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If malevolent daemons are created and driven by negative emotion, then what about positive emotion? Love, courage, happiness etc could all form into a manifestation of purity, ie a benign daemon. The Chaos Gods, as well, are not biased Gods. The IoM just thinks they are evil, totally and utterly. Well, not actually as much as they believe. Slaanesh, the prince of pleasure. Bliss and happiness could be considered as positive emotion. Nurgle. Plague marines call him Father Nurgle as he loves his followers, and (in a rather perverted way) the Eldar God Isha. He saved her from being devoured by Slaanesh! That's got to count for something right?
The positive emotion of Loyalty in the entire of the IoM will amount to something. It's just that it hasn't revealed itself yet or is not quite conscious; it needs more of that emotion. The base line of this is that benign daemons are very likely to exist, but are hidden behind the torrent of negative emotion that is the Chaos Daemons.
Sources: Threads from other forums, 40k wiki.
Your thoughts?

Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.

Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?

Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.

Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?

Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.

Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.

The Sanguinor may be another example of a "good" daemon. I dont think its explicitly stated anywhere, though.

DemetriDominov wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.

Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?

Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.

Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.

Compassion and love taken to their furthest extremes are smothering and obsessive. Not what I'd call good.

There already is a Chaos God of Hope. Tzeentch's raw primal emotion is hope. Hope leads to ambition, ambition leads to change.

I'm just stating what I think. And asking what you guys think. I'm not really going to get involved with this. Also, it says on the 40k wiki:
A Daemon is an intelligent and usually malevolent entity of the Warp that is a living embodiment of Chaos.
This hints that there are some non-malevolent daemons. I'm just saying. If that helps.

It was my understanding that only "negative" emotions translate into sentience in the War[.

On the 40k wiki it doesn't say that only negative emotions translate from the material plane to the Immaterium, so you may take this in your own view.
I, personally, believe this means all emotions translate through. So, theoretically, beings made of positive emotion should exist.
It doesn't say anywhere in the 40k fluff this isn't true. So you can assume; this is why I see the 40k fluff as being so flexible. It trails off in places, allowing you to decide exactly how that path ends.

I'm not entirely sure my mind could handle seeing a Greater Daemon of Happiness. I imagine it would be covered in cupcakes and fluffy kittens.

DemetriDominov wrote:Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.

This sounds plausible to me.

Nitros14 wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.

Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?

Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.

Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.

Compassion and love taken to their furthest extremes are smothering and obsessive. Not what I'd call good.

There already is a Chaos God of Hope. Tzeentch's raw primal emotion is hope. Hope leads to ambition, ambition leads to change.

Change... Leads to suffering...

Mynameisalie wrote:I'm just stating what I think. And asking what you guys think. I'm not really going to get involved with this. Also, it says on the 40k wiki:
A Daemon is an intelligent and usually malevolent entity of the Warp that is a living embodiment of Chaos.
This hints that there are some non-malevolent daemons. I'm just saying. If that helps.

Clapping your hands on your ears and going "I CAN'T HEAR YOU" is not a good argument tactic, dude. You asked for opinions, and now you got em. Just because they don't match what you want shouldn't mean you pitch a fit.

That said, the issue I have is there, frankly, when you compare how much negative emotion is going on in the 40k universe, the amount of positive is so small that you aren't gonna be getting any amount of 'good ' deaemons, apart from the aforementioned Sanguinor and perhaps living saints. There's no Greater Demons of Decent First Dates or anything like that simply because there's a hell of a lot more rage/war, excess, ambition and decay going on.

Also, Loyalty can easily be made into a negative emotion. Hell, there's an example in the 40k universe itself, the Imperium. Blind, unquestioning loyalty has completely hamstrung the Imperium.

No, I meant it's just for other people to discuss it as well. All I was saying is that benign daemons, whilst unlikely, could still be possible. I'm not saying "Yes there are daemons that are nice" I'm saying "There could be daemons in the Warp that are nice. You guys discuss that while I go have coffee."
I'm actually noting all this down. On paper. For future reference. So I am listening, just trying to distance myself. That way a lot of things will stay nice. I've got involved in quite a few things on these forums, and they often don't turn out well...


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Fervor wrote:I'm not entirely sure my mind could handle seeing a Greater Daemon of Happiness. I imagine it would be covered in cupcakes and fluffy kittens.

DemetriDominov wrote:Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.

This sounds plausible to me.

Really? I thought it might just take an embodiment of a pleasing form, not something that terrifies the gak out of someone when they look at it. Like an angel, I guess. Like the sanguinor. Not implying anything here.

Long ago 'Daemons of Law' were indeed part of the Warhammer mythos; unsurprisingly they looked like angels. 'Lawful', of course, doesn't mean the same as 'good'...

DemetriDominov wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.

Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?

Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.

Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.

Love then becomes, jelousy, then hatred,

hotsauceman1 wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.

Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?

Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.

Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.

Love then becomes, jelousy, then hatred,

I see where you're going with that, but may I just point out, Nurgle embodies love (in a weird, perverted way), as he fathers over those who dedicate themselves to him. So, love is actually positive in this case. I really think it depends to what end you wish or want the emotion to eventually become. If it's love, if you continually love someone, and don't let anything corrupt that love, then that would be a positive emotion.
But anyway, carry on guys, love the way this is going!
*Slurps coffee*


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English Assassin wrote:Long ago 'Daemons of Law' were indeed part of the Warhammer mythos; unsurprisingly they looked like angels. 'Lawful', of course, doesn't mean the same as 'good'...

Well, ones that don't want to obliterate anything and everything they see. And (quite unlikely) maybe even want to support particular beings they like in a good way. Like endowing them with chaotic gifts, but not actually forcing them to turn to chaos. Like: "Here you go, you can be a psyker now, cause I lieks you " or "You really deserve something special... I know! You can have better strength and speed!"
Damn, I really shouldn't have made that second post...

Depends on what you'd see as "good", but in the context of 40k I'm guessing this means "Imperial daemons". So I've voted for "depends on the circumstances".

Emotions and thoughts can birth daemons. I kind of regard the Warp like that purple slime from Ghostbusters II, if anyone remembers. But since the setting is dominated by negative emotions such as hatred and bloodlust, the most common daemons are unsurprisingly evil ones, those leaning towards the side of Chaos. Yet there may be times when mass congregations of people end up in an emotional turmoil of feelings like hope and faith that this would result in the appearance of a different kind of daemon - a Living Saint. At least that's my theory.

In fact ...

English Assassin wrote:Long ago 'Daemons of Law' were indeed part of the Warhammer mythos; unsurprisingly they looked like angels.

So kinda like this?

Lynata wrote:Depends on what you'd see as "good", but in the context of 40k I'm guessing this means "Imperial daemons". So I've voted for "depends on the circumstances".

Emotions and thoughts can birth daemons. I kind of regard the Warp like that purple slime from Ghostbusters II, if anyone remembers. But since the setting is dominated by negative emotions such as hatred and bloodlust, the most common daemons are unsurprisingly evil ones, those leaning towards the side of Chaos. Yet there may be times when mass congregations of people end up in an emotional turmoil of feelings like hope and faith that this would result in the appearance of a different kind of daemon - a Living Saint. At least that's my theory.

In fact ...

English Assassin wrote:Long ago 'Daemons of Law' were indeed part of the Warhammer mythos; unsurprisingly they looked like angels.

So kinda like this?

So, you mean like, a daemon manifesting itself as a physical being?
I don't really mean leaning to wards the Imperium's favour, it could be any race! Depends on who the Angel/Daemon favours.
I just looked at that picture again and my eyes fell out of my head. That's actually quite beautiful. That is definitely how I pictured them.

Yes, unfortunantly the 4 Chaos gods also embody good emotions as well as bad. But because the universe has so much bad stuff the Chaos Gods are mostly bad.


Khorne represents martial pride and honor as much as senseless violence.

Slannesh represents the desire for perfection in all things.

Nurgle represents caring and paternal love.

Tzeentch represents knowledge and the desire for truth.


Of the 4, only Tzeentch has decently good undertones that are strong enough to appear.

So is that depends on the Chaos God?
And how is it unfortunate? It proves that there is at least a shred of goodness in nearly all things (malevolent daemons excluded). I know that isn't GRIMDARK, but it's the pure truth. And Tzeentch also demonstrates Hope, I believe.

Mynameisalie wrote:So, you mean like, a daemon manifesting itself as a physical being?

Yup - although in the case of the Living Saint it would be a daemon possessing one of the living!

Here's a more detailed explanation I wrote for another thread:
The emotions of a large mass of people, all united in both terror and faith, praying to the Emperor for deliverance - this immense outburst, this vortex of hope, despair and hate would grow until it is strong enough to be given form within the twisting nethers of the warp, especially in crisis zones where the veil has already been weakened. This newborn entity, driven by the need to protect and avenge, would descend upon the battlefield, a shapeless existence summoned to the focal point of this wreathing mass of pained human bodies, where it would seek out and possess one of the most faithful, someone most suited to act as a conduit to draw this thought-being into realspace. Upon that moment, this individual will be filled by holy hatred and a purpose magnified by the local masses, tapping an invisible connection to the warp to exert their newfound power.
Yet even as this avenging angel begins her terrible harvest upon the enemies of Mankind, the despair and terror of the masses slowly give way to satisfaction, then indifference. Finally, separated from its home plane and sapped of power, the Living Saint will slowly burn out until, leaving the host body a wrecked shell unable to persist on its own.

Mynameisalie wrote:I don't really mean leaning to wards the Imperium's favour, it could be any race!

I'd think any race that has a connection to the warp can "summon" daemons - good or bad. The prevailing culture would determine the more likely outcome, of course.
Didn't somebody have a theory about how Eldar Avatars are daemons, too?

Mynameisalie wrote:I just looked at that picture again and my eyes fell out of my head. That's actually quite beautiful. That is definitely how I pictured them.

"Celestine rose from the tomb, borne aloft on a column of divine radiance and attended by cherubs and doves. She was now clad in a suit of shining golden armour, wielding a blade wreathed in sweet-scented petals, its blade so bright none could bear look upon it. She gazed around, and all who dared meet her eyes were struck down by equal parts heavenly adoration and infernal terror."

that's one thin veil...


daemons don't make people in to psykers -- though, if any of them could, they would probably be servants of Tzeentch. in the CSM codex, you'll notice that marks of chaos, which are a kind of 'support' offered by daemonkind, only give psychic powers to units that were already psykers in the first place.

and think about this for a moment: if daemons could churn out psykers, wouldn't they be doing it ALL THE TIME? like, they wouldn't even have to manifest in the Materium, they could flit by in the Warp and go "and YOU get psychic powers! and YOU get psychic powers!" and cause invasions on demand when the plebs brains explode under the weight of power that they weren't meant to have.

otherwise they are chaotic gifts that affect them positively and negatively in some way. the Rubric of Ahriman is a good example of an attempt to circumvent this, and it worked, at the cost of every non-psyker in the Thousand Sons.

This thread is probably a definite yes then.
Or more likely a depends on the emotion/chaos god.

All the Avatars are pieces of the Eldar god Khaine. They are Daemons for rules purposes. Fluffwise, they are pieces of one of the last surviving Eldar Gods.

Drakmord wrote:that's one thin veil...


daemons don't make people in to psykers -- though, if any of them could, they would probably be servants of Tzeentch. in the CSM codex, you'll notice that marks of chaos, which are a kind of 'support' offered by daemonkind, only give psychic powers to units that were already psykers in the first place.

and think about this for a moment: if daemons could churn out psykers, wouldn't they be doing it ALL THE TIME? like, they wouldn't even have to manifest in the Materium, they could flit by in the Warp and go "and YOU get psychic powers! and YOU get psychic powers!" and cause invasions on demand when the plebs brains explode under the weight of power that they weren't meant to have.

otherwise they are chaotic gifts that affect them positively and negatively in some way. the Rubric of Ahriman is a good example of an attempt to circumvent this, and it worked, at the cost of every non-psyker in the Thousand Sons.

Yep. Being turned into dust, mind warped into a brainless automaton and stuck inside your armour for all eternity seems quite negative. On the other hand, being made into awesomepsykers is quite good.
*Finishes off coffee*
BRING ME ANOTHER!

Good is a point a view. To the terrified heathen tribe being massacred by the Imperial Guard the daemonettes they summon would be good, or at least less bad. So yes good daemons exist.

good as in:
"deigns to help an individual(s) achieve a positive goal"
That's what I'm going for.
In a way.
But yeah, that's pretty much banging the nail on the head.


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I just had another thought. If a daemon appeared to a populace in an hour of great need, wishing to help them selflessly and without reward, but then became worshipped, wouldn't it then become a God in it's own right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Example of a benign Daemon:
Daemon of Hope, therefore its origin is Tzeentch. Can exercise psychic powers, but only uses them if they will benefit a chosen individual or a chosen populace (Greater daemon, very rare).
Just a thought...

No, never, no. What? No. Not ever, no. They seek to control and consume.

Grey Templar wrote:All the Avatars are pieces of the Eldar god Khaine. They are Daemons for rules purposes. Fluffwise, they are pieces of one of the last surviving Eldar Gods.

Said gods being gods like the Chaos Gods?

Actually, "Khaine" is suspiciously close to "Khorne", phonetically speaking. And look what effect the Avatars supposedly have on nearby Eldar when they appear.
I would not be surprised if there is a direct connection between Khaine and Khorne - essentially being two sides of the same coin, or possibly Khorne having evolved out of Khaine. If emotions are capable of creating gods, perhaps they are also capable of influencing them, which would see Khaine being corrupted into Khorne.

Such duality is a popular concept in various settings; in the German P&P RPG "The Dark Eye", there are rumours that the so-called arch-daemons are basically "mirrors" of the gods of the lawful pantheon, or that they are even one and the same. Of course, the affiliated churches condemn such theories as heresy most vile.

Please, you above all others should know that Khaine(in 40k at least) is not related to Khorne.

He's been around far longer then the Chaos Gods have.



In Fantesy its a different story. Khaine is hinted at being mearly a facet of Khorne. Hence why the HEs don't openly worship Khaine. He is mearly aknowledged.

Grey Templar wrote:He's been around far longer then the Chaos Gods have.

Hence my theory that Khaine could have evolved into Khorne, since the thoughs and emotions of the people have a direct influence on the warp, thusly "tainting" it. And as new races popped up all over the galaxy, all with their own violent cultures ...

Actually, how long has Khorne been around? I only know of Slaanesh being "fairly new".