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The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.

 harlokin wrote:
The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.

The cross-faction accessibility i something i hope will stay as its basically two raiders stapled together and upgunned.

As for scourges and hellions being able to get on it to me feels more like a mistake on the venoms and raiders's rules than on the tantalus. Every other faction that has transports and Jet pack units can put them in transports, and thats what makes sense to me.

I agree that these are still a bit jarring when compared to out other options.

I still feel that we're paying a solid 100pts only for the transport capacity honestly and that transport capacity is overvalued as a whole in the game.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.

The cross-faction accessibility i something i hope will stay as its basically two raiders stapled together and upgunned.

As for scourges and hellions being able to get on it to me feels more like a mistake on the venoms and raiders's rules than on the tantalus. Every other faction that has transports and Jet pack units can put them in transports, and thats what makes sense to me.

It would also open the way to conversions - such as a Venom towing a Hellion guy around like a water skier.

 vipoid wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.

The cross-faction accessibility i something i hope will stay as its basically two raiders stapled together and upgunned.

As for scourges and hellions being able to get on it to me feels more like a mistake on the venoms and raiders's rules than on the tantalus. Every other faction that has transports and Jet pack units can put them in transports, and thats what makes sense to me.

It would also open the way to conversions - such as a Venom towing a Hellion guy around like a water skier.

yeah that would be pretty funny. But honestly, a skyboard isnt that big. Theres no real reason in my eyes why a hellion couldn't just hop off his skyboard and hold it by his side (skateboard style). Unless in the fluff skyboards can't be turned off or something?

The Tantalus really pisses me off. It needs to just be 250pts.

Its the same cost as this thing, http://wahapedia.ru/wh40k8ed/factions/adeptus-custodes/Ares-Gunship

On a positive note, I can't wait for the FW book.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.

The cross-faction accessibility i something i hope will stay as its basically two raiders stapled together and upgunned.

As for scourges and hellions being able to get on it to me feels more like a mistake on the venoms and raiders's rules than on the tantalus. Every other faction that has transports and Jet pack units can put them in transports, and thats what makes sense to me.

It would also open the way to conversions - such as a Venom towing a Hellion guy around like a water skier.

yeah that would be pretty funny. But honestly, a skyboard isnt that big. Theres no real reason in my eyes why a hellion couldn't just hop off his skyboard and hold it by his side (skateboard style). Unless in the fluff skyboards can't be turned off or something?

Oh, I absolutely agree. I mean, given that half the Venom's passengers seem to just be clinging to the wings or such anyway, I don't see why they couldn't just fix their skyboards to the wings via magnetic locks or something. Seems like something an advanced race with little care for danger should be able to accomplish.

And Scourges should be even easier. Bird and bat wings can fold up quite neatly, to the point where I don't see a Scourge taking up any more space than a Haemonculus, Sslyth or Acothyst.

I think its has more to do with the arenas, remember Hellions, Reavers, Wyches all are having constant arenas for glory, fame, money, etc.. and those arena's still are bound to rules of the their games. I think they just get used to it after awhile. Kinda like in an interview with Tony Hawk he said (Not word for word) that its more weird for him to be off the skateboard than on, and he always just wants to travel with it instead of walking, EDIT: Joe Rogan Pod cast.

 harlokin wrote:
The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.

Don't give them ideas. Ever since they got rid of trueborn we needed something that could be transported with good firepower. Scourge are honestly our best bet. Imagine 12 dark lances in there. Of course it might suffer the all your eggs in one basket problem.

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For me i dunno i want reavers to be good again but i think i'll put them on the back burner. I made a list last night and even i don't know if it's any good. It has one detachment for prophets of flesh grotesques, one detachment with dark technomancers and another trait as well as 3 dissie raiders and like 4 hex rifles total as well as 3 squads of blaster scourge from DS and finally 3 obsidian rose dissie ravagers and 2 void ravens. I'm unsure if there's enough anti-tank in this list somehow and there might not be enough units for screening DS units. I may have to use the void ravens to screen DS enemies and then use a raider as a sacrificial lamb to protect the rest of the army. Sadly this may box me in if i don't get first turn and the enemy DS units are significant enough to force me to castle up a bit.

It should not transport scourges. We don't need them in Transports we need them to just be better in general to want to take them. They are supposed to be our drop support unit, lets leave it that way.

The Reaper and Tantalus should stay all 3 factions so each has a Heavy vehicle in that slot, as of right now Wyches can not take Brigades without the Reaper.

Reaper is fine as is, just make it 160pts so people don't cry its to cheap and at 160 its still perfectly fine.

What the Tantalus needs is to either be stronger, cheaper, or Tougher, b.c as or right now its not good at any of those things, 4 Raiders is better in literally 4 out of 5 things it does, they are only worst at Strength of the gun, but in DT it doesn't matter. For now as is I wouldn't play the Tantalus for anything over 280pts.

What i would like to see is it becomes a lot tankier, give it a 2+ and 4++ with a 5++ in melee, also give it Inure Pain always and finally make it 24w, now its worth its 400pts. Make it out piece that takes turns to die, but don't increase its fire power, let it stay 2D and 12 shots, its not a knight it doesn't have crazy guns. But I wasnt to be able to get somewhere with it with 16 dudes that can survive 2-3 turns.

Or alternatively, don't change anything and make it 275 ish points and have 2-3 on the table. if its 300pst give it invul in combat at least.

EDIT: 2 Reapers even at 160pts will be 320pts, its 24 wounds, and 2D6 Str 8, -4, D6 shots, That right there is already better than a Tantalus.

As it currently stands, Kabal is supposed to be our shooty subfaction, which is why I think only they have access to Ravagers. I think that keeping Reapers as Kabal/Cult/Coven makes a mockery of that, and it clearly wasn't even considered if you look at the interactions between the FW vehicles and the Cult of Strife and Dark Creed stratagems. It also makes Dark Technomancers even more poisonous to the internal balance of our codex.

 harlokin wrote:
As it currently stands, Kabal is supposed to be our shooty subfaction

*Looks at the custom Kabal traits in Phoenix Rising*

Are you sure?

Really? As it currently stands kabal is shooting, haemonculus can handle melee and is shooty because of psychic awakening somehow and wych cult just ineffectually fights and dies. Seriously i can't find a single valid use for wych cult anymore except grabbing objectives real fast, being an expensive screen and dying real fast.

At this point I would like our army to be good at anything.

I would argue we need to increase our lethality by about 50% currently.

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
As it currently stands, Kabal is supposed to be our shooty subfaction

*Looks at the custom Kabal traits in Phoenix Rising*

Are you sure?

Well....someone in the pub told me so, but I wouldn't swear to it in court


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Really? As it currently stands kabal is shooting, haemonculus can handle melee and is shooty because of psychic awakening somehow and wych cult just ineffectually fights and dies. Seriously i can't find a single valid use for wych cult anymore except grabbing objectives real fast, being an expensive screen and dying real fast.

I don't disagree, Wych cults really need a complete overhaul. I would like them to have an invul whether in combat or not (like Quins), and it would be cool if their Plasma Grenades were buffed to enable them to be close range vehicle killers.

Possibly not what people want, but I think wych cult units just need to be significantly cheaper.

I don't think wyches for example are terrible - and in the new mission format could be quite interesting in quasi-heretical 15-20 strong units played in a way we are seeing boyz/daemons. But they should be no more than 9 points per model and preferably go all the way back down to 8.

In a similar vein hellions could be interesting if they went back down to 12 points a model. Other options are boosting the hellglaive to have some AP - but I feel at 15 points the problem is fragility and this would do nothing to help. A base 6++, a minus 1 to hit, or something in that vein would be nice.

Similar story with Reavers.

I generally stand aside from HQ laments - but the Succubus is ludicrously bad, far worse imo than the Archon. Really can't see why the Archite Glaive shouldn't have the Blood Glaive stat line - and frankly even D3 damage seems kind of soft in today's meta - 2, 3, even 4 would seem more respectable.

I can't grasp why Reavers don't have the 4++ Wyches have in combat, it would be a nice counterpart to Shining Spears, while being fluffy.

First post!

Poison weapons... I think the ideal thing for them would be to cause multiple damage on non-vehicle models... Like D2 on rifles, D3 on cannons. That, and being able to wound easier depending on the quality of the weapon, too, or special posion rule from sub-factions. It would make sense. And then some relic poison weapon swith AP bonus

I could see poison doing something like 6+ to wound = +1 or +2 damage vs infantry/beasts/swarms/monsters...

Id rather not see wyches stay cheapish cannonfodder, they have the same problem aspect warriors have, they are suppost to be super elite space gladiators / assassins and have fallen so far behind the curve its sad.

Old wych weapons were scary, denying the extra attack for 2 weapons in melee was huge, on top of their 4++ in melee.

If anything wyches should be far more deadly in melee to make up how fragile and expensive they should be.

I agree.

Poison needs a complete rework, it's simply craptastic at the moment.

I would prefer Wyches to stay at current points and have better rules, rather than stay as is rules-wise and get cheaper.

Wyches honestly are fine, they just need their Traits updated to meet everyone else's traits. Its Hellions, Beasts/BM's, Succubus, and Reavers out of the wyches that needs updated.

I use Wyches every game.

Kinda theorycrafting here but would using Hunt From The Shadows on a big unit of scourges be a good idea?(cover save against shooting become +2 for 1cp). Not like there are any other really good targets for it save maybe incubi. Gives them a 2+ 6+++ save if you dropped them into cover and can make them a bit tougher to remove for standard anti infantry weapons which could draw some of the ap off of venoms and raiders.

You mean 10man Scourge units? I never played them in more than 5, I don't trust them that much haha, and I think the free deepstrike is better used in two MSU.

About Cults, I don't know how to play them. I played Wyches so much in Kill Team, but I don't know how to in 40k. I have 15 of them and 6 Reavers, Is that enough for a small patrol? I have transports for them, a Raider for 10 I guess it'd work.

Ignore covers ignores that stratagem so be carefor about that.

operkoi wrote:
Kinda theorycrafting here but would using Hunt From The Shadows on a big unit of scourges be a good idea?(cover save against shooting become +2 for 1cp). Not like there are any other really good targets for it save maybe incubi. Gives them a 2+ 6+++ save if you dropped them into cover and can make them a bit tougher to remove for standard anti infantry weapons which could draw some of the ap off of venoms and raiders.

I've had the misfortune to already experience Amish's cautionary advice before mentioned it just now. I had an iron hands opponent in one case ignores cover with like that gatling cannon and autocannons. Let's just say most of them died first turn before i got the chance to even use them and i had like 21 of em total. This was end of 8th though i think. I was using dark lances on them.

Also as somebody that just a couple hours ago just used 3 squads of 5 man scourge with blasters that only did a combined 4 damage to the enemy chaos predator with 12 blasters (and no other damage) and then next turn got assaulted and killed within a turn i'd say they're a waste of points. As something that cost about 400 pts that was so embarrassing i think i'll keep scourge off the table again for another long while until they're made better or else use them with shredders instead.

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@warmaster21: Sadly poison needs more than just multiple damage to be effective. We need an AP value on our poison even if it's just -1 or -2 AP. At least then poison might actually be a threat. Electro-corrosive whips have both and as it stands they're one of the only poisoned weapons worth their salt. Sadly only acothysts and haemonculus can get them.

Wyches need more than a 6+ and 6++ save outside of combat. They're ok in melee but outside of it they are embarrassingly fragile. At least overwatch is a lot less likely now. The real problem i have is mortal wounds on a 5+ from charging aren't that good anymore. I'm starting to just rely on grotesques for mortal wound shenanigans with their flesh gauntlets. They're really the only thing durable enough that can dish out enough mortal wounds to be worthwhile. I played a game with 10 grotesques in a unit that were on the board all game against a chaos army that tends to shoot off most of my army and the opposing player only killed maybe 5 of em after 4 turns. Granted they lack mobility but they certainly make for a great wall with great damage potential. Using the re-roll wound's stratagem they managed to kill off 2 chaos rhinos with just 8 guys in one round of combat in my last game.

Unfortunately Scourges are a suicide unit with no teeth. Probably one of the reasons I've never fielded a unit.

Now, if they got some space marine bs like shoots twice when firing at the same target and dark light weaponry was +1 to wound against vehicles and minimum damage 3. Maybe...

They would still be dead after they fired though, so again. Not my cup of tea.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Unfortunately Scourges are a suicide unit with no teeth. Probably one of the reasons I've never fielded a unit.

Now, if they got some space marine bs like shoots twice when firing at the same target and dark light weaponry was +1 to wound against vehicles and minimum damage 3. Maybe...

They would still be dead after they fired though, so again. Not my cup of tea.

They used to have teeth until about 8th edition. It used to be a 5 scourge squad with heat lances would DS in within half range pretty easily and then half range melta lance nuke a vehicle into oblivion. They also used to be alright vs monsters too. When 8th hit heat lances could only DS beyond the half range mark and they couldn't get obsessions so taking them with melta became absolutely useless.

Basically 8th made most of what i had awful. Shredders were fun for a time but once again they had to get in close and trueborn were over-costed. After that they got rid of trueborn for no reason at all which we've had since 5th edition.

I'm honestly trying to figure out what we have left that's even considered "Good" anymore. After my last game i suppose grotesques still qualify. Dark technomancers with dissie raiders all seem decent. They still have issues killing more numerous MEQ units however.

Honestly, there isn't much good anymore.

Drazhar can be good if he gets into combat and rolls some 6's.

Talos are ok.

Grotesques I've never actually used or wanted to use so I'll just take people's word on it.

Apparently Mandrakes are good. Again, they don't look like they belong in the army really so I've never used them.

Like I was saying earlier. Everything need a huge rework and I think our army needs a ~50% buff in offensive capability.

For winning the game or for damage? B.c we win the game via points and taking lots of layers of units with some key fire power units like Reapers, Talos, Drazhar

My current list with dark technomancers raiders and hex rifles were ok. I'd have done better without huge F off walls blocking line of sight and seeing anything on the other side of the terrain. Probably should've just tried flying around but I was somewhat worried about getting assaulted. Maybe if I shoot with a bunch of raider and use fire and fade after shooting to turn one of em into a floating wall they have to get through to assault or have it block units maybe.

I still think foot troops are usually worse for us than most esp due to us having GEQ infantry. Maybe I'll buy a lot more wracks for several reason in the future and see how an enemy cuts through a bunch of t5 4++ 6+ FnP even if it's just one wound on an objective point. I could potentially go for reavers instead but I'd really rather not.

My last list has a little over 400 pts of stuff that I'd do better without (scourge mostly).

I dunno maybe I should ds units of 10 PoF wracks somewhere on an objective and just see how it goes.

Sadly troops units will be needed to do summoning or other objectives and only covens are durable enough for that.

I'll try to mull tactics over later. Much as I love grotesques I'll either need more anti tank or bikes to take points in time. Maybe if i put the void ravens on the bench for some average sized bikes to score objectives. I'll figure something eventually. It's to late right now but hex rifle with DT boost can put some nice damage on enemy character along with. Help of spite for sucking the enemy psykers brain out his donkey-cave as a warning to others that which to tempt the warp again.

For wining on primaries:

Wyches are for assaulting units on objectives (mid-field or opponent's deployment zone). Their 4++ 6++ and obsec will help them. Just don't assault any non-blast shooty monster/vehicle, and use obscuring terrain to get there safely.

Wracks are perfect for the opposite: charging shooty monsters and vehicles sitting on or near objectives. They are also good at grabbing objectives out in the open while performing actions. With a haemmy nearby and PoF, they become scoring beasts in primaries and secondaries (do you remember Cornucopians?). Dark technomancers is really sweet but in triple patrol with Kabal, Coven and Cult, PoF gives you so much...

Kabals are there for staying in their Raiders/venoms n your deployment zone/battlefield half at the start of the battle, using mobility and target priority to stay safe and create oportunities for later in the game, and only move to midfield objectives if there's a good change without retaliation (or you are going for a target saturation move). If their transport gets destroyed, they will disembark unto the objective, and from turn 4 (3 if BH) they are already inmune to morale, so you'll stay there until they wipe you completely.

My list for 9th is a Raiding force 3x patrol with BH Kabal, PoF Coven and then either another coven patrol or a wych cult (I have yet to decide which subfaction offers the most to the list).