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2016/05/11 08:08:46
Subject: Captain America: Civil War - actual movie discussion starts page 10
Ahtman wrote: My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Remember, this was plan "B". Plan "A" involved beating the information out of a Russian guy. Plan "A' didn't work, so Zemo decided to try the plan that required a lot more luck and dead people, and then got lucky. Overall, I think that it was well enough done that the MST3K mantra can apply.
Iron Man going rogue at the last minute and Zemo having the tape ready knowing that and also knowing that it would make him try and kill Cap and Bucky just felt forced. So, I don't agree that the MST3K mantra applies. There were other ways they could have approached it to get the same result, even if it was just a line about how with Tony being there maybe he would want to see something instead of the footage already being part of the plan and ready to go with him just waiting for unknown variable to arrive as perfectly predicted by the plot. This isn't coincidence, it is just bad plotting.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2016/05/11 08:53:23
Subject: Captain America: Civil War - actual movie discussion starts page 10
It relies heavily on coincidence... perhaps not as much as two people having mothers with the same first name... but still, there is a pretty big leap of logic that Zemo's plan requires to work.
Ahtman wrote: My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Remember, this was plan "B". Plan "A" involved beating the information out of a Russian guy. Plan "A' didn't work, so Zemo decided to try the plan that required a lot more luck and dead people, and then got lucky. Overall, I think that it was well enough done that the MST3K mantra can apply.
Iron Man going rogue at the last minute and Zemo having the tape ready knowing that and also knowing that it would make him try and kill Cap and Bucky just felt forced. So, I don't agree that the MST3K mantra applies. There were other ways they could have approached it to get the same result, even if it was just a line about how with Tony being there maybe he would want to see something instead of the footage already being part of the plan and ready to go with him just waiting for unknown variable to arrive as perfectly predicted by the plot. This isn't a coincidence, it is just bad plotting.
Well, one of your best buds has kept the identity of your parents' murderer secret for a good long while. I'd want to knock a few lumps off my friend and avenge my parents if they did that to me.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2016/05/11 14:14:45
Subject: Re:Captain America: Civil War - actual movie discussion starts page 10
Alpharius wrote: Really enjoyed the film, but as previously noted, this feels more like AVENGERS 2.5 than CAPTAIN AMERICA 3.
I really disagree here. This was the sequel to Winter Soldier as much as it was to Age of Ultron. We got development of the new characters from AoU, but this continued the Cap/Bucky storyline for most of the film. The actual Civil War was a backdrop to this.
You disagree that it felt more like AVENGERS 2.5 than CAPTAIN AMERICA 3 to me?
..Given exactly how easily elderly Fed-Ex drivers can get to the main doors they should ask for a refund either way !
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2016/05/11 15:12:43
Subject: Captain America: Civil War - actual movie discussion starts page 10
trexmeyer wrote: Meh, I agree Spidey and Black Panther were probably the best part of the film. I agree with your most of your points, I just wish comic book movies...could rise above their source material and really say something. It's sad when a deconstruction is the best piece in the genre.
Only if you don't actually like the source material. I don't watch comic book movies for a deep cerebral experience, I want a fun flashy action film with some pop philosophy that gives me some nostalgia feelies for the stuff I read as a kid, and the MCU delivers that in spades. Not everything has to be some arthouse black & white indie wankpiece that meditates on the nature of reality from the perspective of a grain of sand, and frankly if that's what you're looking for I have to ask when you're going to get the message that the MCU isn't for you? I mean jeebus, we're how many films in now and you're still evidently watching them and criticising them because they're not what you'd prefer them to be despite them never having pretended to be anything more than what they are.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2016/05/11 21:36:15
Subject: Captain America: Civil War - actual movie discussion starts page 10
Ahtman wrote: My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Remember, this was plan "B". Plan "A" involved beating the information out of a Russian guy. Plan "A' didn't work, so Zemo decided to try the plan that required a lot more luck and dead people, and then got lucky. Overall, I think that it was well enough done that the MST3K mantra can apply.
Iron Man going rogue at the last minute and Zemo having the tape ready knowing that and also knowing that it would make him try and kill Cap and Bucky just felt forced. So, I don't agree that the MST3K mantra applies. There were other ways they could have approached it to get the same result, even if it was just a line about how with Tony being there maybe he would want to see something instead of the footage already being part of the plan and ready to go with him just waiting for unknown variable to arrive as perfectly predicted by the plot. This isn't coincidence, it is just bad plotting.
Zemo is a really odd antagonist. On one hand he's more of an everyman than a comic book villain. He's a former special forces soldier, but not obviously special beyond that -- no traditional superpowers, no costume, no purple mask, no megalomania, no minions, no baron title, etc. The filmmakers seem to want to portray him as just a guy with grudge against the heroes due to a personal tragedy.
That's fine and actually kinda interesting. But then they portray this supposed lone gunman everyman with almost supernatural abilities as you describe. It doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're going for an everyman villain, then you'd think you'd show him using actual smarts and others to accomplish his goals -- little tricks, persuasions, manipulations, blackmails...planning for various contingencies...whatever. Not magically knowing what will happen and when, having competencies that he shouldn't, and sporting profound levels of plot armor.
But then we're probably back to needing time to work all that out onscreen, and the film doesn't have time to spare after cramming in all the "stuff."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/11 21:37:03
Ahtman wrote: My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Remember, this was plan "B". Plan "A" involved beating the information out of a Russian guy. Plan "A' didn't work, so Zemo decided to try the plan that required a lot more luck and dead people, and then got lucky. Overall, I think that it was well enough done that the MST3K mantra can apply.
Iron Man going rogue at the last minute and Zemo having the tape ready knowing that and also knowing that it would make him try and kill Cap and Bucky just felt forced. So, I don't agree that the MST3K mantra applies. There were other ways they could have approached it to get the same result, even if it was just a line about how with Tony being there maybe he would want to see something instead of the footage already being part of the plan and ready to go with him just waiting for unknown variable to arrive as perfectly predicted by the plot. This isn't coincidence, it is just bad plotting.
Zemo is a really odd antagonist. On one hand he's more of an everyman than a comic book villain. He's a former special forces soldier, but not obviously special beyond that -- no traditional superpowers, no costume, no purple mask, no megalomania, no minions, no baron title, etc. The filmmakers seem to want to portray him as just a guy with grudge against the heroes due to a personal tragedy.
That's fine and actually kinda interesting. But then they portray this supposed lone gunman everyman with almost supernatural abilities as you describe. It doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're going for an everyman villain, then you'd think you'd show him using actual smarts and others to accomplish his goals -- little tricks, persuasions, manipulations, blackmails...planning for various contingencies...whatever. Not magically knowing what will happen and when, having competencies that he shouldn't, and sporting profound levels of plot armor.
But then we're probably back to needing time to work all that out onscreen, and the film doesn't have time to spare after cramming in all the "stuff."
I took it that (as in previous Marvel and Fox and to some degree B vS) films - this is all about consequences of superhero's in the world and humanities reaction to them - its obviously much more developed in the Fox films with Mutants vs Humanity theme - but they certainly talk about how there are more and more people with powers arising.
I think it works really well as a "mere" special forces operator trying to avenge his family - how many times have we seen this for the other side?
re his almost supernatural abilities - well it is a conceit of filmmaking - look at the 24 series with layers and layers of plans by the bad guys.
Its nowhere near as unbelievable as the truly supernatural ability to predict every single thing that ever happened that the Joker showed in the Nolan Batman films - if you thought Zemo was bad - you must have been truly outraged by him - especially there is nothing to show how he does it - he just does.........
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
trexmeyer wrote: Meh, I agree Spidey and Black Panther were probably the best part of the film. I agree with your most of your points, I just wish comic book movies...could rise above their source material and really say something. It's sad when a deconstruction is the best piece in the genre.
Only if you don't actually like the source material. I don't watch comic book movies for a deep cerebral experience, I want a fun flashy action film with some pop philosophy that gives me some nostalgia feelies for the stuff I read as a kid, and the MCU delivers that in spades. Not everything has to be some arthouse black & white indie wankpiece that meditates on the nature of reality from the perspective of a grain of sand, and frankly if that's what you're looking for I have to ask when you're going to get the message that the MCU isn't for you? I mean jeebus, we're how many films in now and you're still evidently watching them and criticising them because they're not what you'd prefer them to be despite them never having pretended to be anything more than what they are.
The irony here being that Civil War did rise about its source material. The comics Civil War was a complete mess, turning Tony into a moustache-twirling villain who used mind-wiped super villains and a robo-Thor clone thingy to force Steve & Co. to register. Him and Mr. Fantastic even made an inter dimensional prison to hold people who were against them. Tony went so nutso-evil that eventually Mr. F said "Screw this, I'm out!" and left.
Comics Civil War failed because one side was clearly right and one side was clearly, overwhelming, cliché-ily wrong. Movies Civil War isn't so clear cut.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/05/12 09:00:23
The irony here being that Civil War did rise about its source material. The comics Civil War was a complete mess, turning Tony into a moustache-twirling villain who used mind-wiped super villains and a robo-Thor clone thingy to force Steve & Co. to register. Him and Mr. Fantastic even made an inter dimensional prison to hold people who were against them. Tony went so nutso-evil that eventually Mr. F said "Screw this, I'm out!" and left.
Comics Civil War failed because one side was clearly right and one side was clearly, overwhelming, cliché-ily wrong. Movies Civil War isn't so clear cut.
I'm glad that movie wasn't made...
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
2016/05/12 18:03:16
Subject: Re:Captain America: Civil War - actual movie discussion starts page 10
The irony here being that Civil War did rise about its source material. The comics Civil War was a complete mess, turning Tony into a moustache-twirling villain who used mind-wiped super villains and a robo-Thor clone thingy to force Steve & Co. to register. Him and Mr. Fantastic even made an inter dimensional prison to hold people who were against them. Tony went so nutso-evil that eventually Mr. F said "Screw this, I'm out!" and left.
Comics Civil War failed because one side was clearly right and one side was clearly, overwhelming, cliché-ily wrong. Movies Civil War isn't so clear cut.
I'm glad that movie wasn't made...
Me too!
MOVIE Civil War blows away COMICS Civil War - and it isn't even close!
Legion: Dark Angels 
