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I'm not focusing entirely on the Imperium. This could be for any race.
But yes, the Malleus would hound the point until they got their way: Execution or exterminatus, which is how they nromally get things done.

Mynameisalie wrote:I'm not focusing entirely on the Imperium. This could be for any race.

The Eldar may have accepted it with the old Eldar Gods, or the nascent Ynnead.

But yes, the Malleus would hound the point until they got their way: Execution or exterminatus, which is how they nromally get things done.

Which makes all the more exciting if they found out...the Ecclesiarchy would be reduced to simply another Chaos Cult, and the Astartes and the Mechanicum will finally have the chance to take out their grievances on the Ecclesiarchy with the blessing of the Ordo Malleus. Fist-bump with the Space Wolves, and a thousand light-year rampage to Ophelia VII.

Don't the Ecclesiarchy worship the Emperor? Or the God-Emperor, as they call him? Actually, the Emperor may just become a God if he truly dies. He has a strong enough psychic essence, that and the adoration and faith of trillions of souls.
Actually that brought a really odd thought into my head. The Emperor dies, then he ends up in the Warp. It turns out Khorne just wants to have a swordfight and Tzeentch has been waiting 42,000 years to play a chess match with him, like they've been pals since he was born. That would be quite funny.

Mynameisalie wrote:Don't the Ecclesiarchy worship the Emperor? Or the God-Emperor, as they call him? Actually, the Emperor may just become a God if he truly dies. He has a strong enough psychic essence, that and the adoration and faith of trillions of souls.

Except that the revered Living Saints are daemons...which would send the Ordo Malleus up in flames.

Actually that brought a really odd thought into my head. The Emperor dies, then he ends up in the Warp. It turns out Khorne just wants to have a swordfight and Tzeentch has been waiting 42,000 years to play a chess match with him, like they've been pals since he was born. That would be quite funny.

LOL...Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle welcome their long-separated younger brother with pats on the back, and his younger sister Slaanesh embraces him and kisses him on the cheek. LMAO.

IKR?
Truth is, the Chaos Gods aren't evil as such. I think that they're really governed by the balance of emotion that makes them. So say (I know this isn't GRIMDARK) the galaxy finally came to some sort of agreement, and everything was all right again (stupid, I know), the positive emotion would dominate negative and the chaos gods would become more benign deities.

I'm just saying.

And isn't Slaanesh older than the Emperor?
That makes my head hurt.


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That sounds really strange.

Mynameisalie wrote:IKR?
Truth is, the Chaos Gods aren't evil as such. I think that they're really governed by the balance of emotion that makes them. So say (I know this isn't GRIMDARK) the galaxy finally came to some sort of agreement, and everything was all right again (stupid, I know), the positive emotion would dominate negative and the chaos gods would become more benign deities.

I'm just saying.

And isn't Slaanesh older than the Emperor?
That makes my head hurt.

Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle 'awakened' around the middle of the Dark Ages, but they came into existence (if not sentience) during the War in Heaven. Since the Emperor was born around 3000 BC, that would make the older than the Emperor. Slaanesh came into existence (but not sentience) as the Eldar Empire fell into decadence during the M20s. She would achieve full sentience only at the moment of the Fall of the Eldar itself.

Ahh.
Shall we just say Slaanesh is an it? Slaanesh can be Male, Female, Hermaphroditic (that makes me really uncomfortable) or none of those.
Slaanseh is definitely the strangest god.

Mynameisalie wrote:Ahh.
Shall we just say Slaanesh is an it? Slaanesh can be Male, Female, Hermaphroditic (that makes me really uncomfortable) or none of those.
Slaanseh is definitely the strangest god.

I certainly prefer female.

I wonder...if the Emperor becomes a 'god', could he be the balancer who will make the others 'good'?

And where did you find your sig? I need to read whatever it came from.


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Tadashi wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:Ahh.
Shall we just say Slaanesh is an it? Slaanesh can be Male, Female, Hermaphroditic (that makes me really uncomfortable) or none of those.
Slaanseh is definitely the strangest god.

I certainly prefer female.

I wonder...if the Emperor becomes a 'god', could he be the balancer who will make the others 'good'?

Probs yes.
And the female thing made me giggle. But yes, the Kaos Gods need a female.


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I can just imagine the Emperor just striding in to each of the 4 Gods Realms and saying
"No, no, no! You're doing this all wrong! Try being like me for a change! You know, actually helping people and not just killing them! May myself damn it, you guys have had the wrong idea for 45,000 years. It's time for a change!"

Mynameisalie wrote:And where did you find your sig? I need to read whatever it came from.

Rogue Trader: Into the Maw

Tadashi wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:Ahh.
Shall we just say Slaanesh is an it? Slaanesh can be Male, Female, Hermaphroditic (that makes me really uncomfortable) or none of those.
Slaanseh is definitely the strangest god.

I certainly prefer female.

I wonder...if the Emperor becomes a 'god', could he be the balancer who will make the others 'good'?

Probs yes.
And the female thing made me giggle. But yes, the Kaos Gods need a female.

I can just imagine the Emperor just striding in to each of the 4 Gods Realms and saying
"No, no, no! You're doing this all wrong! Try being like me for a change! You know, actually helping people and not just killing them! May myself damn it, you guys have had the wrong idea for 45,000 years. It's time for a change!"

I don't think the other Gods would be too pleased with the Emperor controlling their realm. He more fits the shining protector role. Sheltering those whose bodies have died, and their souls must carry on. He shelters them underneath his Divine Glory.
I'm sounding like a fething priest now. But it's a fantasy that I bet secretly a lot of people want 40k to eventually end as.

Mynameisalie wrote:I don't think the other Gods would be too pleased with the Emperor controlling their realm. He more fits the shining protector role. Sheltering those whose bodies have died, and their souls must carry on. He shelters them underneath his Divine Glory.
I'm sounding like a fething priest now. But it's a fantasy that I bet secretly a lot of people want 40k to eventually end as.

Yup...so long as I get to kill priests and every member of the Ecclesiarchy I can find.

And what do you think would be a good theme tune for a 40k film. One that's something like a sequel, from the beginning of the 40k universe to the current day, and maybe even concluding it. That would be fething epic.
I have a whole playlist of songs for that role

Tadashi wrote:Question: if Living Saints are 'daemons'

They aren't.

There is no warp taint in the Living Saints.

Tadashi wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:I don't think the other Gods would be too pleased with the Emperor controlling their realm. He more fits the shining protector role. Sheltering those whose bodies have died, and their souls must carry on. He shelters them underneath his Divine Glory.
I'm sounding like a fething priest now. But it's a fantasy that I bet secretly a lot of people want 40k to eventually end as.

Yup...so long as I get to kill priests and every member of the Ecclesiarchy I can find.

U no like Ecclesiarchy, don't you?
I hate the b****** as well. They've perverted everything the Emperor was. They worship him when he clearly explained not to worship him as a god. How? He levelled an entire city to get people to agree. That's how you resolve a religious issue in 40k.


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Like a bouse.

Mynameisalie wrote:They've perverted everything the Emperor was.

A cute little burst of misdirected rage, but the Emperor has in fact endorsed the Ecclesiarchy to some extent, through His direct and consistent support of the Sisters of Battle.

If you need an explanation, it's quite simple-- He would rather that the Imperium worship Him than risk them worshiping the Dark Powers.

Overlord Zerrtin wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:

Overlord Zerrtin wrote:Why do so many people think the chaos gods are bad they can act quite nicely to there subjects if you earn there favor the only thing they openly attack is those who oppose them and dont worship/follow them which is in a sense no different then the imperium itself..

That makes a lot of sense. So basically the IoM is just a chaos god in the material realm...
But the Chaos Gods are like 5 year olds. They are spiteful when they don't get what they want which is the adoration of every single sentient being in the galaxy. Newsflash for them: No-one is Mr. Ultra Popular. Get used to it. Practically every other race in the galaxy isn't getting what it wants, so why should you? Grow up!

Haha so they are exactly like the imperium because if imperial citizens go against the emperor then they are burned and slaughtered for being a heritic so i think of it as
Emperor= chaos god
Imperium= his daemons
And if you go against him the inquisition burns you alive because all humans must live and worship the emporer or die!

The truimph of the Chaos Gods would be pretty much inimical to the continuation of sapient life, since, given the opportunity, they would end all physical constants, plunging the universe into seething, formless, uh, chaos. They are not necessarily motivated by malice in doing so, it's just their nature. The Imperium (as embodied in the Emperor himself) represents something antithetical to that: order, rules and regulations, cold, constant and unchanging. It would be a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the background to see the Emperor as an incipient god of Law, and the living saints as his daemons/avatars - in fact it provides a very sensible explanation for the (otherwise somewhat logically questionable) spreading of the Imperial Truth as the intended means of his ascension as a 'God of Rationality'.

Indeed long ago there were 'Gods of Law' in the Warhammer Fantasy setting, who represented the embodiments of abstract concepts (Alluminas was the god of knowledge, Solkan the god of justice, etc.), who weren't so much friendly to humanity as anti-Chaos; they have largely been forgotten about by the studio, though Solkan is still occasionally mentioned as being followed by witch-hunters. (Like the gods of Chaos, the idea had been pinched by GW from Michael Moorcock; read the later Elric stories and the Second Aether trilogy both for good illustrations of this and to see just how blatant GW's thievery was.) Following Moorcock's cosmology, the triumph of Law would equally bad for sapient life, since it would sweep away all that messy random stuff like free will.

Mynameisalie wrote:They just need a push in the right direction. Hence, you have a chaos good that stands for purity, but can also manifest itself like a daemon would.

The Chaos Gods represent and subsist upon emotion, purity isn't an emotion but a concept - back to daemon of Law territory with that.

Melissia wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Question: if Living Saints are 'daemons'

They aren't.

There is no warp taint in the Living Saints.

Just a hypothesis based from the earlier posts. Besides, the existence of Saints and Acts of Faith have never been confirmed as being unconnected to the Warp. Even the Emperor himself was a mighty psyker.

That makes sense. Thx for clarifying. I'm sort of getting carried away. It's just Tadashi is on my wavelength. Something that I value quite a bit, considering I just moved country. To the UAE.
You learn something new about someone all the time...

Tadashi wrote:Besides, the existence of Saints and Acts of Faith have never been confirmed as being unconnected to the Warp.

Yes they have. Specifically stated not to be, in fact.

Melissia wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:They've perverted everything the Emperor was.

A cute little burst of misdirected rage, but the Emperor has in fact endorsed the Ecclesiarchy to some extent, through His direct and consistent support of the Sisters of Battle.

If you need an explanation, it's quite simple-- He would rather that the Imperium worship Him than risk them worshiping the Dark Powers.

I don't care. The Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum are mewling maggots as far as I'm concerned. The latter I can tolerate along with the Inquisition, but if any of the former's ships appear in the sky over my custom Chapter's homeworld, I'm blowing them out of the sky for 'trespassing'. On the other hand, a Mechanicum ship/s would be welcomed as honored guests.

Tadashi wrote:I don't care.

Then shut up.

Really, you give this nonsensical vomit about disliking them going against hte Emperor's wishes, except they aren't, and then you say you'll blow them out of the sky or some other stupidity. What a crock. At least be consistent.

Melissia wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I don't care.

Then shut up.

Really, you give this nonsensical vomit about disliking them going against hte Emperor's wishes, except they aren't, and then you say you'll blow them out of the sky or some other stupidity. What a crock. At least be consistent.

Monarchia was reduced to ashes, every last one of its inhabitants slaughtered to make an example that the worship of the Emperor would not be tolerated. The Emperor couldn't really intervene as the Ecclesiarchy grew in power seeing as he was confined to the Golden Throne by that time. To make matters worse, when Alicia and the others were brought before him, they received visions that could be interpreted multiple ways. They could simply have interpreted them in a manner that conformed to what they believed in.

Sorry, but Space Marines disdain the Ecclesiarchy. The Space Wolves have already blown them out of the sky once, considering the size of the Imperium, its probable its happened multiple times elsewhere.

And regarding the Acts of Faith, if they're so certain its not connected to the Warp, instead of letting the Ordo Hereticus doing the confirmation, let the Ordo Malleus do it. They're more qualified to judge whether or not something is touched by the Warp or not.

It's possible.
But shall we get back on topic?

Mynameisalie wrote:It's possible.
But shall we get back on topic?

Sure. 'Good Daemons' might exist, but I still doubt they could survive long against their malign brethren.

The Ecclesiarchy promotes self-sacrifice and humility for the sake of the Imperium. Unity against the forces that would move to destroy them. They promote cleanliness and hygiene in worlds where such things are almost unheard of, and try to prevent the Imperium from civil war. They unify the Imperium, bringing a bewildering variety of people together under a common belief system.

Their chamber militant operates hospitals renowned throughout the Imperium as the best of the best in quality of care, they defend the weak and helpless from the predations of the dark powers and xenos, and attempt to keep bickering nobles from open war against eachother. They study language, trying to keep the Imperium unified and help ensure that the widely disparate worlds and cultures can work together for the good of the Imperium.

There is a lot of criticism to be leveled at the Ecclesiarchy-- this is 40k after all, and nothing is ever perfectly good. But neither are most things ever perfectly evil, either.


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Tadashi wrote:Monarchia was reduced to ashes, every last one of its inhabitants slaughtered to make an example that the worship of the Emperor would not be tolerated.

Because he wanted to discourage the man from open worship of 'Chaos. Not everything the Emperor did really made sense, because Games Workshop had a story to tell and they couldn't let logic and sanity get in the way of it.

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor couldn't really intervene as the Ecclesiarchy grew in power

Sure he could.

Tadashi wrote:Sorry, but Space Marines disdain the Ecclesiarchy.

And why should I give a damn? Space Marines are mostly irrelevant in the post-Horus Heresy era. Only one of the loyalists was actually alive back then anyway, and he's not talking. Marines spout a bunch of nonsense but in the end, they aren't even human anyway, so there's no reason to listen to them when talking about the fate of humanity.

Tadashi wrote:And regarding the Acts of Faith, if they're so certain its not connected to the Warp

Games Workshop specifically says that they are not. Consistently, every single time.

Melissia wrote:The Ecclesiarchy promotes self-sacrifice and humility for the sake of the Imperium. Unity against the forces that would move to destroy them. They promote cleanliness and hygiene in worlds where such things are almost unheard of, and try to prevent the Imperium from civil war. They unify the Imperium, bringing a bewildering variety of people together under a common belief system.

So did the Imperial Truth, which featured reason and technological certainty. With proper guidance, which I'm sure Guilliman or another of the loyalists could have provided if they hadn't been so eager to give power to the prima donna bureaucrats of the Administratum, the Imperial Truth could have done everything the Ecclesiarchy does. And at the same time, ensured a real future for the Imperium.

Their chamber militant operates hospitals renowned throughout the Imperium as the best of the best in quality of care, they defend the weak and helpless from the predations of the dark powers and xenos, and attempt to keep bickering nobles from open war against eachother. They study language, trying to keep the Imperium unified and help ensure that the widely disparate worlds and cultures can work together for the good of the Imperium.

Charitable organizations would have appeared sooner or later to fill in the Hospitallers' role...Iterators and Remembrancers would do the job of the Dialogous and the Famulous.

The Ecclesiarchy promotes self-sacrifice and working together for the good of the Imperium. There is a lot of criticism to be leveled at the Ecclesiarchy-- this is 40k after all, and nothing is ever perfectly good. But neither are most things ever perfectly evil, either.

So would have the Imperial Truth as enforced by the Legio Astartes, Imperial Iterator Corps, and Order of Remembrancers.

Melissia wrote:... they aren't even human anyway, so there's no reason to listen to them when talking about the fate of humanity.

They are the Emperor's ultimate creations...that should be answer enough.

Tadashi wrote:They are the Emperor's ultimate creations...that should be answer enough.

They are nothing more than self-glorifying mutants, debased inhuman things that are many generations removed from anything the Emperor created. They are not loyal to the Imperium, like the Ecclesiarchy, but instead only care about their own base self-interest.

Which is why the Imperium could not be trusted in the hands of the Astartes, and all your hopeless rantings about how the Astartes could make everything better is just a load of nonsensical marinewankery. Marines are just as flawed as the Ecclesiarchy, probably even more so; their arrogance matches Vandires at times. They are too inhuman, too disconnected from humanity to ever be competent in ruling.

Melissia wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They are the Emperor's ultimate creations...that should be answer enough.

They are nothing more than self-glorifying mutants, debased inhuman things that are many generations removed from anything the Emperor created. They are not loyal to the Imperium, like the Ecclesiarchy, but instead only care about their own base self-interest.

Which is why the Imperium could not be trusted in the hands of the Astartes, and all your hopeless rantings about how the Astartes could make everything better is just a load of nonsensical marinewankery. Marines are just as flawed as the Ecclesiarchy, probably even more so; their arrogance matches Vandires at times. They are too inhuman, too disconnected from humanity to ever be competent in ruling.

The beauty of the Realm of Ultramar stands in stark contrast to the hellish conditions surrounding the grand cathedrals and convents of Ophelia VII.

Tadashi wrote:The beauty of the Realm of Ultramar

Beauty? Please, it's no better than any other segmentums, and in many ways worse, because of bad strategic and tactical decisions made by the Astartes.