenment, and Eldar do not follow Isha - unlike their 'mother', who is kind, merciful, and undiscriminating to all mortals, they are arrogant and condescending...not that Humans are any different.
.

Why would a mortal need to be a psyker to listen to a whisper?

If that were the case, why can Humans and other non-Eldar not access her powers and gifts...I see four possibilities.

1) She's dead...only one Craftworld, and a minor and unnamed one at that, believes she yet lives.
2) She doesn't really care for non-Eldar.
3) Dreams and whispers are usually just dismissed as just that or signs of Chaotic influence/daemonic possession.
4) Only psykers can access her powers and gifts, but Eldar have refused to tell Humans how, not that Humans would listen anyway.

Who needs to access gifts or powers if a suggestion of a cure has been planted as an Idea in the subconscious of a mortal?

Tadashi wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:Granted.

The only entity benevolent to us is the old man.

The semi dead one?
I'm loyal to the Chaos Gods, though...
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Perhaps...but the Humans don't feel it. Human psykers cannot access the power of Isha like Eldar healers do.. How ironic...Humans step on the Emperor's ideals of reason and enlightenment, and Eldar do not follow Isha - unlike their 'mother', who is kind, merciful, and undiscriminating to all mortals, they are arrogant and condescending...not that Humans are any different.
.

Why would a mortal need to be a psyker to listen to a whisper?

If that were the case, why can Humans and other non-Eldar not access her powers and gifts...I see four possibilities.

1) She's dead...only one Craftworld, and a minor and unnamed one at that, believes she yet lives.
2) She doesn't really care for non-Eldar.
3) Dreams and whispers are usually just dismissed as just that or signs of Chaotic influence/daemonic possession.
4) Only psykers can access her powers and gifts, but Eldar have refused to tell Humans how, not that Humans would listen anyway.

Who needs to access gifts or powers if a suggestion of a cure has been planted as an Idea in the subconscious of a mortal?

A fair point...but Humans still cannot access her power of healing, just her knowledge. This leads to three possibilities (again):
1) She will only help Humans indirectly, but will not lend her power to Humans directly (unlikely - her nature as a 'goddess of healing and mercy' makes this impossible).
2) Human psykers lack the ability to do so - unlikely, seeing as the Pavoni (to a greater extent) and 'regular' psykers (to a lesser extent) can use biomancy.
3) Humans can access her powers, but don't know how - the Eldar are so far up their fundaments they wouldn't 'lower themselves' to teach Humans how to do it unless Isha told them herself. Its not like Humans would listen either - we wouldn't 'dirty' ourselves by listening to them, unless (once again, a great stroke of irony) the Emperor told us himself.

Mynameisalie wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:Granted.

The only entity benevolent to us is the old man.

The semi dead one?
I'm loyal to the Chaos Gods, though...
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

You're a daemon of Tzeentch...the Blood God will laugh you out of his realm.

Mynameisalie wrote:She isn't a daemon (nor probably any other of the Eldar Gods, for that case), just a Warp Entity who isn't a sadistic, twisted Chaos God. I see that as benign.

Thought the title was benign warp entities, guess I should read the other pages.

Tadashi wrote:

A fair point...but Humans still cannot access her power of healing, just her knowledge. This leads to three possibilities (again):
1) She will only help Humans indirectly, but will not lend her power to Humans directly (unlikely - her nature as a 'goddess of healing and mercy' makes this impossible).
2) Human psykers lack the ability to do so - unlikely, seeing as the Pavoni (to a greater extent) and 'regular' psykers (to a lesser extent) can use biomancy.
3) Humans can access her powers, but don't know how - the Eldar are so far up their fundaments they wouldn't 'lower themselves' to teach Humans how to do it unless Isha told them herself. Its not like Humans would listen either - we wouldn't 'dirty' ourselves by listening to them, unless (once again, a great stroke of irony) the Emperor told us himself.

And I repeat, who needs to access gifts or powers if a suggestion of a cure has been planted as an Idea in the subconscious of a mortal?

Mortals help themselves with guidance, a glance of an unremembered note on a page, an unintentional mixing of concoctions, a revelation of a similarity between previous poxes. All could be regarded as Ishas whispers. Who needs to tap into divine powers for those instances?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

A fair point...but Humans still cannot access her power of healing, just her knowledge. This leads to three possibilities (again):
1) She will only help Humans indirectly, but will not lend her power to Humans directly (unlikely - her nature as a 'goddess of healing and mercy' makes this impossible).
2) Human psykers lack the ability to do so - unlikely, seeing as the Pavoni (to a greater extent) and 'regular' psykers (to a lesser extent) can use biomancy.
3) Humans can access her powers, but don't know how - the Eldar are so far up their fundaments they wouldn't 'lower themselves' to teach Humans how to do it unless Isha told them herself. Its not like Humans would listen either - we wouldn't 'dirty' ourselves by listening to them, unless (once again, a great stroke of irony) the Emperor told us himself.

And I repeat, who needs to access gifts or powers if a suggestion of a cure has been planted as an Idea in the subconscious of a mortal?

Mortals help themselves with guidance, a glance of an unremembered note on a page, an unintentional mixing of concoctions, a revelation of a similarity between previous poxes. All could be regarded as Ishas whispers. Who needs to tap into divine powers for those instances?

Eldar certainly do...the so-called 'Trees of Isha' from Path of the Warrior.

Tadashi wrote:

Eldar certainly do...the so-called 'Trees of Isha' from Path of the Warrior.

So an Eldar needs to use psychic powers to look at a book or to pick up some vials and mix their contents together or study a specimen with a plague?

Well that's just dandy, bit of luck humans can just go on hunches and instinct isn't it then.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Eldar certainly do...the so-called 'Trees of Isha' from Path of the Warrior.

So an Eldar needs to use psychic powers to look at a book or to pick up some vials and mix their contents together or study a specimen with a plague?

Well that's just dandy, bit of luck humans can just go on hunches and instinct isn't it then.

I meant direct healing as opposed to mixing up cures and such.

Maybe the negative daemon gods are suppressing the positive, because they have a greater source of power (it being the grim, dark future of course, not the happy happy googley eyes happy-ending-where-everyone-finds-a-true-love-and-the-bad-guys-go-to-jail-and-they-all-live-happily-ever-after future Disney movie)

Sandpriest1 wrote:Maybe the negative daemon gods are suppressing the positive, because they have a greater source of power (it being the grim, dark future of course, not the happy happy googley eyes happy-ending-where-everyone-finds-a-true-love-and-the-bad-guys-go-to-jail-and-they-all-live-happily-ever-after future Disney movie)

Yes, in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millineum there is only war! And that's just fine with the Chaos gods.

Tadashi wrote:Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.

This is just straight up wrong. There were already Japanese prisoners, thus this is a false statement because the Empire already wasn't fighting to the last man. Second, go ahead and actually look into the history of what happened. Not only were they fed lies by the corrupt military rulers that left the Emperor (who wanted to surrender earlier than Japan actually did) with no power, but many of them did not want the war to continue. It would have been a horrific loss of life on both sides, but they honestly would not have fought to the last man. That is just laughable and you need to do a bit of research. Sorry....I had too. Will not derail again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mynameisalie wrote:
On the 40k wiki, the Immaterium is:

I'm not done reading through the thread, and I'm sure it is said elsewhere, but 40K wiki is not a reliable source and at times is more fan-fiction than legitimate lore fact.

Additionally, I do not think a friendly/kind warp entity is very likely. I think back when the Eldar gods were made, back when the Warp was still and not chaotic there would be a chance of this. This is why the Eldar Gods aren't like the current Chaos gods, the Warp itself wasn't torn apart by humans yet. As such, it was able to make entities that had order and reason to them. At this time yes, "good" warp entities could come about as we've seen from the Eldar gods.

However, I believe those times are gone. The Warp is now a raging ocean of emotions, mostly extremely negative. Due to it's current nature and knowing what it use to be, and now what it is, I think the opportunity for this has passed and it has essentially been "ruined" by humans. Most likely because the internal drive for humans is never naturally nice or kind. It is always selfish and unthinking of others. Exactly like the chaos gods are.

Also I have to say this just because....I think you need a bit more work on the Lynx-Crystal thing. The Daemon cannot be linked to anything, the Lynx need a reason why the Imperium doesn't just wipe them out, and the whole thing screams of FURRY and doesn't fit into the realm of 40K all that well.

Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.

This is just straight up wrong. There were already Japanese prisoners, thus this is a false statement because the Empire already wasn't fighting to the last man. Second, go ahead and actually look into the history of what happened. Not only were they fed lies by the corrupt military rulers that left the Emperor (who wanted to surrender earlier than Japan actually did) with no power, but many of them did not want the war to continue. It would have been a horrific loss of life on both sides, but they honestly would not have fought to the last man. That is just laughable and you need to do a bit of research. Sorry....I had too. Will not derail again.

I believe getting told about what really happened by those who lived through the war (from both sides - I have both Filipino and Japanese relatives) beats potentially-biased history books/researchers any day. Japan would have fought to the bitter end, believe me.

Any remaining prisoners/refugees once the war would be over would just go the way the Native American Indians went...just another ignored crime in history...Thank God for Nuclear Weapons and 'King' MacArthur.

Tadashi wrote:I believe getting told about what really happened by those who lived through the war (from both sides - I have both Filipino and Japanese relatives) beats potentially-biased history books/researchers any day. Japan would have fought to the bitter end, believe me.

Any remaining prisoners/refugees once the war would be over would just go the way the Native American Indians went...just another ignored crime in history...Thank God for Nuclear Weapons and 'King' MacArthur.

These are documentaries about people who did go through the War, and more of them than just two. Additionally two relatives cannot represent the whole of the country, not by a long shot. Fighting to the bitter end is much different than "The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...". Nazi Germany fought to the bitter end, but not to every last man, woman, and child. If you state it that way than you are right. You were previously wrong, and your original statement was wrong due to prisoners at minimum.

Also no side of the war can talk about war crimes. Both were horrible when it came to that, and no side can claim to be better than the other. From the A-bombs to the Nanking Massacre.

Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I believe getting told about what really happened by those who lived through the war (from both sides - I have both Filipino and Japanese relatives) beats potentially-biased history books/researchers any day. Japan would have fought to the bitter end, believe me.

Any remaining prisoners/refugees once the war would be over would just go the way the Native American Indians went...just another ignored crime in history...Thank God for Nuclear Weapons and 'King' MacArthur.

These are documentaries about people who did go through the War, and more of them than just two. Fighting to the bitter end is different than "The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...". Nazi Germany fought to the bitter end, but not to every last man, woman, and child. If you state it that way than you are right. You were previously wrong, and your original statement was wrong due to prisoners at minimum.

My mistake...Japan would have fought to the bitter end, though, and that is not something I'm backing down on. My grandmother was only twelve at the time, but she made it clear only because the Showa Emperor ordered a surrender and cooperated with MacArthur that things went the way they went. The Allies hadn't exactly endeared themselves, burning half of Tokyo and many other cities to ashes, and nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki - necessary, she (and I) conceded, but unforgivable. But the Emperor commanded, and they obeyed. Nothing else needs to be said.

Also no side of the war can talk about war crimes. Both were horrible when it came to that, and no side can claim to bet better than the other. From the A-bombs to the Nanking Massacre.

True enough...my grandmother and many other relatives curse the Imperial Army, saying that they shamed themselves compared to the Imperial Navy (which opposed the very idea of war and only did so because it was their duty to obey) and it was they who had to bear most of the blame for the fall of our empire.

Tadashi wrote:My mistake...Japan would have fought to the bitter end, though, and that is not something I'm backing down on. My grandmother was only twelve at the time, but she made it clear only because the Showa Emperor ordered a surrender and cooperated with MacArthur that things went the way they went. The Allies hadn't exactly endeared themselves, burning half of Tokyo and many other cities to ashes, and nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki - necessary, she (and I) conceded, but unforgivable. But the Emperor commanded, and they obeyed. Nothing else needs to be said.

I fully believe that. That was the culture at the time, and you are entirely right. I would give you are "large percentage" would have fought until the end, and only when it was obviously hopeless would any of them have given up. Just trying to straighten out an exaggeration which is ultimately what was attempting to be done before. And really as said before, nothing was done worse to Japan by the USA than Japan did to China. Nobody is clean of it, nobody can say they were better than others. All participated.

Tadashi wrote:
True enough...my grandmother and many other relatives curse the Imperial Army, saying that they shamed themselves compared to the Imperial Navy (which opposed the very idea of war and only did so because it was their duty to obey) and it was they who had to bear most of the blame for the fall of our empire.

According to Konoe's Feb 1945 report, the possibility of a revolution against the Emperor was serious.

Yamamoto had a better grasp of the forces involved than the army did, having actually studied at Harvard and served as the Naval Attache in Washington. However, their real shame was the attempt, even in the light of the Emperor's final decision on the matter following the nuclear attacks, to defy the Emperor's will. The Kyūjō Incident will forever be a stain on the honor of the Japanese military.

So you mean like Justice from Dragon Age: Awakening? (For not Evil 'spirits', that is)

Crazyterran wrote:So you mean like Justice from Dragon Age: Awakening? (For not Evil 'spirits', that is)

I wouldn't call Justice good or benign...he was a bit of a dick.
Too...Black and White.

There are already Benign Warp Entities in the fluff:

* Celestine.
* The Sanguinor

These are only two examples. The Legion of the Damned are also in a sense benign warp entities bound to serve the Imperium of Man and the Will of the Emperor.

Some might argue, the Emperor also qualifies as a warp entity.

IdentifyZero wrote:There are already Benign Warp Entities in the fluff:

* Celestine.
* The Sanguinor

These are only two examples. The Legion of the Damned are also in a sense benign warp entities bound to serve the Imperium of Man and the Will of the Emperor.

Some might argue, the Emperor also qualifies as a warp entity.

They aren't benign, they go around slaughtering other beings without hesitation.

Nor is the Emperor, he's also quite guilty as well.

Benign is a relative term in 40K. I would suggest, though, that Celestine doesn't count.... she's a Living Saint, not a Warp Entity. The Sanguinor? OK, that one I will give you.

What the Sanguinor is or is not is still a mystery, but fluff seems to lean towards him being the psychic remnants of Sanguinius (Sanguinius was a very powerful psyker).

 blood reaper wrote:


40K should not have a positive.

It is the Grim Darkness, their is no hope for anyone, morality isn't cared for and most current day human being couldn't stand it.

Don't try to add morals or hope to it, because you will ruin it.

I would disagree.

What you described isn't grimdark, but shitdark.

"Not the soaring, operatic darkness of the 41st millenium, but a setting so relentlessly gakky and horrible that it is impossible to care about it."
- Holden Shearer (Paraphrased), I think this quote describes the difference well.

Without something to hope for, loss and death isn't tragic, it's just an immutable fact of the universe.

The mere glimmer of hope for salvation, no matter how insignifigant, makes the ensuing, crushing loss all the more horrible. That is grimdark.

 Lynata wrote:
Unfortunately, that's not quite how Chaos works at all.

Indeed, it is as if people believe that a bunch of people suddenly though "Welp, I think I'm gonna start believing in some horrible and evil gods to make me suffer".

It wasn't religion which created Chaos, but conflict, the War in Heaven.

As for the topic... I'd say Daemons with positive traits are certainly possible, like a Bloodthirster valuing martial honor that only kills combatants, and is disinterested in the slaughter of the defenseless, and in some cases they are canon (Albeit, in a twisted fashion as is common with Nurgle daemons). Hell, Beasts of Nurgle per the fluff don't want to harm you, the death they cause is entirely unintentional, they just want to hug and play with you. But considering the sheer fact of what daemons are created to do, wage wars on the other Chaos Gods and mortals, them being wholly "benign" seems impossible.

Now, just straight up Warp Entities is of course possible. Look at Isha. She's a Warp Entity, and is shown to be benign, there is exactly no fluff describing her as otherwise.

*Leaves the forum for another month or two before making another post*

 Void__Dragon wrote:


I would disagree.

What you described isn't grimdark, but shitdark.

"Not the soaring, operatic darkness of the 41st millenium, but a setting so relentlessly gakky and horrible that it is impossible to care about it."
- Holden Shearer (Paraphrased), I think this quote describes the difference well.

Without something to hope for, loss and death isn't tragic, it's just an immutable fact of the universe.

The mere glimmer of hope for salvation, no matter how insignifigant, makes the ensuing, crushing loss all the more horrible. That is grimdark.

It's one of the reasons that people bitch and moan about BL. To make a decent novel, that characters have to have at least some hope and have to at least resemble to what people would recognize as human, so the reader can at least relate a little. If you bring up characters from BL novels as an example of something (pretty much no matter what it is) the first words out of the grimderp crowd is that 'those are exceptions!'. This recently came up in the ongoing playtest of OW, with what exactly a commisar's role should be. The debate quickly became polarized between the 'Yarrick/Gaunt/Cain/Forres' view and the 'Be more afraid of me then them' view. The problem is that the majority of people who would want to actually play a commisar are the ones who are most likely to go with the former rather then the latter.

Oh, yay, the thread still lives.

 Tadashi wrote:

Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.

This is just straight up wrong. There were already Japanese prisoners, thus this is a false statement because the Empire already wasn't fighting to the last man. Second, go ahead and actually look into the history of what happened. Not only were they fed lies by the corrupt military rulers that left the Emperor (who wanted to surrender earlier than Japan actually did) with no power, but many of them did not want the war to continue. It would have been a horrific loss of life on both sides, but they honestly would not have fought to the last man. That is just laughable and you need to do a bit of research. Sorry....I had too. Will not derail again.

I believe getting told about what really happened by those who lived through the war (from both sides - I have both Filipino and Japanese relatives) beats potentially-biased history books/researchers any day. Japan would have fought to the bitter end, believe me.

Any remaining prisoners/refugees once the war would be over would just go the way the Native American Indians went...just another ignored crime in history...Thank God for Nuclear Weapons and 'King' MacArthur.

Yep totaly agree and when they found guys during 70's ( hiding ,not willing to surrender) , wow

 DarthMarko wrote:

Yep totaly agree and when they found guys during 70's ( hiding ,not willing to surrender) , wow

Eh, My grandfather managed to take a Japanese prisoner early on when they shot down his float plane.

Then again, he was also quite willing to tell the story about Okinawa and how the Japanese army made sure that those that wanted to surrender, didn't, slaughtering the civilians and telling them the Americans were going to come and rape and murder them all, so it was better to die now. They likely might have fought to the last, all right. And been damn sure they were the last before hand.