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2016/05/09 17:58:31
Subject: Re:Captain America: Civil War new trailer page 7
Cap killing Iron Man during that fight scene would've been a good twist and given his character something to really dwell on.
Why would this be good? Cap's the Paragon character, he's not going to murder people in cold blood. Especially when he feels partially responsible for the situation.
Spoiler:
Let's put it this way- Cap killing Iron Man would be worse than the Superman-neck-snapping-Zod from Man of Steel. In both cases you have the guy seen as the "Paragon" option in their settings killing a mostly helpless target. However, Zod was a villain, who was using his remaining efforts to threaten civilians. Iron Man was a (mostly) heroic character, and personal friend of the Captains, who was only trying to kill the guy who murdered his parents. Having Cap take the high road and simply disable Iron Mans suit was a much better ending. In a movie where it is up to the viewer to decide whose right, having him kill Iron Man would have badly tainted his side, since the audience still sees Iron Man as a hero. Plus, not only does it let Marvel keep two of their most popular characters, but it's one of the few times that a superhero movie comes close to resolving things non-violently. Because Cap didn't simply kill Iron man, there is a possibility of characters reconciling later.
Honestly, I think that we should applaud a superhero movie for having an ending where murder is not the solution (twice).
Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?
A: A Maniraptor
2016/05/09 18:26:46
Subject: Re:Captain America: Civil War new trailer page 7
I was actually secretly hoping Iron Man would kill or cripple Capt. America. That would be a good way for them t retire him and have someone else take up the shield.
But it would be awesome to Stark to now use it.
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+ Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
2016/05/09 18:57:04
Subject: Re:Captain America: Civil War new trailer page 7
Saw it over the weekend. I'd put it above the gakfest that was Avengers 2, but below Winter Soldier. It was entertaining enough, but just reminded me of all the flaws of the MCU films, and why at this point I should just wait for them on Blu-ray.
Spoiler:
I'll start with the easiest criticism -- the fact that no one noticed Zemo wasn't the guy the hired to interview Barnes is a plot hole of LUDICROUS proportions. I'd be willing to give the lack of backup generators in that same sequence a pass, but not that one. It's just dumb.
Stepping back into the bigger stuff, I'm not sure that the premise has the same import as it did in the comics (although the comics story was a mess). The point in the comics storyline was that superheroes (including the Avengers) operated as vigiliantes. But the MCU Avengers were from the beginning a *militarized* version of the comics team, organized and overseen by a multinational law enforcement/defense organization. They were operating on behalf of SHIELD in New York...they WEREN'T vigilantes acting however they wanted. I get that things have changed somewhat since Winter Soldier, but the accord is ultimately just about them going *back under* some oversight like they had in the recent past. TO ME, that doesn't feel like enough to get heroes to come to blows.
Which brings me to Tony Stark. I didn't feel like his actions after learning the details of his parents' demise were in remotely in character. He *knows* that Bucky was nothing more than a programmed puppet; a weapon aimed by someone else. I'm not expecting him to be happy about that or even want to associate with Cap or Bucky anymore. I'd expect some fireworks. But for him to fly into a *murderous rage* -- and not for a moment as he lost his cool, but for an extended sequence -- just didn't feel right, especially after it was clear he'd kill Cap if he got in his way another time. Yeah, he's dealing with a breakup...that doesn't drive good people to try and murder others. The revealing line "I don't care, he killed my mom" is an acknowledgement right in the script that it doesn't make any sense for the character.
But then at least Tony had actual character development in the movie. The supposed headliner of the film certainly didn't, not that he could after the filmmakers crammed in all they did. I get that RDJ is the star of the MCU and needs his screen time, but did they need *that much* advertising for two future films? Did they need to spend so much screen time setting up Wanda and Vision's relationship, even as they crammed in some passing Sharon Carter stuff that lacked any real chemistry or import? Zemo suffered just as much as Cap from the cast of thousands, and ended up another Marvel-style nothing, tin can villain for the heroes to knock over. Why not spend some of that time spend on other stuff making the villain actually interesting? Why not spend it on developing the character named in the title? My takeaway here is that either the studio doesn't think Cap is an interesting enough character to be the real subject of a film, or they're convinced that Chris Evans won't bring in box office without plenty of backup. As in nearly every other character they have. It was *far* more Avengers 2.5 than Winter Soldier was Avengers 1.5.
This film was handled much more deftly than Avengers 2, but it still had some of the same problems just because it followed the same formula. These films are fun at a very superficial level, but don't feel meaningful or memorable because they're just another episode in a continuing story that isn't going anywhere. As much as BvS shows WB to be in a hurry to build something, these films make it seem as though Marvel is content with endless amounts of worldbuilding and cross-pollenation without a payoff. And these movies aren't different enough in tone, direction, or visual style to draw me in that way.
Maybe I'll get interested again when they finally get around to battling Thanos in 2019.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/09 18:57:40
gorgon wrote: Saw it over the weekend. I'd put it above the gakfest that was Avengers 2, but below Winter Soldier. It was entertaining enough, but just reminded me of all the flaws of the MCU films, and why at this point I should just wait for them on Blu-ray.
Spoiler:
I'll start with the easiest criticism -- the fact that no one noticed Zemo wasn't the guy the hired to interview Barnes is a plot hole of LUDICROUS proportions. I'd be willing to give the lack of backup generators in that same sequence a pass, but not that one. It's just dumb.
Stepping back into the bigger stuff, I'm not sure that the premise has the same import as it did in the comics (although the comics story was a mess). The point in the comics storyline was that superheroes (including the Avengers) operated as vigiliantes. But the MCU Avengers were from the beginning a *militarized* version of the comics team, organized and overseen by a multinational law enforcement/defense organization. They were operating on behalf of SHIELD in New York...they WEREN'T vigilantes acting however they wanted. I get that things have changed somewhat since Winter Soldier, but the accord is ultimately just about them going *back under* some oversight like they had in the recent past. TO ME, that doesn't feel like enough to get heroes to come to blows.
Which brings me to Tony Stark. I didn't feel like his actions after learning the details of his parents' demise were in remotely in character. He *knows* that Bucky was nothing more than a programmed puppet; a weapon aimed by someone else. I'm not expecting him to be happy about that or even want to associate with Cap or Bucky anymore. I'd expect some fireworks. But for him to fly into a *murderous rage* -- and not for a moment as he lost his cool, but for an extended sequence -- just didn't feel right, especially after it was clear he'd kill Cap if he got in his way another time. Yeah, he's dealing with a breakup...that doesn't drive good people to try and murder others. The revealing line "I don't care, he killed my mom" is an acknowledgement right in the script that it doesn't make any sense for the character.
But then at least Tony had actual character development in the movie. The supposed headliner of the film certainly didn't, not that he could after the filmmakers crammed in all they did. I get that RDJ is the star of the MCU and needs his screen time, but did they need *that much* advertising for two future films? Did they need to spend so much screen time setting up Wanda and Vision's relationship, even as they crammed in some passing Sharon Carter stuff that lacked any real chemistry or import? Zemo suffered just as much as Cap from the cast of thousands, and ended up another Marvel-style nothing, tin can villain for the heroes to knock over. Why not spend some of that time spend on other stuff making the villain actually interesting? Why not spend it on developing the character named in the title? My takeaway here is that either the studio doesn't think Cap is an interesting enough character to be the real subject of a film, or they're convinced that Chris Evans won't bring in box office without plenty of backup. As in nearly every other character they have. It was *far* more Avengers 2.5 than Winter Soldier was Avengers 1.5.
This film was handled much more deftly than Avengers 2, but it still had some of the same problems just because it followed the same formula. These films are fun at a very superficial level, but don't feel meaningful or memorable because they're just another episode in a continuing story that isn't going anywhere. As much as BvS shows WB to be in a hurry to build something, these films make it seem as though Marvel is content with endless amounts of worldbuilding and cross-pollenation without a payoff. And these movies aren't different enough in tone, direction, or visual style to draw me in that way.
Maybe I'll get interested again when they finally get around to battling Thanos in 2019.
Well you nailed all of my problems with the film and said it better than I did. I agree wholeheartedly.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
2016/05/10 07:10:50
Subject: Re:Captain America: Civil War new trailer page 7
gorgon wrote: Saw it over the weekend. I'd put it above the gakfest that was Avengers 2, but below Winter Soldier. It was entertaining enough, but just reminded me of all the flaws of the MCU films, and why at this point I should just wait for them on Blu-ray.
Spoiler:
I'll start with the easiest criticism -- the fact that no one noticed Zemo wasn't the guy the hired to interview Barnes is a plot hole of LUDICROUS proportions. I'd be willing to give the lack of backup generators in that same sequence a pass, but not that one. It's just dumb.
Stepping back into the bigger stuff, I'm not sure that the premise has the same import as it did in the comics (although the comics story was a mess). The point in the comics storyline was that superheroes (including the Avengers) operated as vigiliantes. But the MCU Avengers were from the beginning a *militarized* version of the comics team, organized and overseen by a multinational law enforcement/defense organization. They were operating on behalf of SHIELD in New York...they WEREN'T vigilantes acting however they wanted. I get that things have changed somewhat since Winter Soldier, but the accord is ultimately just about them going *back under* some oversight like they had in the recent past. TO ME, that doesn't feel like enough to get heroes to come to blows.
Which brings me to Tony Stark. I didn't feel like his actions after learning the details of his parents' demise were in remotely in character. He *knows* that Bucky was nothing more than a programmed puppet; a weapon aimed by someone else. I'm not expecting him to be happy about that or even want to associate with Cap or Bucky anymore. I'd expect some fireworks. But for him to fly into a *murderous rage* -- and not for a moment as he lost his cool, but for an extended sequence -- just didn't feel right, especially after it was clear he'd kill Cap if he got in his way another time. Yeah, he's dealing with a breakup...that doesn't drive good people to try and murder others. The revealing line "I don't care, he killed my mom" is an acknowledgement right in the script that it doesn't make any sense for the character.
But then at least Tony had actual character development in the movie. The supposed headliner of the film certainly didn't, not that he could after the filmmakers crammed in all they did. I get that RDJ is the star of the MCU and needs his screen time, but did they need *that much* advertising for two future films? Did they need to spend so much screen time setting up Wanda and Vision's relationship, even as they crammed in some passing Sharon Carter stuff that lacked any real chemistry or import? Zemo suffered just as much as Cap from the cast of thousands, and ended up another Marvel-style nothing, tin can villain for the heroes to knock over. Why not spend some of that time spend on other stuff making the villain actually interesting? Why not spend it on developing the character named in the title? My takeaway here is that either the studio doesn't think Cap is an interesting enough character to be the real subject of a film, or they're convinced that Chris Evans won't bring in box office without plenty of backup. As in nearly every other character they have. It was *far* more Avengers 2.5 than Winter Soldier was Avengers 1.5.
This film was handled much more deftly than Avengers 2, but it still had some of the same problems just because it followed the same formula. These films are fun at a very superficial level, but don't feel meaningful or memorable because they're just another episode in a continuing story that isn't going anywhere. As much as BvS shows WB to be in a hurry to build something, these films make it seem as though Marvel is content with endless amounts of worldbuilding and cross-pollenation without a payoff. And these movies aren't different enough in tone, direction, or visual style to draw me in that way.
Maybe I'll get interested again when they finally get around to battling Thanos in 2019.
Well you nailed all of my problems with the film and said it better than I did. I agree wholeheartedly.
Well films are subjective.................that's why I disagree with pretty much everything here
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Given that Zemo had a disguise so he could pass off as the Winter Soldier one wonders if it might have been better if he'd had some more disguise skills/kit -- would've made the infiltration of the base later a bit more plausible maybe ?
One would suggest that a ranking officer in a Sokovian ... sp ? ........ "Deathsquad" might be on the radar, so to speak.
I was a little unsure about exactly what Zemo had discovered from the leaked files.
One assumes the footage of the murders -- which I have some other issues with, Stark senior -- of flying car, Cap's shield etc etc fame didn't have any gadgets in his car/on himself at all ? And the worlds' deadliest assassin picks the one spot on that road where everything is/can be filmed ? -- was hidden away, but it seemed to me that he got the genesis of the idea or at least part of the truth from the massive dump of Hydra files at the end of Winter Soldier.
... Stark and/or the Avengers -- who were spending their time hunting down Hydra -- didn't go through these files then ?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2016/05/10 13:51:47
Subject: Captain America: Civil War new trailer page 7
Y'know, I was fine with Black Panther. He had an arc that wove into the story, and in the end served as a nobler contrast to murderous Tony Stark. And he was somewhat set up by the vibranium/Wakandan stuff from A2. Spider-Man, on the other hand, was just crammed in and stole time and lines from characters that were core to the story. And the whole apartment scene -- *while much more of a general crowdpleaser* than the BvS dream sequence -- was just as much of a momentum-stalling interlude in the middle of the film.
Given that Zemo had a disguise so he could pass off as the Winter Soldier one wonders if it might have been better if he'd had some more disguise skills/kit -- would've made the infiltration of the base later a bit more plausible maybe ?
One would suggest that a ranking officer in a Sokovian ... sp ? ........ "Deathsquad" might be on the radar, so to speak.
I was a little unsure about exactly what Zemo had discovered from the leaked files.
One assumes the footage of the murders -- which I have some other issues with, Stark senior -- of flying car, Cap's shield etc etc fame didn't have any gadgets in his car/on himself at all ? And the worlds' deadliest assassin picks the one spot on that road where everything is/can be filmed ? -- was hidden away, but it seemed to me that he got the genesis of the idea or at least part of the truth from the massive dump of Hydra files at the end of Winter Soldier.
... Stark and/or the Avengers -- who were spending their time hunting down Hydra -- didn't go through these files then ?
Spoiler:
IIRC, he said that the Hydra files were encrypted. I guess we're supposed to believe a random military officer was not only capable of beating SHIELD encryption, but the only one capable. Then again, I suppose that portrays the MCU's intelligence community fairly consistently, considering how he strolled into a supposed ultra-secure facility with umpteen cameras on him and no one had a clue, including the facial recognition software.
Hmm its a film - that sort of intelligence lapse is petty common in any spy based movie or tv show...
on the specifics:
Spoiler:
I can't stand Spiderman as a character and so was not happy he was in it - but they managed to get him ok - it was a bit of light relief to counterpoint and enhance the darker elements - something that Fox also does and DCF need to learn from if they want to make better films. The apartment bit fitted with the universe, the time travel dream whatever in BvS was just that - "what they hell?".
"Random military officer" you mean the special ops guy who has devoted himself to revenge - you know like all the spys like Jack Bauer, Bourne, Bond etc who do the same. Guess only western intelligence operatives can be good huh?
Black Panther was good - he was the equivalent of Wonder Woman in BvS - a character you want to see more, know more about.
Yeah who would have thought someone would go into a murderous rage having just watched his parents being brutally murdered in front of him, following just after the break up of probably the only real relationship he has ever had, his PTSD, his guilt complex....... yeah why would he
Sadly people who laud the DC films for being "deep" don't tend to be interested in the "human" element so that's understandable.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Black Panther was good - he was the equivalent of Wonder Woman in BvS - a character you want to see more, know more about.
True to the last part, but he was better integrated into the story than Wonder Woman was in BvS. Her role in BvS was almost perfunctory. BP had his own arc, his character changed by the end, and his presence throughout the story made sense.
And at no point did he check his E-mail and watch some Youtube videos to awkwardly attempt to set up a cinematic universe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 14:12:03
Black Panther was good - he was the equivalent of Wonder Woman in BvS - a character you want to see more, know more about.
True to the last part, but he was better integrated into the story than Wonder Woman was in BvS. Her role in BvS was almost perfunctory. BP had his own arc, his character changed by the end, and his presence throughout the story made sense.
And at no point did he check his E-mail and watch some Youtube videos to awkwardly attempt to set up a cinematic universe.
Agreed - I thought his lack of interference in the final fight was well done - he had come for a specific reason and in the process found a better one.......
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 15:06:45
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Mr Morden wrote: "Random military officer" you mean the special ops guy who has devoted himself to revenge - you know like all the spys like Jack Bauer, Bourne, Bond etc who do the same. Guess only western intelligence operatives can be good huh?
He was a soldier. We're told he was capable of defeating that level of encryption because he's "patient." LOL. Similar to the the "I don't care, he killed my mom" line, this is the screenwriter saying that "this makes no sense and I can't be bothered to explain this better, but full speed ahead!"
Yeah who would have thought someone would go into a murderous rage having just watched his parents being brutally murdered in front of him, following just after the break up of probably the only real relationship he has ever had, his PTSD, his guilt complex....... yeah why would he
Sadly people who laud the DC films for being "deep" don't tend to be interested in the "human" element so that's understandable.
I addressed that an emotional reaction is expected, along with what might be a permanent rift with Steve. Anger, yelling, a light scuffle, storming off...fine. But murderous fury and cutting lasers don't make sense given that we know Tony isn't a killer at heart, and he knows Bucky isn't to blame. Separation from a girlfriend doesn't make up that gap between the character we see there and the character seen in other movies. He's ready to kill Steve too if "necessary" fer chrissakes, and Steve *is* his friend, nevermind the little spats and exchanges they've had at times. That sequence is very forced in order to get to the superhero throwdown.
"I don't care, he killed my mom." LOL. Maybe "I don't care" will become the new thing in screenwriting when you need a persona to act completely contrary to its established character.
Black Panther was good - he was the equivalent of Wonder Woman in BvS - a character you want to see more, know more about.
True to the last part, but he was better integrated into the story than Wonder Woman was in BvS. Her role in BvS was almost perfunctory. BP had his own arc, his character changed by the end, and his presence throughout the story made sense.
And at no point did he check his E-mail and watch some Youtube videos to awkwardly attempt to set up a cinematic universe.
I'm a defender of BvS, relatively speaking. But sure, WW was absolutely crammed into BvS to set up her film. I don't think it was handled that badly, but WB is well aware of the track record for female superheroes (look at how Supergirl is flirting with cancellation already) and undoubtedly wanted to start building interest ASAP.
I know WB isn't a fan of after-credit stuff, but moving the heroes files sequence there would have helped BvS, I think. They could have shown Bruce seeing the symbols come up onscreen during the film, cut away back to the story, and then shown Bruce in the Batcave post-credits watching and studying the videos. Having the dream sequence there would also put it in closer proximity to Luthor's ravings in the cell, perhaps drawing a better connection for the normals in the audience.
We are told the Zemo guy is the commander (colonel) of an elite squad - so special ops, noy just a grunt on the front line.
He is obsessed with revenge - not just patient, willing to do anything to get what he wants.
I suppose we could have had a montage of him dragging a concrete tyre around a bit to show his prep work but that would be a bit silly...........
The cold hard fact of seeing his mother strangled to death, his father's head pounded into mush - and then just to top that off - oh yeah the guy who claims to be a friend says "yeah I knew" but he is my mate so..... Add on all the other issues - physical injury, his failing relationship, guilt over various deaths- It pushed him over the edge and he had a psychotic break - understandable I think.....
I guess Batman should have just looked at the bigger picture too - Did Superman go out of his way to kill people, nope, but lets go kill him in case in his constant state of rage and grief over, oh yeah some guy who killed his parents in cold blood - guess that's why he brands people, kills people etc etc....
I liked Wonder Woman - she was great - such a counterpoint to Loopy Lex and his inane stupid capering that tried hard to ruin the BvS film and any serious elements within it.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Mr Morden wrote: We are told the Zemo guy is the commander (colonel) of an elite squad - so special ops, noy just a grunt on the front line.
Do you understand A) the work that special operators do and B) what military grade encryption is? There's a lot of road between A and B, and being 'patient' (what does that mean, taking some computer courses *very patiently* at a community college? and only for what, a year or two?) doesn't get you there.
If he had or even mentioned a team of people helping him, fine. (A rare missed opportunity for Marvel to do some worldbuilding, methinks.) But the writers were apparently fixated on making him a lone gunman, which I suppose makes him a easier tin can to knock over without pesky ramifications.
The cold hard fact of seeing his mother strangled to death, his father's head pounded into mush - and then just to top that off - oh yeah the guy who claims to be a friend says "yeah I knew" but he is my mate so..... Add on all the other issues - physical injury, his failing relationship, guilt over various deaths- It pushed him over the edge and he had a psychotic break - understandable I think.....
I guess Batman should have just looked at the bigger picture too - Did Superman go out of his way to kill people, nope, but lets go kill him in case in his constant state of rage and grief over, oh yeah some guy who killed his parents in cold blood - guess that's why he brands people, kills people etc etc....
It would have been far more believable and real for him to focus his anger on Steve -- although not "I'm going to cut you in half with a laser" anger -- and dismiss Bucky as being a meat puppet. His parents have also been dead for 25 years. It still doesn't get Tony Stark from being a good man to "I'm going to kill people who weren't really responsible so that I feel better." It just doesn't. What you're suggesting is that Tony was only ever some stress and turmoil way from becoming raging Murder Man, which doesn't jibe with what we've seen of the character to date. And we've seen plenty.
Whether or not you like the exceptionally dark Batman in BvS, that film is about the redemption of a beaten-down individual who starts that film already having turned into a criminal and cruel by Bruce's and Alfred's own words. He wasn't the good guy. But this thread isn't really about BvS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 17:41:14
Mr Morden wrote: We are told the Zemo guy is the commander (colonel) of an elite squad - so special ops, noy just a grunt on the front line.
Do you understand A) the work that special operators do and B) what military grade encryption is? There's a lot of road between A and B, and being 'patient' (what does that mean, taking some computer courses *very patiently* at a community college? and only for what, a year or two?) doesn't get you there.
If he had or even mentioned a team of people helping him, fine. (A rare missed opportunity for Marvel to do some worldbuilding, methinks.) But the writers were apparently fixated on making him a lone gunman, which I suppose makes him a easier tin can to knock over without pesky ramifications.
The cold hard fact of seeing his mother strangled to death, his father's head pounded into mush - and then just to top that off - oh yeah the guy who claims to be a friend says "yeah I knew" but he is my mate so..... Add on all the other issues - physical injury, his failing relationship, guilt over various deaths- It pushed him over the edge and he had a psychotic break - understandable I think.....
I guess Batman should have just looked at the bigger picture too - Did Superman go out of his way to kill people, nope, but lets go kill him in case in his constant state of rage and grief over, oh yeah some guy who killed his parents in cold blood - guess that's why he brands people, kills people etc etc....
It would have been far more believable and real for him to focus his anger on Steve -- although not "I'm going to cut you in half with a laser" anger -- and dismiss Bucky as being a meat puppet. His parents have also been dead for 25 years. It still doesn't get Tony Stark from being a good man to "I'm going to kill people who weren't really responsible so that I feel better." It just doesn't. What you're suggesting is that Tony was only ever some stress and turmoil way from becoming raging Murder Man, which doesn't jibe with what we've seen of the character to date. And we've seen plenty.
Whether or not you like the exceptionally dark Batman in BvS, that film is about the redemption of a beaten-down individual who starts that film already having turned into a criminal and cruel by Bruce's and Alfred's own words. He wasn't the good guy. But this thread isn't really about BvS.
So you are saying that no one ever had a psychotic break or similar from stress? That perfectly normal people don't sometimes just snap?
Lets not ignore the fact that the whole film had been setting up this - from the first scene with Tony trying to come to terms with his parents death, his growing guilt over the deaths he has caused by both not acting and acting. He is a different man to the one we saw in Iron Man.
So Tony's parents have been dead for 25 years - how long have Batman's. I thought Batman was great in BvS - he, Superman and Wonder Woman were ace - they were not the problem - it was the plot (or lack of) and Loopy Lex ruining anything that came close to thoughtful - the opposite of what happened in this film.
Tony wants to kill Bucky - a person who never expresses any remorse over what he has done to him, is content to keep running and killing - even though he knows he is just a walking killbot waiting for the trigger words. However he was stopped and had time to work through what had happened and its still not resolved- rather than just -"oh yeah our mothers have the same name - lets kiss and make up. "
When do they define what Colonel Zemo actually did apart from being part of an elite team? You do understand that Hollywood films are not examinations of how intelligence agencies actually work right? Do we know he was not skilled in computer hacking??
I suppose we could go the Nolan way and cop out by showing a five minute montage in a Tibetan ninja school - and go yeah - he is the best martial artist in the world - cos reasons.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Desubot wrote: Ah crap i didnt realize there was a second end credits scene. what did i miss?
Spoiler:
Right at the end of the credits, Peter Parker is back in his room, he tells Aunt May he got in a fight with 'Steve from Brooklyn' and as he's fiddling with his web-shooters, he triggers a hologram/display projector with the Spider-symbol on and some kind of interface, presumably this will lead to something in the premise for the solo film.
2016/05/10 18:59:51
Subject: Captain America: Civil War new trailer page 7
A scene with Peter and Aunt May. "Oh dearie, you got in a fight. Who was it. "Some guy called Steve." "Steve from two blocks away, I'll have a talk with his mother." "No, it's this guy, Steve from Brooklyn." "Did you get a few hits in at least?" "Yeah, a few." *Smiles and fades to black.
Spiderman will return
2016/05/10 19:19:15
Subject: Captain America: Civil War new trailer page 7
Mr Morden wrote: Lets not ignore the fact that the whole film had been setting up this - from the first scene with Tony trying to come to terms with his parents death, his growing guilt over the deaths he has caused by both not acting and acting. He is a different man to the one we saw in Iron Man.
Lots of people have dead parents, guilt, and failed relationships, yet don't turn murderous.
So in other words, yes, Tony Stark was secretly a giant time bomb just waiting to go off, in some kind of heel turn right out of pro wrestling. If you're good with that, then fine. I'm not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 19:34:15
Mr Morden wrote: Lets not ignore the fact that the whole film had been setting up this - from the first scene with Tony trying to come to terms with his parents death, his growing guilt over the deaths he has caused by both not acting and acting. He is a different man to the one we saw in Iron Man.
Lots of people have dead parents, guilt, and failed relationships, yet don't turn murderous.
So in other words, yes, Tony Stark was secretly a giant time bomb just waiting to go off, in some kind of heel turn right out of pro wrestling. If you're good with that, then fine. I'm not.
A normal person isn't accustomed to solving problems with violence like Tony is either though...
2016/05/10 20:50:49
Subject: Captain America: Civil War new trailer page 7
Compel wrote: I've gotta say, I never really did feel that Tony was specifically out to kill either Cap or Bucky.
Sure, he wanted to beat them both into submission then drag them by their heels to prison, but kill, nah.
I think so as well. well maybe he did want to kill buck.
as an example though.
Spoiler:
Tony could of easily blasted the cap off the cliff as he was getting up near the vent when he was full staggered and shield less. im also sure he could of just overloaded the suit and killed em all if he had gone full rage mode
Don't forget the mention to Ant Man he gave. "You shoulda saw his friend. He was huge."
Irishpeacockz-Blackjack needs a pay raise for being the welcomer to the crusade
Palleus-Write a school essay about Kroot! Pride. Prejudice. And Cannibalsim.
2016/05/10 22:27:44
Subject: Re:Captain America: Civil War new trailer page 7
Mr Morden wrote: Lets not ignore the fact that the whole film had been setting up this - from the first scene with Tony trying to come to terms with his parents death, his growing guilt over the deaths he has caused by both not acting and acting. He is a different man to the one we saw in Iron Man.
Lots of people have dead parents, guilt, and failed relationships, yet don't turn murderous.
So in other words, yes, Tony Stark was secretly a giant time bomb just waiting to go off, in some kind of heel turn right out of pro wrestling. If you're good with that, then fine. I'm not.
Your saying no one could do that?? That some people who suddnely have all these things happen don;t snap? Do you watch the news.........?
Its nothing to do with being a heel - He had a mad moment - it passed, he has to live with it - unlike say Bucky who appears not to care about anything he did.
Or are your characters so very black and white and inhuman......I prefer them with a litte more depth and humanity - good and bad.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2016/05/11 03:30:06
Subject: Captain America: Civil War - actual movie discussion starts page 10
Ahtman wrote: My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Remember, this was plan "B". Plan "A" involved beating the information out of a Russian guy. Plan "A' didn't work, so Zemo decided to try the plan that required a lot more luck and dead people, and then got lucky. Overall, I think that it was well enough done that the MST3K mantra can apply.
Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?
A: A Maniraptor
2016/05/11 07:58:58
Subject: Captain America: Civil War new trailer page 7
Alpharius wrote: Really enjoyed the film, but as previously noted, this feels more like AVENGERS 2.5 than CAPTAIN AMERICA 3.
I really disagree here. This was the sequel to Winter Soldier as much as it was to Age of Ultron. We got development of the new characters from AoU, but this continued the Cap/Bucky storyline for most of the film. The actual Civil War was a backdrop to this.
