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At the highest levels of competitive most books have lots of dead choices and I can't remember when people were actually considering standard tac marines to be " Good " outside of 3rd edition Rhino Rush Tactics.

Closest that came was for the stretch of time in 5th Grey Hunters were considered to be amazing, which they were quite good.

At the end of the day I'd still like more choices as opposed to less and embrace style over uniformity of dull. Choices are only bad if the game designers are so abysmal as to make them all bad. Which isn't a fault of the tactical marine by its nature but more to show GW is just piss poor at figuring out what makes marines good aside from visuals and even that they find a way to foul up sometimes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/21 08:21:23


 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






AngryAngel80 wrote:
At the highest levels of competitive most books have lots of dead choices and I can't remember when people were actually considering standard tac marines to be " Good " outside of 3rd edition Rhino Rush Tactics.

Closest that came was for the stretch of time in 5th Grey Hunters were considered to be amazing, which they were quite good.

At the end of the day I'd still like more choices as opposed to less and embrace style over uniformity of dull. Choices are only bad if the game designers are so abysmal as to make them all bad. Which isn't a fault of the tactical marine by its nature but more to show GW is just piss poor at figuring out what makes marines good aside from visuals and even that they find a way to foul up sometimes.


We are not talking about a codex having a unit that just isn't very good. Not even getting into super competitive. Just in a very general sense. We are talking about too many units in too limited a design space for them to even have a chance to be good or even distinct. It's not a matter of this unit just isn't that great. There are just full on too many units. Why can't sanguinary Guard be Vanguard vets with special BA bits and a different paint scheme? Why are Deathwing Knights not just Terminators with a melee loadout? How come Thunderwolves are not just Bikers for spacewolves with a unique model?

There are entire books filled with how each chapter paints their armor different for different companies and units along with unique kits or upgrade sprus for various chapters. These things don't need a whole datasheet. And they are not distinct enough or fill a distinct enough role to warrant it.

And just to point out this as being fair. It's really dumb that thornback and screamer killer carnifexes are different datasheets instead of just options for the standard carnifex too. The fex doesn't need 4 variants. The standard and stone crusher is more than enough.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/21 08:41:40



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
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The New stuff doesn't make it bloated, its the old stuff that was here first. Excellent Hot Take.


Thank you.


Oh that's all you, I couldn't have pointed out you blame the old stuff for being there first if you hadn't said it.

Yup. And it took me more than 2 seconds to write my post. So my comment was still valid last I looked at what I was responding to.


Well as valid as can be when complaining you told someone to read something, and the quote was paraphrased but still the gist of your snark. Especially from someone who likes to complain about semantics.

I think basic 40k has ALOT of problems.

Which is of course why you're blaming the non-codex Marine books for it. This is almost as good as blaming the stuff that was already there for bloating the army lists.

I know that SM have like... 5 different units they want in melee with clearly superior choices and clearly inferior choices while none of them are performing particularly well


I know a lot of Armies have multiple units they want in melee that aren't performing particularly well because melee itself doesn't perform particularly well. If only someone had been making that point when mentioning the BRB is the source of the balance issues, not the codexes.

All these units are doing the same job.
No, they're not. Sanguinary Guard are Command Squad equivalents/remnants for Dante and/or Jump Captains/etc and provide a fairly hefty Jump/CCW role as well as a Jump Medic, and a Jump Ancient with Banner. This is an overlapping, but not identical job as the Vanguard Vets, or the Death Company, or even the assault squad. All of these units perform a similar role but at a different level with a different investment cost thus performing a different job, Again look at the Primaris and how much the Intercessors and Infiltrators don't perform the same job. Oh wait. That's sure a fly in your ointment. How does one claim these jump pack marines with different rules, gear, and costs perform the same job as that jump pack marines while saying these bolter 3+ Primaris Marine troops don't perform the same job as those 3+ bolter Primaris troops. Incidentally, I bring Vanguard and Assault Marines to different lists for different purposes.

Again, read. I didn't say I don't know enough about the core rules. I seem to have a better grasp on them then you.

I honestly don't know enough about the gunships to comment on them, which is why I didn't. I also don't care enough about them and CP to research them and find out what you are talking about.

It sure sounds like you did. For having a "better grasp" you didn't understand a pretty clear reference to the affects of the Loyal 32, Soup, and the rates at which 2000 points of horde armies, 2000 points of elite armies, and 2,000 points of fluffy and elite but not Battalion based Armies will generate CP's and capture objectives. Still. Again. Yet More. But at least you've got a better grasp on how...
I don't think that points/PL are a problem. I don't think the force org chart is a probem except that the ones used in 40k basically serve no purpose because they are not restricting in any capacity.
the Force Org Charts are "not restricting in any capacity" for the -Wing Armies, White Scar Biker Armies, Pure Knight (without their special rule) or Saim Hann Jetbike, and so on armies.


Take the words I wrote and answer those words. It should be easy.

I would have thought so too, but you had an incredibly amount of difficulty directly answering my simple questions.

As for the Blood Angel thing, it was a question, not a statement. And it was more than a little Reductio Ad Absurdum - as you blame the BA (And DA) codex for the balance issues in the BRB containing close combat rules.
I did not say that. I would ask you to quote me saying that but your quoting skills are currently in question.


You didn't?
It's special snowfalke units with a lack of actual "chapter tactics" coupled with needing to errata and update each book separately for every single change that gets made when they share so many units. The SM line is already bloated with units that have no clear purpose or who are competing with other units that do the intended job better. Tossing chapter specific units into the mix that just add to that mess is an issue. It's much easier to balance 5 distinct units then it is 15 indistinct, or worse 25 indistinct with these 2 only being available to these guys and these 3 only available to those guys etc etc...

It's a bad situation that keeps being made worse. Spreading it out into 4 books 3 of which are treated as their own armies is mad when they could just as easily be chapters.


I know a lot about whats in the books. I don't know the specific issues between every unit. I know that SM have like... 5 different units they want in melee with clearly superior choices and clearly inferior choices while none of them are performing particularly well. I know that Spacewolves then get extra units that also want to be in melee. And then Blood angles get extra units that want to be in melee. And then DA get extra units that want to be in melee. Tell me, how are DAs Deathwing Knights compare to regular melee terminators compared to assault marines compared to vanguard vets?

What are Crusader squads vs all those other units? How about the wolf riders for space wolves? Death Company? Sanguinary Guards?


I don't see a lot of pointing out the problem with close combat is in the BRB, I see a lot of blaming the codexes for having close combat units in them.


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Then you should practice your reading comprehension. The VOLUME of melee units with the same targets is the issue I am pointing at. Not the general effectiveness of melee. I chose melee units as an example. It is not the only example and the fact that core melee rules have problems too is besides the point.

Go back. Read. Try to understand. Come back when you can put 2 sentences together and understand the bigger point they make together.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
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 Lance845 wrote:
Then you should practice your reading comprehension. The VOLUME of melee units with the same targets is the issue I am pointing at. Not the general effectiveness of melee. I chose melee units as an example. It is not the only example and the fact that core melee rules have problems too is besides the point.

Go back. Read. Try to understand. Come back when you can put 2 sentences together and understand the bigger point they make together.


Says the guy who didn't understand the point of CP Generation, Force Org, and game balance.

I see your "better grasp" of the game is still holding strong.

You said wrote:]All these units are doing the same job.


I said wrote:No, they're not. Sanguinary Guard are Command Squad equivalents/remnants for Dante and/or Jump Captains/etc and provide a fairly hefty Jump/CCW role as well as a Jump Medic, and a Jump Ancient with Banner. This is an overlapping, but not identical job as the Vanguard Vets, or the Death Company, or even the assault squad. All of these units perform a similar role but at a different level with a different investment cost thus performing a different job, Again look at the Primaris and how much the Intercessors and Infiltrators don't perform the same job. Oh wait. That's sure a fly in your ointment. How does one claim these jump pack marines with different rules, gear, and costs perform the same job as that jump pack marines while saying these bolter 3+ Primaris Marine troops don't perform the same job as those 3+ bolter Primaris troops. Incidentally, I bring Vanguard and Assault Marines to different lists for different purposes.


You Doubled Down with wrote:The VOLUME of melee units with the same targets


They don't have the same targets. They don't have the same job. Vanguard Vets with their access to AP -2 etc power weapons have entirely different target lists - and niche in an Army List -than Assault Marines with their AP -0 chainswords and even different than a 15 model unit of Death Company or a small unit of Sanguinary Guard. And this is long before we get to the target lists - let alone other strategic and tactical uses - of Assault Terminators, Inceptors, Centurions, Aggressors, and Reivers.

As I already mentioned, but you didn't appear to read Sanguinary Guard are the Command Squad role, and will be supporting cast for Dante or a Jump Captain/etc Warlord. Vanguard Veterans will most frequently be used as a hammer on the anvil, Assault Marines are best used - in this edition- for back line harassment of glass cannons, or squishy rear guard like Guard HW Teams. Surely with your superior grasp of the rules you already understood that units performing similar functions to different quality levels for different investment costs meant they had different primary, secondary, and tertiary uses and did not perform the SAME job? But then, why would you keep trying to claim this after it's been pointed out to you?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/21 09:15:54


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Good. So why are sanguinary guard not a command squad with jump packs as a upgrade and unique models? Why are they their own unit?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/21 09:22:00



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





 Lance845 wrote:
Good. So why are sanguinary guard not a command squad with jump packs as a upgrade and unique models? Why are they their own unit?



For the same reason Dante isn't a generic chapter master with a jump pack upgrade? Fluff. Variety. For the same reason the Captain, Terminator Captain, Phobos Captain, Gravis Captain, etc. aren't Captain with Terminator/Cataphracti/Bike/Gravis/Phobos/Primaris/etc upgrades resulting in a four page datasheet of If/Then/Else statements bound to confuse people into accidental cheating let alone intentional. For the same reason Infiltrators aren't Intercessors with a backpack upgrade? I realize this sounded rhetorical, but I would like an answer -

Primaris are not the things making the SM line bloated. If anything they are cleaning it up. Again, they have distinct roles to fill and do not overlap each other or step on each others toes for getting a job done. The rest of the SM line can't say that. SM have been bloated for a long time before that.

How does one claim these jump pack marines with different rules, gear, and costs perform the same job as that jump pack marines while saying these bolter 3+ Primaris Marine troops don't perform the same job as those 3+ bolter Primaris troops.


For now, I shall content myself in your "superior grasp" of the game acknowledging they don't have the same job and you now plan to move the goal posts into homogenizing the very variety that makes these non codex chapters unique.

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I could see that it would be hard to make all choices of JP Infantry well balanced and equally viable in a BA list. Since if they arent priced perfectly one of the units will be better at another units intended role for a cheaper price.

But we arent at that place right now that any one of them is in the place they should be. They all have easy problems to fix first that shouldnt take GW years to fix.

Why is the Death Company the lowest LD space marine unit? I remember them as being more fearless than even usual marines with actually having the rule Fearless. Now you must pay for a character to babysit them so they dont run away in fear if one of their death crazed brothers die, cause thats what scares suicidal marines. Easy fix is to add 2-3 ld to them. I hope this is a typo and GW just dont want to admit they fethed up.

Why are there different rules for the Sanguinary Guard weapons? Best choice right now is the powerfist you only get 1 of in the box since the weapons you get more of are way overpriced. There should probably just be Encarmine Blades/Weapons as a single choice with a relic blade statline and price. Why split it up and then be unable to balance them at all in the first place. And their rule for rerolls close to warlord should probably be changed. They are Dantes guard unit and he already gives them full rerolls.

Vanguard vets are fine but should perhaps be a fast attack choice for Blood Angels or count as chosen by the player. Unlike normal marines BA already have DC and SG as even more elite JP units in the elite slot.

Assault Marines is probably one of the worst assault units in the game for its costs. You can barely win against pure shooting units in melee with them at the same point cost. They shouldnt lose their chainswords for taking a special weapon and their special melee weapon choice should be free. Perhaps a 1pt decrease in price or made troops so they become mobile scorers and that being their niche and not "Assaulting".

Company veterans and company champion rules should probably be moved to the other veterans units and these choices then be removed to lessen the bloat.

If they fixed these easy and obvious problems with the units then there would be more of a discussion on how to properly balance them for each role and perhaps there wont ever be a time all 4 units is the best at their intended role but right not that isnt even the biggest problem with those units. And if they cant do 4 different units then they could probably just remove VV for BA and let assault marines have an extra melee weapon and a storm shield or 2 and be something in between. Would fit the JP and assault focused marine chapter.

I have used assault marines and company vetetans quite a bit these last 2 months and I feel they have their uses and best use for "assault" marines have been to not charge anything harder than grots and understrength guard squads. Instead just focus on scoring while hiding out of los



   
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Klickor wrote:


Company veterans and company champion rules should probably be moved to the other veterans units and these choices then be removed to lessen the bloat.



They made a mistake breaking up the Command Squad, and I'll bet they know it. My money is on they were trying to get the specialists (almost assuredly The Apothecary) out of the Command squad as a solo option like it was - and in keeping with movie narratives of one guy with a medical bag running from squad to squad as people shout "Corpsman!" "Medic!"- combined with the new targeting character rules and characters joining units making a retinue difficult and clunky. To make matters worse they didn't make all the retinue specialists HQ/Characters or No Slot choices like a Retinue used to be at times clogging up the FOC if you do try and mimic the retinue in your new lists. As HQ's you could turn the Retinue into a Supreme Command, as no slot, you wouldn't be using 4 slots for what used to be one "squad" in your list. If they keep the characters can't normally join units thing, I'm betting they still come up with a Retinue rule (During Deployment you can deploy Champions, Ancients, Captains, Chaplains, Librarians etc together in one unit that must stay one unit.... ) on command squads/company veterans to get command squads of some kind going again.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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If Space Marines are coca cola, Primaris are new coke.

 
   
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 Daba wrote:
If Space Marines are coca cola, Primaris are new coke.


I kind of like them. I'll probably like them more when they're finished. I really like the Phobos. Space Marine Scouts as some sort of Boy Wonder and the Teen Titans never really appealed to me. But I did like the idea of the 10th Scout Company and now that we finally have a Scout Company Captain, hes not really the Scout Company Captain, he's just a Captain wearing the new Scout/Phobos Armor. They're creating a lot of headaches for themselves and their fluffy fans/players trying to make Primaris both different, and still similar to. What does a full Primaris Chapter look like in the first and 10th companies? I suppose a Primaris Chapter First Company is probably 10 squads of 10 Indomitus Crusaders Gray Shields Intercessors. The 3+3 Inceptor/Aggressor squads are already give me OCD nightmares as they morph from/into 10 man Reiver/Hellbalster squads. Do the two, four, or seven guys who didn't get to change their armor just have the day off?

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I'll just repeat what most have said. They won't be squat'ed yet, they just won't receive anymore models. All Primaris, all the time.

They definitely won't be gone in 9th, but we might see certain units disappear - no Index for those who aren't in the main 'dex - coinciding with their kits going LCTB.

By 10th however, when most of the OldMarine line has had a Primaris'ed replacement of sorts, they'll probably pull the plug. By that point most people will have 'upgraded' their collections and not care, as well as an insurgence of newbies who haven't known any different, and those who dislike the squat'ing will be drowned out, probably with lines like "Well you had to know this was coming", most likely from the same people who also insisted GW would never squat OldMarines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/21 11:24:43


 
   
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 Arbitrator wrote:
I'll just repeat what most have said. They won't be squat'ed yet, they just won't receive anymore models. All Primaris, all the time.

They definitely won't be gone in 9th, but we might see certain units disappear - no Index for those who aren't in the main 'dex - coinciding with their kits going LCTB.

By 10th however, when most of the OldMarine line has had a Primaris'ed replacement of sorts, they'll probably pull the plug. By that point most people will have 'upgraded' their collections and not care, as well as an insurgence of newbies who haven't known any different, and those who dislike the squat'ing will be drowned out, probably with lines like "Well you had to know this was coming", most likely from the same people who also insisted GW would never squat OldMarines.


It won't even be the models, it'll be the rules. Would you rather have a 10 man Tac Squad for 170, or a 10 man Intercessor for 170? Few people will take the Tacticals unless they're looking for transport tricks. 10 Intercessors for 350 or 10 Devs, with 8 heavy weapons for 400 and two slots?

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Across the Rubicon

Breton wrote:
 Daba wrote:
If Space Marines are coca cola, Primaris are new coke.


I kind of like them. I'll probably like them more when they're finished. I really like the Phobos. Space Marine Scouts as some sort of Boy Wonder and the Teen Titans never really appealed to me. But I did like the idea of the 10th Scout Company and now that we finally have a Scout Company Captain, hes not really the Scout Company Captain, he's just a Captain wearing the new Scout/Phobos Armor. They're creating a lot of headaches for themselves and their fluffy fans/players trying to make Primaris both different, and still similar to. What does a full Primaris Chapter look like in the first and 10th companies? I suppose a Primaris Chapter First Company is probably 10 squads of 10 Indomitus Crusaders Gray Shields Intercessors. The 3+3 Inceptor/Aggressor squads are already give me OCD nightmares as they morph from/into 10 man Reiver/Hellbalster squads. Do the two, four, or seven guys who didn't get to change their armor just have the day off?


I was against Primaris myself when they first came out. However, after getting Shadowspear and painting a few of the Phobos marines (I also really like Phobos armor) I have been making a Primaris, mostly, only army. To me, the jump in quality from non-Primaris to Primaris is equal to Mantic's Enforcers to Space Marines. I can't say I am a fan of single weapon loadouts for squads, but at the same time, while I might want a couple of stalker bolters with my bolt rifle Intercessors I think the unit would be lesser for it anyways.

As for scouts, until more word comes down from GW on how they work, I am treating my personal Ultima Founding chapter, the Avenging Eagles, scouts as a combination recon/CIA operative/Wetworker/Spy. Since scouts appear human far more than full space marines, they can infiltrate hive cities as gather intelligence and/or perform covert ops that full space marines are just too conspicuous. It is no secret that my Scouts see more game time in a Kill Team game instead of full 40k game for the above reasons. But my chapter is heavily influenced by United States military from WWII to Vietnam. In 40k terms, they are basically the Raptors chapter if they happened to be Blood Angels. Not because that makes any sense, but because my play style naturally leads me to assault/CQC. At the same time, I certainly don't see my chapter's use of Scouts fitting with most chapters in 40k as they would find these actions dishonorable.

I personally would prefer a combining of codices. Even after describing my chapter as Raptors if they were Blood Angels, I am not going to purchase the Blood Angels codex when the Space Marine one gets me everything I want with more flexibility to not play the same chapter over and over if I don't want to. I also prescribe to the idea that chances are most Chapters out there have special snowflake things going on themselves. I am not bound to the old ways of 40k, I would much rather see a streamline (read: blanding if you must) of many units. Pretty much all terminators could just be the same thing with different models instead every mark getting its own rules. The same goes for Deathwing. I mean I really like Deathwing, but I don't necessarily think they need their own rules at the scale and scope that 40k is now commonly played at. Same goes for power weapons. I really would prefer that power swords, mauls and axes were just one profile so I could model whatever and be done with it.

I can easily understand why players want all the special stuff. I just think they don't necessarily realize that more options is going to mean less balance. More options is introducing more complexity into the system and more complexity into the system means more places for issues to occur. Given that GW is only ever going to put so much effort into balancing their rules, this means more options that are out there the more white noise of options that aren't very good from a competitive stand point are going to be. It like asking for 20 pounds of groceries to fit in a single bad and weigh 5 pounds. It is just not possible. I am not even certain that even if GW poured all the resources into balancing that 40k, it still wouldn't have a bunch loser units that still aren't worth taking at even a semi-competitive level. It is just too much stuff with too few roles in the way the game is played.

   
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Breton wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Then you should practice your reading comprehension. The VOLUME of melee units with the same targets is the issue I am pointing at. Not the general effectiveness of melee. I chose melee units as an example. It is not the only example and the fact that core melee rules have problems too is besides the point.

Go back. Read. Try to understand. Come back when you can put 2 sentences together and understand the bigger point they make together.


Says the guy who didn't understand the point of CP Generation, Force Org, and game balance.

I see your "better grasp" of the game is still holding strong.

You said wrote:]All these units are doing the same job.


I said wrote:No, they're not. Sanguinary Guard are Command Squad equivalents/remnants for Dante and/or Jump Captains/etc and provide a fairly hefty Jump/CCW role as well as a Jump Medic, and a Jump Ancient with Banner. This is an overlapping, but not identical job as the Vanguard Vets, or the Death Company, or even the assault squad. All of these units perform a similar role but at a different level with a different investment cost thus performing a different job, Again look at the Primaris and how much the Intercessors and Infiltrators don't perform the same job. Oh wait. That's sure a fly in your ointment. How does one claim these jump pack marines with different rules, gear, and costs perform the same job as that jump pack marines while saying these bolter 3+ Primaris Marine troops don't perform the same job as those 3+ bolter Primaris troops. Incidentally, I bring Vanguard and Assault Marines to different lists for different purposes.


You Doubled Down with wrote:The VOLUME of melee units with the same targets


They don't have the same targets. They don't have the same job. Vanguard Vets with their access to AP -2 etc power weapons have entirely different target lists - and niche in an Army List -than Assault Marines with their AP -0 chainswords and even different than a 15 model unit of Death Company or a small unit of Sanguinary Guard. And this is long before we get to the target lists - let alone other strategic and tactical uses - of Assault Terminators, Inceptors, Centurions, Aggressors, and Reivers.

As I already mentioned, but you didn't appear to read Sanguinary Guard are the Command Squad role, and will be supporting cast for Dante or a Jump Captain/etc Warlord. Vanguard Veterans will most frequently be used as a hammer on the anvil, Assault Marines are best used - in this edition- for back line harassment of glass cannons, or squishy rear guard like Guard HW Teams. Surely with your superior grasp of the rules you already understood that units performing similar functions to different quality levels for different investment costs meant they had different primary, secondary, and tertiary uses and did not perform the SAME job? But then, why would you keep trying to claim this after it's been pointed out to you?

LOL at thinking Blood Angels have enough variety for those roles.
If you have to force a unit to do a different job than it was already intended, it is a failure in design. Each chapter only need 3-4 unique units at MOST. No, Blood Angels don't need a separate entry for an Apothecary. No, Dark Angels don't need a whole separate Deathwing entry.

Get over it. Also it was funny when someone said it was Xenos players complaining when, news flash, I'm a Marine player telling you this fake "variety" makes it harder to balance the armies.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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UK

I enjoyed the Blood Ravens short story in this month's WD - Custodes forcing Primaris on them. Seemed like a metaphor for GW.

Pleased to see the new Blood Raven datasheet was for a Terminator too

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It's wrong to blame the separate Chapter Codices for the Space Marines underperforming. Even when they were all in the Index they weren't exactly dominating the scene. The one Gulliman/Razerback/Stormraven build was quickly nerfed. Soup Marine lists don't seem to be a thing, which you would expect if the division of the armies was causing a power problem. I think that the Primaris were designed with 7th Ed in mind. The line continues to be designed by model designers instead of game designers. Hopefully they bring the games design in line with the great models.

GW can update/overhaul/improve all the Space Marines books at once if they choose to do so. Chapter Approved, White Dwarf, Vigilus style books and the FAQs all allow GW to update fundamental aspects that cut across the four main Marine books (like they did with the Bolter rule). Some changes to other books such as Astra Militarum and the Aeldari/Drukahri would also help Space Marines improve. I fail to see how combining the DA/BA/SW and Space Marines would achieve a positive effect.

I get that some folks don't like the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Don't play them. Ultimately the market will decide. It would seem that the separate books will hang around for now as they are still popular. Perhaps the same will hold true for "Oldmarines." If they sell well and don't cost too much (in terms of opportunity cost/distribution/shelf space etc then we can expect some aspect of them to hang around.


All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




TangoTwoBravo wrote:
It's wrong to blame the separate Chapter Codices for the Space Marines underperforming. Even when they were all in the Index they weren't exactly dominating the scene. The one Gulliman/Razerback/Stormraven build was quickly nerfed. Soup Marine lists don't seem to be a thing, which you would expect if the division of the armies was causing a power problem. I think that the Primaris were designed with 7th Ed in mind. The line continues to be designed by model designers instead of game designers. Hopefully they bring the games design in line with the great models.

GW can update/overhaul/improve all the Space Marines books at once if they choose to do so. Chapter Approved, White Dwarf, Vigilus style books and the FAQs all allow GW to update fundamental aspects that cut across the four main Marine books (like they did with the Bolter rule). Some changes to other books such as Astra Militarum and the Aeldari/Drukahri would also help Space Marines improve. I fail to see how combining the DA/BA/SW and Space Marines would achieve a positive effect.

I get that some folks don't like the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Don't play them. Ultimately the market will decide. It would seem that the separate books will hang around for now as they are still popular. Perhaps the same will hold true for "Oldmarines." If they sell well and don't cost too much (in terms of opportunity cost/distribution/shelf space etc then we can expect some aspect of them to hang around.


It IS part of the reason though. They're all the same units being costed as the same as Ultramarines in a Roboute bubble. That becomes a domino effect into units that are bad such as Death Company, because they're all around the same unit.
That's not even dealing with unit redundancies. Can you really look at me with a straight face and tell me that Deathwing should really be their own entry instead of how Terminators are handled in the Vanilla codex? That a Furioso can't just be handled with the Ironclad entry? That either army shouldn't have Centurions for reasons?

It's stupid, it really is. The fact that people continue to defend it is absurd.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot



Canada

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
It's wrong to blame the separate Chapter Codices for the Space Marines underperforming. Even when they were all in the Index they weren't exactly dominating the scene. The one Gulliman/Razerback/Stormraven build was quickly nerfed. Soup Marine lists don't seem to be a thing, which you would expect if the division of the armies was causing a power problem. I think that the Primaris were designed with 7th Ed in mind. The line continues to be designed by model designers instead of game designers. Hopefully they bring the games design in line with the great models.

GW can update/overhaul/improve all the Space Marines books at once if they choose to do so. Chapter Approved, White Dwarf, Vigilus style books and the FAQs all allow GW to update fundamental aspects that cut across the four main Marine books (like they did with the Bolter rule). Some changes to other books such as Astra Militarum and the Aeldari/Drukahri would also help Space Marines improve. I fail to see how combining the DA/BA/SW and Space Marines would achieve a positive effect.

I get that some folks don't like the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Don't play them. Ultimately the market will decide. It would seem that the separate books will hang around for now as they are still popular. Perhaps the same will hold true for "Oldmarines." If they sell well and don't cost too much (in terms of opportunity cost/distribution/shelf space etc then we can expect some aspect of them to hang around.


It IS part of the reason though. They're all the same units being costed as the same as Ultramarines in a Roboute bubble. That becomes a domino effect into units that are bad such as Death Company, because they're all around the same unit.
That's not even dealing with unit redundancies. Can you really look at me with a straight face and tell me that Deathwing should really be their own entry instead of how Terminators are handled in the Vanilla codex? That a Furioso can't just be handled with the Ironclad entry? That either army shouldn't have Centurions for reasons?

It's stupid, it really is. The fact that people continue to defend it is absurd.


Can you tell me with a straight face that having a Deathwing entry has anything to do with Terminators being behind the 8-Ball this edition? As for distinctiveness, the Deathwing have their own aesthetic, long-established lore, and differences in weapons loadout and morale. Again, don't play them if you don't want to. You don't need the DA Codex if you are running something else. The range of units available to the DA and BA has increased this edition. Lacking access to Centurions is not a deal-breaker. If it was, just soup some in. I fail to see what streamlining the Space Marine armies into one book would achieve in terms of improving the balance for those armies. Meanwhile, you would lose plenty of distinctiveness and flavour. That flavour is not hurting you.

As for costing of Space Marines units being set with a Roboute bubble, I think that you are really reaching (never mind that the Azrael aura effect is what lets DA hang in there). Even if it were true, a few points does not make a difference. Space Marines have some structural issues when they face most non-Space Marine opponents (or when considered for inclusion in an Imperium army). Those issues need to be addressed (cost/effectiveness of AM infantry, plethora of Xenos weapons that make a mockery of Space Marines and Primaris, etc).

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Deathwing morale is handled by a dark angle chapter tactic. Their aesthetic is bits in a box. Their lore is less than a page of fluff in a codex. None of that requires an entirely new datasheet.

Nobody is disputing that sm have other issues too. Sm are fully capable of having multiple problems at the same time. One of those problems is an excess of redundant units that only gets worse when you look at ba, da, and sw. Trim the fat. Condense. And once you have condensed the special snow flake units into their baseline units while keeping their special kits for bits and fluff you end up with no reason to keep giving them their own books. Then, with less bull gak to juggle it becomes easier to cost it all correctly and give it all distinct roles to fill.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Lance845 wrote:
Deathwing morale is handled by a dark angle chapter tactic. Their aesthetic is bits in a box. Their lore is less than a page of fluff in a codex. None of that requires an entirely new datasheet.

Nobody is disputing that sm have other issues too. Sm are fully capable of having multiple problems at the same time. One of those problems is an excess of redundant units that only gets worse when you look at ba, da, and sw. Trim the fat. Condense. And once you have condensed the special snow flake units into their baseline units while keeping their special kits for bits and fluff you end up with no reason to keep giving them their own books. Then, with less bull gak to juggle it becomes easier to cost it all correctly and give it all distinct roles to fill.

Exactly. Literally the only unique thing is the Plasma Cannon and that's about it. Hardly worth the unit entry and probably something everyone should've gotten anyway.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





And the only differance between a devestator and a tactical marine is devestators have more heavy weapons, let's just fold them into the same bloody datasheet too!

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






BrianDavion wrote:
And the only differance between a devestator and a tactical marine is devestators have more heavy weapons, let's just fold them into the same bloody datasheet too!


That is a big difference.

Termagants and Gargoyles both come with fleshborers. Gargs occupy a different FoC slot and come with a higher M and FLY. They serve distinct purposes.

Tac Marines are meant to be a adjustable take all comers unit that fills out your troops. Devestators are meant to be a heavy weapons kill the tanks strike unit with a distinct role of heavy fire support.

But Deathwing Knights are just melee Terminators. Ravenwing Bikers are just bikers. They don't have a different job from their generic counterpart. They do the same job with a different model kit in the same FoC slot. The generic unit has to compete with the snowflake.

The Carnifex, Thornback, and Screamer Killer are pointless distinctions. It's just a regular carnifex with some of the wargear the regular carnifex can take and it's own datasheet for no good reason.

The many versions of the Landraider is the same thing. Could just have the landraider and then different wargear options that changes it's purpose to the different load outs. It doesn't need to be like 5 different datasheets.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Legendary Dogfighter





So, honest fluff consideration:

Blood ravens are the new hot thing from GW. That being said, they are a dying chapter, because they lost their geneseed progenitor. They don't have a place to make new ones. Their fluff specifically states they are dying out.

HOW ARE THEY MAKING PRIMARIS BRs? Honestly, I think this is how GW plans on NOT mothballing the Oldboys. Because technically, their hot new toy can't be re-made into Primaris. They don't even know who their founder is.

But hay, maybe GW will just say feth the lore, and now we have Primaris BRs, GKs, and Custodes.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Space Marine





 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, honest fluff consideration:

Blood ravens are the new hot thing from GW. That being said, they are a dying chapter, because they lost their geneseed progenitor. They don't have a place to make new ones. Their fluff specifically states they are dying out.

HOW ARE THEY MAKING PRIMARIS BRs? Honestly, I think this is how GW plans on NOT mothballing the Oldboys. Because technically, their hot new toy can't be re-made into Primaris. They don't even know who their founder is.

But hay, maybe GW will just say feth the lore, and now we have Primaris BRs, GKs, and Custodes.


We know for a fact blood ravens can make new primaris, it's in their white dwarf stuff. Also they've been able to make marines this whole time even without knowing who their primarch is, I think they'll be fine.
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot



Canada

 Lance845 wrote:
Deathwing morale is handled by a dark angle chapter tactic. Their aesthetic is bits in a box. Their lore is less than a page of fluff in a codex. None of that requires an entirely new datasheet.

Nobody is disputing that sm have other issues too. Sm are fully capable of having multiple problems at the same time. One of those problems is an excess of redundant units that only gets worse when you look at ba, da, and sw. Trim the fat. Condense. And once you have condensed the special snow flake units into their baseline units while keeping their special kits for bits and fluff you end up with no reason to keep giving them their own books. Then, with less bull gak to juggle it becomes easier to cost it all correctly and give it all distinct roles to fill.


Deathwing morale is not just Grim Resolve - they have their own rule. If their aesthetic is just bits in a box then all 40K aesthetics is just bits in a box. They have 30 years of lore.

Never mind their distinct weapons load-out that is more than a Plasma Cannon (@Slayer - they can mix weapons weapons unlike other Chapters).

Back at Lance, "trimming the fat" does not achieve anything. I get the feeling that you just don't like some stuff (using Special Snowflake and some vulgarity is a bit of a giveaway). It's OK - you don't need to play them.

Parking all of that, Space Marine problems at the competitive level are not because they have multiple books. The solutions are found in other books (nerfs to the biggest offenders), or patches that can be applied to all Marines (like the Bolter rule).

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




TangoTwoBravo wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Deathwing morale is handled by a dark angle chapter tactic. Their aesthetic is bits in a box. Their lore is less than a page of fluff in a codex. None of that requires an entirely new datasheet.

Nobody is disputing that sm have other issues too. Sm are fully capable of having multiple problems at the same time. One of those problems is an excess of redundant units that only gets worse when you look at ba, da, and sw. Trim the fat. Condense. And once you have condensed the special snow flake units into their baseline units while keeping their special kits for bits and fluff you end up with no reason to keep giving them their own books. Then, with less bull gak to juggle it becomes easier to cost it all correctly and give it all distinct roles to fill.


Deathwing morale is not just Grim Resolve - they have their own rule. If their aesthetic is just bits in a box then all 40K aesthetics is just bits in a box. They have 30 years of lore.

Never mind their distinct weapons load-out that is more than a Plasma Cannon (@Slayer - they can mix weapons weapons unlike other Chapters).

Back at Lance, "trimming the fat" does not achieve anything. I get the feeling that you just don't like some stuff (using Special Snowflake and some vulgarity is a bit of a giveaway). It's OK - you don't need to play them.

Parking all of that, Space Marine problems at the competitive level are not because they have multiple books. The solutions are found in other books (nerfs to the biggest offenders), or patches that can be applied to all Marines (like the Bolter rule).

Oh yeah I forgot about mixing weapons. It's perfectly reasonable to do one dude with LCs, one with an Assault Cannon, one with a TH/SS, one with a Chainfist, and the Power Sword Sergeant because.

Nobody mixes, dude. Come on. It's pointless because you want something specialized.

Oh yeah they do have their own rule too! Did you know that, instead of just losing just one model to morale like other Dark Angels, they lose none? Soooooo distinct!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






You are incorrect about me likeing or not liking them. At worst i am neutral. At best i really enjoy their fluff. This isnt a hate crusade.

Trimming the fat works wonders every time. Every. Time. Trim the fat is one of the best things anyone can do in any medium. Hanging onto nonsense that weighs down the army/game/whatever out of some sense of nostalgia is a massive mistake. Again, i dont have, need, or want 5 different variations on the hormagaunt based on hive fleet. I think the 2 new (read remade from older editions) carnifex datasheets are dumb as feth and a waste of pages. Dont give screamer killers a beter bioplasma. Just make bioplasma good, cost it correctly, and put it on the regular carnifex data sheet.

The whole sm line is a bloated mess of expansion over decades with no trimming of the hedges. Its over grown, ugly, and in its own way. Time to cut it back. Long past time.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, honest fluff consideration:

Blood ravens are the new hot thing from GW. That being said, they are a dying chapter, because they lost their geneseed progenitor. They don't have a place to make new ones. Their fluff specifically states they are dying out.

HOW ARE THEY MAKING PRIMARIS BRs? Honestly, I think this is how GW plans on NOT mothballing the Oldboys. Because technically, their hot new toy can't be re-made into Primaris. They don't even know who their founder is.

But hay, maybe GW will just say feth the lore, and now we have Primaris BRs, GKs, and Custodes.


you don't need a primarch to produce geneseed. chapters tithe to the ad mech for just this reason. in the blood ravens case, they're no worse off then the legion of other chapters whose genetic herritage is "unknown" and the fluff does NOT specificly say they're dying out. the index astartes article mentions they where in crap shape, but between the events of the dawn of war series and being on the wrong side of the great rift this is no suprise. but thats not dying.

also the BR aren't some "new hot" they're a space marine chapter that has been around for awhile as the protegionist chapter of the dawn of war series. which makes them 15 years old.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/22 02:56:45


Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Also its heavily implied that cawl was not super specific about which gene seed he used to make the first batches of primaris. He has stock of all 20 origional legions (even the lost ones) and while he was forbidden from using the lost or traitor ones to make primaris cawl wanted to experiment and hes done a lot of gak hes been forbidden to do before because science so... Chances are a bunch of the primaris running around are not from loyalist gene stock to begin with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/22 03:03:06



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
 
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