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 Mr.Omega wrote:


For a start, Pask gives Preferred Enemy to his entire squadron. If you're fielding any of the Russes that wound on 2's, that's effectively re-rolls to wound on those tanks, which no psyker can give you.

As Mavnas said, only if he's your warlord. His preferred enemy rule is due to the 'Old Grudges' trait, which is only usable if he's your warlord.

Firstly, Azrael requires you to ally space marines, and can only work on a single unit.

Secondly, the invul save does help, of course, but it's a matter of scale not of scope. It limits casualties, but it doesn't fix wound allocation rules, for example.

Well I guess the Hammerhand discussion is a big bunch of garbled gak haha, so we should probably leave that for another thread.

Honestly despite the general discussion of this thread being less geared toward tactics and more geared toward what units we perceive to be good and bad without play testing, the vibe I'm getting is that there are a ton of OPTIONS in this Codex which is awesome. Hopefully a few weeks of play testing will uncover more than one option for a competitive list.

 Ailaros wrote:

Atheos wrote:Has anyone figured out if some of these HQs are getting 2 warlord traits? I see Pask as automatically having the Old Grudges... does he also get to roll on the table?

No. He replaces the roll with a set one. Only creed can get two warlord traits.

Well then on that note, if I purchase two tank commanders and nominate one as Pask and the standard one as Warlord... does his given warlord trait become null?

 Atheos wrote:


Well then on that note, if I purchase two tank commanders and nominate one as Pask and the standard one as Warlord... does his given warlord trait become null?

Yes.

Seeing as how only your warlord can use a warlord trait. The other guy just gets to roll D3 per normal, and has a 1/3 chanced to get exactly what Pask does anyways, unless you're hoping for outflanking units or something.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Atheos wrote:


Well then on that note, if I purchase two tank commanders and nominate one as Pask and the standard one as Warlord... does his given warlord trait become null?

Yes.

Seeing as how only your warlord can use a warlord trait. The other guy just gets to roll D3 per normal, and has a 1/3 chanced to get exactly what Pask does anyways, unless you're hoping for outflanking units or something.

I tend to run hellhounds/banewolves, so I'd prefer the outflanking units quite honestly. It's why I was hoping Pask could have 2 traits lol.

Pask is still crazy good for what he does point wise and otherwise if you take a Leman Russ Squadron you should take him, the only reason you shouldn't is if you don't want really good tanks.

Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Hollismason wrote:
Pask is still crazy good for what he does point wise and otherwise if you take a Leman Russ Squadron you should take him, the only reason you shouldn't is if you don't want really good tanks.

Well, points could come into play too in all fairness. I still feel quantity is still a form of quality with the IG/AM.
I've never been big on too many upgrades, and try to keep from dumping too many points in one place.

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Totally agree! Even with a 4++ from Belial (which, frankly, means wasting points of Dark Angels units and is probably a bad idea), we're still talking about T3 models that don't do a ton of damage, especially against armor or high toughness units. I cannot imagine Tau or Eldar NOT blowing one of these "stars" off the table before they do anything of use. Having some obscene number of guardsmen and/or conscripts on the table sounds good, and making them fearless sounds VERY good, but pouring 500 points into one IG unit and expecting it to do the damage or have the impact that a Jet-star or Beast-star or O'Vesa-star have sounds ludicrous to me.

Sorry if its been asked/discussed. But how decent is the telepathy psyker in the command squad?

In all my years I have almost never used powers (used the battle squad a few times), but my current list has tones of them with the new codex. I have a telepathy guy who got invisibility (which looks awesome on paper) for my next game.

He was pretty cheap I thought, but the primaris power kinda sucks, any good or better off just using the primaris psykers (which are cool on paper too it seems)?

 Coyote81 wrote:
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the new and improved Commissar Lord Yarrick. 2 orders, commissar ability, 4++, T4, EW, IC with PE:Orks (which confers to his squad fyi. S6 powerfist and can get back up from death on a 3+, infinite times. Aura of discipline as well as having a fairly awesome Warlord trait that prevents morale checks within 12".

Seems too good to be true honestly.

Too silly to be true is more like it.

 tomjoad wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Totally agree! Even with a 4++ from Belial (which, frankly, means wasting points of Dark Angels units and is probably a bad idea), we're still talking about T3 models that don't do a ton of damage, especially against armor or high toughness units. I cannot imagine Tau or Eldar NOT blowing one of these "stars" off the table before they do anything of use. Having some obscene number of guardsmen and/or conscripts on the table sounds good, and making them fearless sounds VERY good, but pouring 500 points into one IG unit and expecting it to do the damage or have the impact that a Jet-star or Beast-star or O'Vesa-star have sounds ludicrous to me.

That's only because you're biased against the idea of S3 T3 Guardsmen. Forget that they're Guardsmen.

Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Totally agree! Even with a 4++ from Belial (which, frankly, means wasting points of Dark Angels units and is probably a bad idea), we're still talking about T3 models that don't do a ton of damage, especially against armor or high toughness units. I cannot imagine Tau or Eldar NOT blowing one of these "stars" off the table before they do anything of use. Having some obscene number of guardsmen and/or conscripts on the table sounds good, and making them fearless sounds VERY good, but pouring 500 points into one IG unit and expecting it to do the damage or have the impact that a Jet-star or Beast-star or O'Vesa-star have sounds ludicrous to me.

That's only because you're biased against the idea of S3 T3 Guardsmen. Forget that they're Guardsmen.

Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

But you can't forget that they're guardsmen. That's the problem. Too fragile.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

... but they're still just T3, WS3. Relying on a 4++ save to stay alive, which, even as a re-rollable isn't good odds.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Totally agree! Even with a 4++ from Belial (which, frankly, means wasting points of Dark Angels units and is probably a bad idea), we're still talking about T3 models that don't do a ton of damage, especially against armor or high toughness units. I cannot imagine Tau or Eldar NOT blowing one of these "stars" off the table before they do anything of use. Having some obscene number of guardsmen and/or conscripts on the table sounds good, and making them fearless sounds VERY good, but pouring 500 points into one IG unit and expecting it to do the damage or have the impact that a Jet-star or Beast-star or O'Vesa-star have sounds ludicrous to me.

That's only because you're biased against the idea of S3 T3 Guardsmen. Forget that they're Guardsmen.

Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

There has to be a tipping point where their immobility (helped slightly by orders) mixed with their lack of firepower makes the point cost of all those buffs pointless, and better spent on firepower elsewhere. They are more than regular guardsmen for sure but seriously, dumping 1/3 of a guard army into something that can't shoot worth a might be a bad idea.

Its also just so gimmicky.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

... but they're still just T3, WS3. Relying on a 4++ save to stay alive, which, even as a re-rollable isn't good odds.

except there are 100 of them.....

would you buy a t3 character with 50 wounds and EW? yes you would, and you would never scoff at his durability...

t3 x 50 @ 5pts or 3 pts for conscripts is hugely durable...

you guys keep saying 50-100 guard will be wiped out in two turns, yet even WS spam, 6 WS's rolling 6 cover ignoring wounds per turn (they wont, but lets pretend they roll significantly ABOVE average for # of shots, auto hit, and auto wound),

even that mythical 6 WS with perfect rolls will not wipe out 100 guard before they charge with 20+IC's left....

so pray, do tell me, what mythical army gets more anti infantry then WS spam? because if WS spam isnt killing all of them, nothing else is.

you are also ignoring that they need to dedicate their entire army to shooting 700 pts worth blob+Ic's... and they are not shooting your artillary/HW's/tanks.

I think a good approach to foot guard is to try and thread that (rather large) needle between 100% chaff and deathstar. Guardsmen die quickly, but are cheap, so you have to figure how how to get a lot of them and add the right amount of support to get your buffs but not get diminishing returns or put all your eggs in once basket.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

... but they're still just T3, WS3. Relying on a 4++ save to stay alive, which, even as a re-rollable isn't good odds.

It's saving your meager 5 point dude 50% of the time. If it's rerollable it's saving him 75% of the time. What do you consider "good odds?"

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

None of which matters if they don't survive long enough to use them.

This all looks like the same problem with wyverns. Look, they're twin-linked! And they have shred, and barrage, and ignores cover, and can be made to split-fire, and has lots of shots, and, and, and...

... and they're still an AV12 open-topped vehicle doing crummy damage with S4 Ap6.

The absolute top line of what they can do isn't a good way to judge squads. It's better to be more realistic.

UlrikDecado wrote:Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Personally, I'm not trying to make a deathstar (and am slightly hostile to the idea as well).

What I want from foot guard is for them to play like foot guard. I want them to not be stuck cowering behind an aegis, but to be able to run forward and, despite horrible casualties, be able to get stuck in and grind stuff down through attrition.

The problem is that I'm just not seeing how the new codex fixed this. They still have durability problems just getting somewhere, much less surviving an attrition fight, much less doing enough damage to win said fight. I really want this to be true, and badly, but I'm not going to get suckered into an illusion of past glory (which is why I'm arguing so hard against it). I don't think that having a single deathstar blob is seriously better now than it was before this codex came out, and it's sort of against the point of what I'm trying to do. I want to make a foot guard army that does well (well enough, rather), not to make a single deathstar while a bunch of dudes and russes hide behind an aegis and shout "zap" a bunch.

 easysauce wrote:


Logical things...

Precisely.

 easysauce wrote:
so pray, do tell me, what mythical army gets more anti infantry then WS spam? because if WS spam isnt killing all of them, nothing else is.

Imperial Guard, I think.

 Ailaros wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

None of which matters if they don't survive long enough to use them.

This all looks like the same problem with wyverns. Look, they're twin-linked! And they have shred, and barrage, and ignores cover, and can be made to split-fire, and has lots of shots, and, and, and...

... and they're still an AV12 open-topped vehicle doing crummy damage with S4 Ap6.

The absolute top line of what they can do isn't a good way to judge squads. It's better to be more realistic.

UlrikDecado wrote:Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Personally, I'm not trying to make a deathstar (and am slightly hostile to the idea as well).

What I want from foot guard is for them to play like foot guard. I want them to not be stuck cowering behind an aegis, but to be able to run forward and, despite horrible casualties, be able to get stuck in and grind stuff down through attrition.

The problem is that I'm just not seeing how the new codex fixed this. They still have durability problems just getting somewhere, much less surviving an attrition fight, much less doing enough damage to win said fight. I really want this to be true, and badly, but I'm not going to get suckered into an illusion of past glory (which is why I'm arguing so hard against it). I don't think that having a single deathstar blob is seriously better now than it was before this codex came out, and it's sort of against the point of what I'm trying to do. I want to make a foot guard army that does well (well enough, rather), not to make a single deathstar while a bunch of dudes and russes hide behind an aegis and shout "zap" a bunch.

Ailaros, let's be honest here...you got roughed up playing foot guard when the game transitioned from 5th to 6th edition, and you're experiencing proactive interference to the idea that a new codex could actually open up new options.

Did you ever actually try making your Guardsmen more resilient? Not as far as I could tell from your batreps. This is merely a rehashing of your attitude toward the Vendetta: it's "cheesy" so you're hostile to it, yet the way you argue against it is to say that it sucks. Very disingenuous IMO.

You're saying that you want to play foot IG as foot IG: "I want them to not be stuck cowering behind an aegis, but to be able to run forward and, despite horrible casualties, be able to get stuck in and grind stuff down through attrition." That's your first problem. Guys with a 4++ and 4++ rerollable in H2H aren't "fragile" any more than Space Marines are fragile, with their non-invulnerable 3+ in an environment where everything is AP3 or better.

In case you haven't noticed, this isn't a "sit behind the Aegis" kind of idea, and the Guardstar actually prefers to be in H2H where it can reroll to hit, to wound, with a gak ton of S5 attacks against -1 T enemies. It's aggressive as hell, and it's not really that expensive. It's also got great situational flexibility. Enemy fielding missile 'sides or Serpent Spam? Put the Russes in front of the infantry. Enemy fielding lots of melta guns? Guardsmen go up front.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Why is everyone trying to build deathstar? Beside the fact most *-stars are boring as hell, trying to make it from guard seems really unreasonable to me. Maybe some tricks with Pask, but so far new IG benefits heavily from rather many effective units and ability to soak up damage with a lot of bodies meanwhile surviving ones kicks and bites thanks to amazing orders.

IMO is more effective to go totally different way. Have more options, use fakt that even mere footsloggers can snipe important models from unit, solid firepower across the table and abilty to improvise with wide scale of orders and gakton of troops.

Totally agree! Even with a 4++ from Belial (which, frankly, means wasting points of Dark Angels units and is probably a bad idea), we're still talking about T3 models that don't do a ton of damage, especially against armor or high toughness units. I cannot imagine Tau or Eldar NOT blowing one of these "stars" off the table before they do anything of use. Having some obscene number of guardsmen and/or conscripts on the table sounds good, and making them fearless sounds VERY good, but pouring 500 points into one IG unit and expecting it to do the damage or have the impact that a Jet-star or Beast-star or O'Vesa-star have sounds ludicrous to me.

That's only because you're biased against the idea of S3 T3 Guardsmen. Forget that they're Guardsmen.

Instead, imagine that they're a unit with a 4++, S5, 2A each on the charge, fearless, rerolling failed invulns, failed to-hit rolls, and failed to-wound rolls, against targets that are -1 Toughness.

The power of the IG Deathstar has to do with throwing a red carpet of Special Characters in there and buffing them far beyond the power of regular Guardsmen...

But you can't forget that they're guardsmen. That's the problem. Too fragile.

If you find guardsmen too fragile, you need to find another army to play. You aren't playing the super-humans in plot armor, or insane xenos.The IG are the loads of grunts and scrubs, designed to die in droves. There is a reason that it costs 130-140 points for TEN space marines, but 130 points is 20 guardsmen + a PCS, or 150 points for 30 guardsmen/50 conscripts. Those 10 space marines can kill at most 10 guardsmen at 24", or 20 within 12". 20 Guardsmen can put out 20 shots at 24"/40 shots with FRFSRF. Guards entire design philosophy is to be less effective per model, just have many more models to make up for it.

The idea of guard deathstars is that they won't exist in a vacuum. Any deathstar should be accompanied by conscript hordes and standard MSU's to claim objectives, then take 1 or 2 Russes/Deathstrike Missiles in your backline to absorb some of their shooting as the proverbial distraction carnifexes. Basically, you should be along the strategic philosophy of having more bodies than they have bullets, or time in which to shoot them all.

I wouldn't claim it to be an a perfect idea, but certain xenos armies would have a harder time of dealing with it than say, IG themselves. The way I'm looking at the codex, I'm seeing more counters to what IG can do in their very own Codex. A swarmy footguard list would be reamed by a pask/punisher squad accompanied by deathstrike missiles. Said pask/punisher list would be destroyed by a list heavy on vanquishers. And so forth.

Biophysical wrote:
I think a good approach to foot guard is to try and thread that (rather large) needle between 100% chaff and deathstar. Guardsmen die quickly, but are cheap, so you have to figure how how to get a lot of them and add the right amount of support to get your buffs but not get diminishing returns or put all your eggs in once basket.

Spot on^^, if all you want is an annoying objective holder just toss a Primaris Psyker and a Priest or two in a squad of 50 conscripts for a grand total of ~250 points and at a bare minimum they have twin-linked lasgun shooting and won't get knocked off an objective because of a failed morale test. Spread them out a bit and even with a bunch of large blasts it'll take your opponent a while to kill ALL of them. And seriously, who wants to waste a bunch of shooting on conscripts when there is so much else that is shooting them to pieces? If your opponent wants to focus fire them, that means something else far shootier is living an extra turn or two.

If you're going to buff the crap out of a squad you might as well make it something that can shoot, like say 40-50 standard guardsmen (you have to take 20 of them to get Conscripts anyway) with Lascannons and Plasma Guns that will threaten anything on the table at both range and in CC. Conscripts are just not versatile/shooty enough to warrant 300+ points of special characters to buff them.

yeah, thats my favorite thing about the two blobs + the various IC's as a cornerstone of the IG army.

if I dont need to send 100 guys into the enemies deployment zone, I can move around the IC's as required, and since one of my blobs is regular GI's, I can split them up as needed.

same with the pyskers, they can stay back and twin link all the artillary/HWS/tanks/ect or they can move forward to engage MC's or things that need force weaponing.

green tide, or guard blast/template spam are very hard counters to this kind of thing, but again, play your army right, split the combined squad up and spread out against other guard while you advance, or simply shoot the orks while they close and counter charge.

this build has a lot more tactical flexability then you are giving it credit for... and its laughable to hear it called "harmless" against vehicles with everyone in the blob being str 4, and having 5 meltabombs, all with rerolls to hit at WORST, at best rerolls to hit, pen, with armbane for 2d6, and half of your pens blowing the famn thing up, it become a very effective unit against pretty much anything.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Ailaros, let's be honest here...you got roughed up playing foot guard when the game transitioned from 5th to 6th edition

"Poor Ailaros got his little feelings hurt" is irrelevant. It also won't make a single blob "deathstar" survive long enough to be useful. I don't need to have subjective experience to see how plainly the new codex didn't change the core rules, and the core problems.

Nor am I going to be convinced by arguments that are little more than "it will just work out somehow" and "it's totally good enough", while ignoring all of the underlying detail. Force of will alone won't make a blobstar work.

Biophysical wrote:I think a good approach to foot guard is to try and thread that (rather large) needle between 100% chaff and deathstar. Guardsmen die quickly, but are cheap, so you have to figure how how to get a lot of them and add the right amount of support to get your buffs but not get diminishing returns or put all your eggs in once basket.

Okay, so how?

Honestly, if it weren't such a pain to move 200 guys, I think you'd be better off moderately buffing multiple guardsmen blobs.

A SM CM is more expensive than a conscript blob. Adding 25 pt priests and 78 point inquisitors with grenades and Hammerhand aren't too expensive.

Heck, priest + inquisitor + 50 conscripts is just over 250 pts. Enemy manages to kill them in a couple turns? So what... Send in the next wave (At 250 points you can do that without the special rule).

What's the cheapest IC that can let them flank? Moving 4 blobs all from your deployment zone will get crowded fast.

 kir44n wrote:
If you find guardsmen too fragile, you need to find another army to play. ........

I know what I'm playing, Thanks!!!
I just use their fragility in a different way. More like accept it and work around it as best as possible.
Not saying you can't go hog wild, just don't tell me to find another army if I don't want to go down the same path.