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 agnosto wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
If GKs get melta guns then can Tau get some super CC units?

Sure since we're talking homebrew rules here anyway. Make Kroot and Vespid actually useful.

Hell yeah! Lets take Kroot, give them a 2+ re-rollable save with 2+ FNP. Now lets give them EW, 5 attacks base, meltaguns which can shoot 4 times and can be shot in CC rather than fighting with their fists. They should be... 11 or 12 points each, maybe 13 what do you guys think? Pretty balanced right?

Whilst we're at it, lets allow Tau to shoot into combat, 'cuz you know... For the Greater Good and all

SGTPozy wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
If GKs get melta guns then can Tau get some super CC units?

Sure since we're talking homebrew rules here anyway. Make Kroot and Vespid actually useful.

Hell yeah! Lets take Kroot, give them a 2+ re-rollable save with 2+ FNP. Now lets give them EW, 5 attacks base, meltaguns which can shoot 4 times and can be shot in CC rather than fighting with their fists. They should be... 11 or 12 points each, maybe 13 what do you guys think? Pretty balanced right?

Whilst we're at it, lets allow Tau to shoot into combat, 'cuz you know... For the Greater Good and all

Posts like these are neither helpful or on topic. If you think something that someone has suggested is overpowered or broken say so in a more informative matter. This is a board for discussion of proposed rules not lets just make fun of suggestions and others. Rant over now back on topic.


Now I have been a "pure" gk player since the days of daemon hunters, and while the new codex has some interesting changes it does seem a bit of white wash here and uselessness there. For some changes I will list below.

Purgation Squads: I would second the idea of swapping out the night vision for a psychic power that would give them relentless or slow and purposeful for a turn. I would lean toward SaP since it would give an more trade off than relentless as you increase the number of shots you can do on the move but in return you remove over-watch.

Psilancers: first I would remove the force aspect. Its cute but doesn't really do much outside of t4 models. I would change them back to the wounds a demon on a 4+ regardless of toughness and maybe add psyker to the list as well.

Grandmaster: The extra points for an attack and Ml seem so silly when if you want Ml you just go librarian in the first place. I would think bringing back the grand stratagems and maybe increase the masters cost would be good a way of making the Grandmaster a unique HQ. I do not that some of the old strategies do not really work as everything scores now.

That is just my two cents for now.

SGTPozy wrote:
If GKs get melta guns then can Tau get some super CC units?

I catch your point. Melts should probably be limited to dedicated ranged armies, like Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

raverrn wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
If GKs get melta guns then can Tau get some super CC units?

I catch your point. Melts should probably be limited to dedicated ranged armies, like Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

That said Kroot that aren't balls in CC might be an interesting project, but they're a topic for another thread.

Just my pennies worth here

I really dont see the need for all this "balancing gk" that you are talking about, from personal experience they have gotten much more competitive since the last dex, im not sure if this is because of how cheap the dk is that loads can be taken or simply because i play CSM. The main arguments for imbalance I've read are the inner balance between the troopa choice but dont all dex's have that? CSM (Cultists are better point for point) tau (fire warriors) orks (boyz) im sure there are many more.

Though just because 1 unit is better than another shouldn't be a reason not to take them, especially in a non competitive enviroment. I think that you that dont like the rules should just accept them, like i did with my chaos, sure they dont win every game but it would become boring and no challenge.

Its just a game guys, sure your 'ward save' is gone, but the dex is still pretty good none the less


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow just read that back and im appalled at my sentence structure :p but you guys get the idea :p

 total0 wrote:

Though just because 1 unit is better than another shouldn't be a reason not to take them

Actually, that seems like a very good reason to not take the other unit.

soo GK players didn't care about "salvo" weapons, and as soon as they get "salvo" on a weapon that is a salvo weapon, suddenly they care???

suck it up lads, you all knew it was coming when the salvo rule was introduced, just be happy you kept the old rule as long as you did and it wasn't faq'd

What a constructive and insightful post!

Oh no wait it was condescending, valueless AND off topic. Well done!

HINT: we still don't give a gak about the salvo rule because the auto-take troop invalidates it. All its doing is making one unit useless and making the other pointless, THAT is what we care about.

then why the talk of changing the weapon from salvo? that smacks of having your cake and eating it too, everyone has the same salvo rule, so why not grey knights?

Because people still have weapon options that aren't salvo and beyond 24 inch?

That is really the only problem, The units that SHOULD have salvo (purgation squads) don't have a long enough range to use it effectively. The ones that shouldn't (Strike Squads) aren't allowed to assault after firing so it is no longer viable to have on that unit type and instead grab Incinerators. The only unit it synergizes well on is the Termies as the range is short enough that they are not a shooting deathstar, but long enough that even if they scatter from deep strike they can still shoot.

The psycannon is a very confused weapon.

Quickjager wrote:
Because people still have weapon options that aren't salvo and beyond 24 inch?

That is really the only problem, The units that SHOULD have salvo (purgation squads) don't have a long enough range to use it effectively. The ones that shouldn't (Strike Squads) aren't allowed to assault after firing so it is no longer viable to have on that unit type and instead grab Incinerators. The only unit it synergizes well on is the Termies as the range is short enough that they are not a shooting deathstar, but long enough that even if they scatter from deep strike they can still shoot.

The psycannon is a very confused weapon.

As has been mentioned before three guns between six units is a big part of the problem. Everyone else has broader options and thus doesn't suffer from having guns that are trying to be several different things and doing none of them well.

 Formosa wrote:
then why the talk of changing the weapon from salvo? that smacks of having your cake and eating it too, everyone has the same salvo rule, so why not grey knights?

Well, no, everyone doesn't have the same Slavo rule. Terminators, Bikes and Vehicles all use the strongest 'mode', hence making Salvo weapons much better on them than on infantry.

everyone does have the same rule, but certain units benefit more, that I can understand, the problem isn't with the rule itself, but the cost id say, I take it the psycannon costs the same amount on PA as it does on TA, that is silly, so why not just slightly reduce the cost.

 Formosa wrote:
everyone does have the same rule, but certain units benefit more, that I can understand, the problem isn't with the rule itself, but the cost id say, I take it the psycannon costs the same amount on PA as it does on TA, that is silly, so why not just slightly reduce the cost.

This seems like the case for a lot of units/items - like Guardsmen or SoB paying the same price as marines for power weapons, even though they're significantly worse in combat.

I think universal costing is a bad idea in general.

So, yes, I think terminators should pay more than Strike Squads for Psycannons. Though, as others have said, some more weapon options might help too.


One other thing - Salvo just seems like a dodgy rule. I don't know, it just seems like you're losing too much when moving. Worse still, it seems to be given almost exclusively to units that like to move. Aha, Dark Eldar are all about speed and movement... so lets punish them for moving. Grey Knight Interceptors can deep strike, and also get a shunt move... let's make their weapons worse if they have the audacity to do either.

The thing is, Salvo seems like the sort of rule you'd give to Heavy weapons to give them a bit of mobility, at a heavy cost. Not the sort of rule you'd give to more 'on the go' weapons. If you see what I mean.

yeah I can see what you mean, like a salvo lascannon or heavy bolter, it kinda makes sense with them.

 Formosa wrote:
yeah I can see what you mean, like a salvo lascannon or heavy bolter, it kinda makes sense with them.

Yeh, The Lascannon and Heavy Bolter both have enough range to be useful if halved. A base of 24" halved to 12" is pretty useless considering every enemy army will either out range it with specialized shooty units, or charge into close combat with specialized stabby units, so either way it will usually not get a chance to fire.

ForeverARookie wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
yeah I can see what you mean, like a salvo lascannon or heavy bolter, it kinda makes sense with them.

Yeh, The Lascannon and Heavy Bolter both have enough range to be useful if halved. A base of 24" halved to 12" is pretty useless considering every enemy army will either out range it with specialized shooty units, or charge into close combat with specialized stabby units, so either way it will usually not get a chance to fire.

12" is more than enough when you alpha strike, if you are further away than 12 inches from the enemy then you are doing it wrong

SGTPozy wrote:
12" is more than enough when you alpha strike, if you are further away than 12 inches from the enemy then you are doing it wrong

But that's only if you deep strike.

If you start on the table (which hardly seems unreasonable), then it'll take you a while to get within range.

Plus, even if you do deep strike, you're still halving your shots when you fire. To me, Salvo still just seems a bit too much of a double whammy.


Also, even if this works for GKs, I'm not sure it works for other Salvo weapons. Case in point, the DE Splinter Cannon. Even pre-salvo, it was a mediocre weapon - especially on infantry. It would be like marines paying 10pts to take a Hurricane Bolter in place of a heavy weapon. And, after being made salvo, it then got a 50% point increase as well. Except on Venoms... which are the one unit that ignores Salvo anyway. I just don't understand this.

Anyway, back to GKs, I think it gets worse when they have cheap Terminators who don't suffer the disadvantages of Salvo. Same with marines having bikers who ignore the disadvantages of Salvo on Grav Guns.

Medicore weapon? you kidding.

The fact its no longer "auto take on any unit in any strategy and any situation" does not mean its not still a very, very good gun.

Are you even reading your complaints? you say its worse for GK because they have cheap termies?
Its WORSE because you have something EVEN BETTER. 31 point termies, who are psykers. as troops.

Yes, GKSS are bad in comparison and suffer from salvo rules, but only because they are compared to what are the undeniable best troop in the entire game.

For "balancing" grey knights you don't need to change SS at all, just to nerf the termis.
But, this thread was never about balancing grey knights, it was about buffing them.

SGTPozy wrote:
12" is more than enough when you alpha strike, if you are further away than 12 inches from the enemy then you are doing it wrong

Are you serious? You would sacrifice a perfectly good Storm Bolter (24"), Force Sword, and pay extra points for a gun you can fire two shots out of, on one turn, and prevents you from charging, at 12", so your enemy is guaranteed to get the charge bonus when they attack you, after they slice your unit to pieces with their shooting phase?

Salvo makes otherwise good weapons into a pile of fecal matter. And the rule needs to be changed for everyone. It's just that the rule hits the Grey Knights hardest because their only viable heavy weapon was just made useless, whereas other factions have other options.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Medicore weapon? you kidding.

The fact its no longer "auto take on any unit in any strategy and any situation" does not mean its not still a very, very good gun.

Are you sure you actually read my post?

The only weapon I called "mediocre" was the DE Splinter Cannon.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Are you even reading your complaints? you say its worse for GK because they have cheap termies?
Its WORSE because you have something EVEN BETTER. 31 point termies, who are psykers. as troops.

Technically *I* don't have them, because I don't play GKs.

And, I was talking about the 'Salvo' rule and how it seems worse in armies with cheap Terminators or Bikers - because it creates such a big gulf between the models with relentless and those without.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Yes, GKSS are bad in comparison and suffer from salvo rules, but only because they are compared to what are the undeniable best troop in the entire game.

You think GK terminators are the best troops in the game? Any chance you could elaborate on that?

I might not necessarily disagree, but I'm curious as to what you think elevates them to that level.

 BoomWolf wrote:

For "balancing" grey knights you don't need to change SS at all, just to nerf the termis.

At the very least, it seems like they should pay more for Psycannons.

They are a 33 point troop termi, do I really need to list all the reasons why that's amazing?

They are 2+, 5++, deepstrike and relentless from their armor alone. yet unlike other termies, they got dual grenades.
They carry a strombolter and a "mere" NFS, but for the price its a steal.

LD is meaningless, they got ATSKNF.
MSU is no risk, you combat squad after seeing if the mission involves killpoints.
Aegis and BoP combined makes you rather hard to hit by hostile psykers

And when we go to options, they can get some awesome guns who's downside has 0 effect on them, and can get an objective secured lard raider DT if they want.

And if the enemy happens to be a daemon, sucks to be him because you reroll to-hit and to-wound of 1, and if you activated force than you reroll all to-wound and to-pen rolls in CC.


With these cheap termis GK are practically deathwing, except with more bodies and does not require specific HQ to unlock.

Being able to take a Land Raider is pointless, the current way the codex is structured you are forced into a alpha strike formation if you want to take pure Grey Knights. If you ally however some options do open up.

Besides you're just listing stuff, let me do that for Tau, (for some reason the only people complaining in this thread are Tau players?)

Firewarriors are the best troop in the game, so I need to list why they are amazing.

They are 4+ which is amazing because it is the equivalent of scout armor and most factions have to pay much more for. They got assault grenades for free and if they wanr defensive ones they just need to pay 2 points on one model for them.

They got str 5 guns that are 30 inch range so they can reach out and touch most factions before they get in range. If they don't feel like having that extra range they can switch to an assault weapon that fires twice and has pinning on it.

They can take a markerlight which is awesome because it synergizes with the entire army and can ignore cover saves on anything no matter the level of the save, it can also increase their BS to eliminate their weakness there.

In overwatch they can support their other units so you aren't looking at just 1 unit of snapshots but up to 4!

all this for 54 point, or a 110 if you max the unit out and take nades.

These guys are basically the IG Scions except better in everyway. AND they're in the troop slot that doesn't require a HQ to unlock!

 Quickjager wrote:
Being able to take a Land Raider is pointless, the current way the codex is structured you are forced into a alpha strike formation if you want to take pure Grey Knights. If you ally however some options do open up.

Besides you're just listing stuff, let me do that for Tau, (for some reason the only people complaining in this thread are Tau players?)

Firewarriors are the best troop in the game, so I need to list why they are amazing.

They are 4+ which is amazing because it is the equivalent of scout armor and most factions have to pay much more for. They got assault grenades for free and if they wanr defensive ones they just need to pay 2 points on one model for them.

They got str 5 guns that are 30 inch range so they can reach out and touch most factions before they get in range. If they don't feel like having that extra range they can switch to an assault weapon that fires twice and has pinning on it.

They can take a markerlight which is awesome because it synergizes with the entire army and can ignore cover saves on anything no matter the level of the save, it can also increase their BS to eliminate their weakness there.

In overwatch they can support their other units so you aren't looking at just 1 unit of snapshots but up to 4!

all this for 54 point, or a 110 if you max the unit out and take nades.

These guys are basically the IG Scions except better in everyway. AND they're in the troop slot that doesn't require a HQ to unlock!

Yeah, Fire Warriors are lovely but not as good as the Kroot! Those guys are super epic, I mean who needs armour these days with all the plasma spam?

And are better than deathwing in every way bar long rang :/

I hate Dreadknights.

SGTPozy wrote:
I hate Dreadknights.

t

Agreed, gk players are the first to complain about balance in the game. They complain as much as anyone about facing multiple riptides, wraith knights and wave serpants yet its fine for all their lists to feature at least 2/3? And call in a mono build?

Its a re-balancing across the entire range. Until eldar, crons and tau get their updates we will just have to wallow when it comes to competitive play. It had to happen, the power creep had to end.

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SGTPozy wrote:
I hate Dreadknights.

t

Agreed, gk players are the first to complain about balance in the game. They complain as much as anyone about facing multiple riptides, wraith knights and wave serpants yet its fine for all their lists to feature at least 2/3? And call in a mono build?