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Stoffer wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Still bummed about Paladins no longer being characters

Boo hoo...

It's a valid complaint. Paladins may have had their way with unskilled players, but they were never the top dog of 40k, or even their own codex. The nerf they got was way too hard, and now they're absolute garbage.

The new rule has very little impact on Paladins, and my prediction is that you will see more of them in 6th, not less.

I don't know, that LOS rule was my solution to high STR templates and playing opponents who were actually smart enough to maneuver into a better shooting position. It's going to hurt a lot against some armies.

Edit: I just played a guard army with two demolisher cannons. He would have removed all my paladins somewhere around turn 3 if it wasn't for LOS.

How where the Demolisher Cannons not IDing your Paladins? How can you LoS! ID off onto another guy...?

Maybe he means line of sight and not look out sir.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Still bummed about Paladins no longer being characters

Boo hoo...

It's a valid complaint. Paladins may have had their way with unskilled players, but they were never the top dog of 40k, or even their own codex. The nerf they got was way too hard, and now they're absolute garbage.

The new rule has very little impact on Paladins, and my prediction is that you will see more of them in 6th, not less.

Do you even understand how Paladins work? What made them so good, and so survivable, was their ability to move wounds around to keep them plugging away at full strength. Without that, there is literally no reason to take them over the other options. If you need massed firepower, you can get three times as many psycannons in a list using purifier spam (A list that was always far more powerful than Paladinstar since the very beginning, and has remained utterly untouched). If you need massed 2+ armour, normal terminators will give you more bodies for your wounds.

No, Paladins are garbage now, and I would advise against taking them in any list when there are so many better options.

Crazyterran wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Still bummed about Paladins no longer being characters

Boo hoo...

It's a valid complaint. Paladins may have had their way with unskilled players, but they were never the top dog of 40k, or even their own codex. The nerf they got was way too hard, and now they're absolute garbage.

The new rule has very little impact on Paladins, and my prediction is that you will see more of them in 6th, not less.

I don't know, that LOS rule was my solution to high STR templates and playing opponents who were actually smart enough to maneuver into a better shooting position. It's going to hurt a lot against some armies.

Edit: I just played a guard army with two demolisher cannons. He would have removed all my paladins somewhere around turn 3 if it wasn't for LOS.

How where the Demolisher Cannons not IDing your Paladins? How can you LoS! ID off onto another guy...?

Template on Paladins. Use their look out sir to put the wounds on Draigo. Roll 3+ invulns.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Still bummed about Paladins no longer being characters

Boo hoo...

It's a valid complaint. Paladins may have had their way with unskilled players, but they were never the top dog of 40k, or even their own codex. The nerf they got was way too hard, and now they're absolute garbage.

The new rule has very little impact on Paladins, and my prediction is that you will see more of them in 6th, not less.

lol wut

No, Paladins are garbage now, and I would advise against taking them in any list when there are so many better options.

Ah, I love the interwebs. Who are you? Blackmoor I've known for a long time from the US GT circuit but I don't know your internet handle. Would I have met you in DC, or Chicago, New York or Vegas?

Thanks in advance.

Paladins garbage? Music to my ears.

Here's the thing guys. No other unit can do wound allocation. The only thing left is the Necron Royal Court, or other Death Stars made up of various IC's or whatever.

It's simple. GW is sending a simple little message: Wound Allocation Shenanigans Are Not Cool.

There, see? Easy to understand, simple, basic. Stop trying to abuse rules, spam, and do other gimmicky shenanigans and you'll probably have a much better time playing and learning an army that isn't an 'easy button'.

 pretre wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Termpates, Blasts, and Large Blasts can not hit fliers (a line weapon like a Death ray is none of these)

Except that it is effectively a template weapon, just a long thin template. It is clear from the faq answers that they have intended all of the things that I (not necessarily the rules) consider to be 'weird templates' to not hit flying targets.

I'm not going to go back and forth on pre-faq, since neither of us is going to budge. At least they faq'd it clearly now.

Does this mean I can target a model I can see with the Death Ray and drawn the line through other models and units I dont have LOS to and still kill them following the rules for the FAQd rule on using a blast weapon to wound models around the target you can't actually see?

Same question can be asked of weapons with the Torrent rule (hellhound tank, GK Dread Knight etc). Can I place the small part of the template on a model I can see, then turn it so it basically flames around a corner at models taking cover behind a building?

 Fafnir wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
The new rule has very little impact on Paladins, and my prediction is that you will see more of them in 6th, not less.

Do you even understand how Paladins work? What made them so good, and so survivable, was their ability to move wounds around to keep them plugging away at full strength. Without that, there is literally no reason to take them over the other options. If you need massed firepower, you can get three times as many psycannons in a list using purifier spam (A list that was always far more powerful than Paladinstar since the very beginning, and has remained utterly untouched). If you need massed 2+ armour, normal terminators will give you more bodies for your wounds.

No, Paladins are garbage now, and I would advise against taking them in any list when there are so many better options.

You do know you're talking to Blackmoor, right? Who made it to the final game of the Nova Open GT (8 games, winning his first 7) with a paladin-heavy list last year, and regularly finishes well in large tournaments with them?

He knows what he's talking about regarding paladins...

 RiTides wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
The new rule has very little impact on Paladins, and my prediction is that you will see more of them in 6th, not less.

Do you even understand how Paladins work? What made them so good, and so survivable, was their ability to move wounds around to keep them plugging away at full strength. Without that, there is literally no reason to take them over the other options. If you need massed firepower, you can get three times as many psycannons in a list using purifier spam (A list that was always far more powerful than Paladinstar since the very beginning, and has remained utterly untouched). If you need massed 2+ armour, normal terminators will give you more bodies for your wounds.

No, Paladins are garbage now, and I would advise against taking them in any list when there are so many better options.

You do know you're talking to Blackmoor, right? Who made it to the final game of the Nova Open GT (8 games, winning his first 7) with a paladin-heavy list last year, and regularly finishes well in large tournaments with them?

He knows what he's talking about regarding paladins...

Yeah, I'm a little curious as to what he means by it.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Big boost for Nids actually....So much information to process:

Q: The rulebook says that you halve your Attacks characteristic if
you perform a Smash attack. However, if a Monstrous Creature has
an uneven number of Attacks, (3 for example), but has charged that
turn, does it receive the bonus Attack for charging before or after
halving its Attacks? (p42)
A: You halve the model’s Attacks characteristic first, then
apply any additional modifiers. In the example above, the
model would halve its Attacks first (rounding up to 2), then
receive a bonus Attack for charging.

So many attacks on a Warpspeed Crushing claw tervigon...

Q: Flyers are entitled to choose whether or not to use the Skyfire
special rule at the start of each Shooting phase. Can Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures also do this? (p49)
A: Yes.

Woot! I cans shoot down flyers!

I hate to say it, but until blasts can hit flyers, its still pretty much useless.

Lets see, a harpy has ....stinger salvo 18" S5
or
A hive tyrant with S6 18".

Yes, its a bit better. But we lost any hope for using aegis guns (I was even building a nid one).

Combine that with the Broodlord BS thing....ouch.

drbored wrote:
Paladins garbage? Music to my ears.

Here's the thing guys. No other unit can do wound allocation. The only thing left is the Necron Royal Court, or other Death Stars made up of various IC's or whatever.

It's simple. GW is sending a simple little message: Wound Allocation Shenanigans Are Not Cool.

You can still do a limited amount of it by leading with a character, and having two or three models in contact with him. But yeah, it's largely shut down.

@davethepak

Harpies are never a consideration. And I think you might not quite understand what your talking about in regards to the tyrant. 9 hits=3 glances anything that's not a vendetta or storm raven. So 12 St6 shots will drop an AV11 or less flyer on average. Combined with being able to shoot onto the table 24" giving you an actual range of 42" as well and you're looking pretty good.

If you have decent resiliency on the table it migh even be best to keep them in reserve and to try and come in after your opponents flyers to drop them, giving you less chances of being shot out of the sky.

And the ruling on modifiers is pretty nice. Because unless I'm reading it wrong it's basically 2+1 (Charge) +D3 (Crushing Claws) at St10 poison with even more if you pull down warpspeed....

 Hazardx987 wrote:

Q: If a unit disembarks from a destroyed vehicle during the enemy
turn, can it Charge in the Assault phase of its own turn? (p80)
A: No, unless the vehicle in question was an Assault Vehicle.

CRAP!!!

For some reason I don't think a squad of CSM or Marines would just sit there and not charge the Monstrous Creature/Walker/Wych Squad/Boyz Mob/... that blew up their transport, do you?

this rule doesnt make any sense to me. Is having your transport blown up thus forcing you to disembark really any different the not having the transport blown up and deciding the disembark? Either way I should be able to assault on the next turn

 ironicsilence wrote:

 Hazardx987 wrote:

Q: If a unit disembarks from a destroyed vehicle during the enemy
turn, can it Charge in the Assault phase of its own turn? (p80)
A: No, unless the vehicle in question was an Assault Vehicle.

CRAP!!!

For some reason I don't think a squad of CSM or Marines would just sit there and not charge the Monstrous Creature/Walker/Wych Squad/Boyz Mob/... that blew up their transport, do you?

this rule doesnt make any sense to me. Is having your transport blown up thus forcing you to disembark really any different the not having the transport blown up and deciding the disembark? Either way I should be able to assault on the next turn

i agree, this makes no sense. at all.

That disembarking and assaulting answer makes no sense. They aren't disembarking the in the same turn that they wish to assault, so what's the big deal?

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
That disembarking and assaulting answer makes no sense. They aren't disembarking the in the same turn that they wish to assault, so what's the big deal?

The issue was in the 6th edition rulebook it states any time it states 'turn' it is referring to 'Player turn'. So, the only time the assault vehicle rule would come into play is if you managed to lose your vehicle during your (player) turn. The FAQ clarifies that the Assault rule carries over from your enemy's 'Player' turn into yours--granting the assault if destroyed.

This clarifies that yes, if your rhino is destroyed in your opponent's turn and your Berzerkers disembark--they have to take another round of shooting before they can assault. I think they should have made that rule apply only if you moved flat out.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@davethepak

Harpies are never a consideration. And I think you might not quite understand what your talking about in regards to the tyrant. 9 hits=3 glances anything that's not a vendetta or storm raven. So 12 St6 shots will drop an AV11 or less flyer on average. Combined with being able to shoot onto the table 24" giving you an actual range of 42" as well and you're looking pretty good.

If you have decent resiliency on the table it migh even be best to keep them in reserve and to try and come in after your opponents flyers to drop them, giving you less chances of being shot out of the sky.

Plus, unlike a Flyer, a FMC has 360-degree arc of fire, making it hard to out maneuver in later rounds.

Yup, pretty sweet.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
That disembarking and assaulting answer makes no sense. They aren't disembarking the in the same turn that they wish to assault, so what's the big deal?

The issue was in the 6th edition rulebook it states any time it states 'turn' it is referring to 'Player turn'. So, the only time the assault vehicle rule would come into play is if you managed to lose your vehicle during your (player) turn. The FAQ clarifies that the Assault rule carries over from your enemy's 'Player' turn into yours--granting the assault if destroyed.

This clarifies that yes, if your rhino is destroyed in your opponent's turn and your Berzerkers disembark--they have to take another round of shooting before they can assault. I think they should have made that rule apply only if you moved flat out.

I'd be fine with the rule if it had that only flat out part in it, without it I dont approve

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
That disembarking and assaulting answer makes no sense. They aren't disembarking the in the same turn that they wish to assault, so what's the big deal?

The issue was in the 6th edition rulebook it states any time it states 'turn' it is referring to 'Player turn'. So, the only time the assault vehicle rule would come into play is if you managed to lose your vehicle during your (player) turn. The FAQ clarifies that the Assault rule carries over from your enemy's 'Player' turn into yours--granting the assault if destroyed.

This clarifies that yes, if your rhino is destroyed in your opponent's turn and your Berzerkers disembark--they have to take another round of shooting before they can assault. I think they should have made that rule apply only if you moved flat out.

They might as well bring back entanglement then.

Stoffer wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
The new rule has very little impact on Paladins, and my prediction is that you will see more of them in 6th, not less.

Do you even understand how Paladins work? What made them so good, and so survivable, was their ability to move wounds around to keep them plugging away at full strength. Without that, there is literally no reason to take them over the other options. If you need massed firepower, you can get three times as many psycannons in a list using purifier spam (A list that was always far more powerful than Paladinstar since the very beginning, and has remained utterly untouched). If you need massed 2+ armour, normal terminators will give you more bodies for your wounds.

No, Paladins are garbage now, and I would advise against taking them in any list when there are so many better options.

You do know you're talking to Blackmoor, right? Who made it to the final game of the Nova Open GT (8 games, winning his first 7) with a paladin-heavy list last year, and regularly finishes well in large tournaments with them?

He knows what he's talking about regarding paladins...

Yeah, I'm a little curious as to what he means by it.

I will be glad to answer that.

In 6th edition durability is very important. When you have a Necon Air Force flying around you need out last them because you will not be able to shoot many of them down. I played against 2 Necron flyers at the Nova Invitational and my paladins were the only thing to survive. Same with all of the other torrent of fire armies.

I want to go on record as saying that 2 wound terminators are hard to kill.

Now on to wound allocation.
In 6th edition assault is dead and in my 5 games I was only assaulted once by a unit of Wraiths which the paladins have no trouble beating.
Now since it is a shooting game think of paladins as a durable psycannon platform. So let’s say we take 5 wounds from shooting (which is very, very hard to do) in the past if you were able to make your 4+ LOS roll you were able to hand them off so that a squad of 5 paladins had one wound each (FYI, which was really hard to do anyways without losing a paladin or two along the way). So now what happens? You lose 2 paladins and have one with 1 wound. So ask yourself how does this impact your squad?

#1. You are not as good in assault. Here is some news for you, you will still kill most units in assault assuming they want to, or can even get to you. Remember 5th edition when everyone had power weapons that could kill paladins? That was so last edition.

#2. Shooting is diminished. Oh no, I shoot 2 less storm bolters! The paladins are still getting shots from 2 psycannons that can move and shot to full effect. You have to do 8 wounds to a 5-man paladin squad before you reduce their meaningful firepower.

Also you can still manipulate wounds by rotating your models around. If you have a paladin with one wound just move him back in the squad.

And a couple of other notes:
To the person who said that purifiers are better than paladins has never played that match-up before. I have played against 2 purifier armies at tournaments in the last 3 weeks with my Draigowing and Paladins win every time. It is all about 2 wounds with a 2+ save and it does not matter if you can spread the wounds around or not. They just can't do any damage while the paladins psycannons are killing a lot of Purifiers.

As far as demolisher cannons, why are you getting shot with them? They have a 24” range so just stay 30” away. When then come close hit them with all of your psycannons with prescience and you should be able to take them out or at least stop them from shooting.

Some people can read and learn, others just have to learn the hard way.

Stoffer wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
The new rule has very little impact on Paladins, and my prediction is that you will see more of them in 6th, not less.

Do you even understand how Paladins work? What made them so good, and so survivable, was their ability to move wounds around to keep them plugging away at full strength. Without that, there is literally no reason to take them over the other options. If you need massed firepower, you can get three times as many psycannons in a list using purifier spam (A list that was always far more powerful than Paladinstar since the very beginning, and has remained utterly untouched). If you need massed 2+ armour, normal terminators will give you more bodies for your wounds.

No, Paladins are garbage now, and I would advise against taking them in any list when there are so many better options.

You do know you're talking to Blackmoor, right? Who made it to the final game of the Nova Open GT (8 games, winning his first 7) with a paladin-heavy list last year, and regularly finishes well in large tournaments with them?

He knows what he's talking about regarding paladins...

Yeah, I'm a little curious as to what he means by it.

Nob Bikers don't really fear ID wounds very often now that they're T5 base, but what can really wreck them is just a ton of regular wounds, as now that FNP has dropped to 5+, they really aren't all that resilient if the unit is taking a ton of wounds, so having to allocate wounds onto the closest model means that you'll be losing a lot more Nob Bikers now to regular wounds...and the bad part is that a Warboss leading the unit utilizing LoS is generally vulnerable to the same kinds of wounds that hurt the Nobs around him...so its not really a case of being able to take a ton of wounds on the Warboss.

Paladins, on the other hand, have that superior armor save, but their big weakness is the S8+ ID. However, Draigo leading the unit can still now be placed at the front and take any S8+ hits on himself, using his 3++ save and his 4 Wounds to soak up quite a few of those shots. Then he can just pass on the standard wounds onto the closest Paladin (and players will always keep the non-Psycannon guys near Draigo now).

So basically Paladins are still able to utilize the most beneficial part of the rule most of the time. Yeah, they can be outflanked now and have S8+ wounds hitting regular Paladins because they're closer, but really there aren't that many super-mobile S8 shooting threats to really put an overall dent in the plan.

 yakface wrote:

So it looks like they haven't covered the question regarding whether or not passengers placed from an exploding vehicle count as disembarking or not for the purposes of assaulting.

They really need to get that answered because RAW those models placed after an explosion CAN assault and it makes players NOT want to shoot at vehicles in certain cases because they know there's a chance if they explode the vehicle they'll free the squad up to be able to assault when it wouldn't be able to before.

Yeah, that's confusing as all hell. They actually removed the word "disembark" from the rule.

I gotta play it by RAW until they say otherwise. Explodes=can assault. Wrecked = cannot.

>.< dammit, that's the one thing I wanted ultimate clarification on. Meh.

Thanks blackmoor,
I'll try not to abandon my paladins yet. Will see how my tournament goes tomorrow.

 Brian P wrote:

 yakface wrote:

So it looks like they haven't covered the question regarding whether or not passengers placed from an exploding vehicle count as disembarking or not for the purposes of assaulting.

They really need to get that answered because RAW those models placed after an explosion CAN assault and it makes players NOT want to shoot at vehicles in certain cases because they know there's a chance if they explode the vehicle they'll free the squad up to be able to assault when it wouldn't be able to before.

Yeah, that's confusing as all hell. They actually removed the word "disembark" from the rule.

I gotta play it by RAW until they say otherwise. Explodes=can assault. Wrecked = cannot.

Well, they changed the summary to match the interior rules, that's not really the same as them 'removing' the word disembark from it.

The reason I don't think this is a clear nod from GW that explodes results are supposed to free models to assault is because it is exactly the same wording from the 5th edition rulebook, which has always been incredibly nebulous on several issues, none of which have changed in 6th edition.

We all agree that placing the models where the vehicle exploded doesn't use the rules for disembarking (such as being able to move 6", etc), but I still do think you have to make the leap of logic and say that the models still count as disembarking or else you run into several issues that have no resolution, namely:

If they don't count as disembarking then I can theoretically place them within 1" of enemy models. What happens if I place them in base contact with an enemy model? What about on top of friendly or enemy vehicles (in the case of a flyer transports that were 'over' other models)? What about models that can't fit where the vehicle was? Are these dead or what?

There are just all these questions that cannot be answered if you don't at least quantify that the models count as having disembarked.

And like I said you also get the non-sensical situation of not wanting to shoot at a vehicle in some cases because making it explode, which is supposed to be the most damaging result, can actually HELP the unit inside by allowing it to assault where it wouldn't be able to in any other circumstance.

Yeah Jon--I agree. Plus, I think intent is pretty clear--considering that a paragraph later it states "...the now disembarked troops". I know that linguistically "Disembark" and "now disembarked" could be considered different tenses (and meaning)--but as you pointed out, it just raises more questions.

Blackmoor wrote:
In 6th edition assault is dead

I beg to differ.

So for "Look out sir", it seems like you always have to allocate wounds out to models before you take any saves, is this correct?

Your unit has all the same saves and a character in the lead; you now have to LOS all wounds out before taking any saves at all?

This seems like it would significantly bog down the game.

Figured out it was to correct this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/472018.page

 Hulksmash wrote:
@davethepak

Harpies are never a consideration. And I think you might not quite understand what your talking about in regards to the tyrant. 9 hits=3 glances anything that's not a vendetta or storm raven. So 12 St6 shots will drop an AV11 or less flyer on average. Combined with being able to shoot onto the table 24" giving you an actual range of 42" as well and you're looking pretty good.

If you have decent resiliency on the table it migh even be best to keep them in reserve and to try and come in after your opponents flyers to drop them, giving you less chances of being shot out of the sky.

And the ruling on modifiers is pretty nice. Because unless I'm reading it wrong it's basically 2+1 (Charge) +D3 (Crushing Claws) at St10 poison with even more if you pull down warpspeed....

Oh, I agree with your details - they are spot on - and yes I know the math on the potential of the tryant in facing lower armor (i.e. not guard or storm ravens) absolutely.
While I welcome the skyfire option, that is a lot of points for what you get - perhaps once they release a harpy model they will get a boost...

I also like your tactics regarding possible reserve and leveraging their mobility (this helps with the very limited range- as does their 360 fire) - I read your nid tactics regularly from your blog. Of course, being shot out of the sky by lasguns can be annoying as is the nerf to beasts and terrain (my raveners are sad yet again).

I still play nids, and do respect that they take a bit more thought and are not as forgiving (as say, something with better range and options i.e. other top tier flyers) - but just because I find some satisfaction in playing armies that are more challenging (my main army is tau) it would nice if it were not always an uphill battle.