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 Imateria wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Aspect Warriors do feel weird at the moment, being largely defined by their weapons, rather than their skill with them. Specialists without a specific specialism.

Banshees for instance. They emit a psionic scream when charging, described as crippling the foe.

But what do they actually do in-game? Genuine question as I don’t have the book, and my Phoenix book is on loan to a friend.

A cursory Google suggests prior to +1 S power swords, they prevented Overwatch. I suspect that’s no later than 8th Ed.

Sure, preventing Overwatch was pretty useful, especially for a fragile, typically small unit. And it seems they could advance and charge.

But....that was it. Once you were actually in HTH, they gained no real perks.

That doesn’t feel right to me at all. I mean, if your opponent is frozen in place, however temporarily, you can go for the vulnerable areas. So I think thematically, let alone “pretty useful in game”, that could be represented with increased damage on the Charge.

For how I see the effect? Look at Iron Man, and that doohickey Stane uses on the baddies and on Tony. Complete paralysis if you don’t have protection.

Yes, I am aware there’s a difference between stuff in the background and stuff in the game. But Aspect Warriors need something to make them feared and deadly again.

Banshees have three abilities, one is Advance and Charge and +3 to charge, really good for getting you into combat, one is -1 to hit in combat and the other is deny Overwatch. Denying Overwatch was a lot more useful in 8th than it is in 9th but an ability that lets tyou get into combat much easier is definitely nice.

Yeah, they don't have any trouble getting into melee, the problem is that once they do they hit like wet noodles and die like flies compared to other "elite" melee specialists.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Aspect Warriors do feel weird at the moment, being largely defined by their weapons, rather than their skill with them. Specialists without a specific specialism.

Banshees for instance. They emit a psionic scream when charging, described as crippling the foe.

But what do they actually do in-game? Genuine question as I don’t have the book, and my Phoenix book is on loan to a friend.

A cursory Google suggests prior to +1 S power swords, they prevented Overwatch. I suspect that’s no later than 8th Ed.

Sure, preventing Overwatch was pretty useful, especially for a fragile, typically small unit. And it seems they could advance and charge.

But....that was it. Once you were actually in HTH, they gained no real perks.

That doesn’t feel right to me at all. I mean, if your opponent is frozen in place, however temporarily, you can go for the vulnerable areas. So I think thematically, let alone “pretty useful in game”, that could be represented with increased damage on the Charge.

For how I see the effect? Look at Iron Man, and that doohickey Stane uses on the baddies and on Tony. Complete paralysis if you don’t have protection.

Yes, I am aware there’s a difference between stuff in the background and stuff in the game. But Aspect Warriors need something to make them feared and deadly again.

Banshees have three abilities, one is Advance and Charge and +3 to charge, really good for getting you into combat, one is -1 to hit in combat and the other is deny Overwatch. Denying Overwatch was a lot more useful in 8th than it is in 9th but an ability that lets tyou get into combat much easier is definitely nice.

Yeah, they don't have any trouble getting into melee, the problem is that once they do they hit like wet noodles and die like flies compared to other "elite" melee specialists.

As an Iybraesil player, I will say that banshees feel a lot more killy now that power swords provide +1 Strength. They didn't really get better against marines because of the marine wound increase, but a squad of banshees actually feels like it can win a fight against non-marines now. Hunters of Ancient relics (+1 Attacks when standing near objectives) also helps them out a lot this edition as your opponent has so much incentive to wander out onto objectives. Aspects in general could definitely use a boost, but I'm still trying to decide whether or not banshees are relatively okay now.

Regarding stances, I feel those could be difficult to balance as you expand the utility of a bunch of units, and I also don't feel aspects are that specialized these days. The elevator pitch for fire dragons is that they kill vehicles all day every day, but I've found that they're also pretty decent against gravis and bike marines with their piles of wounds. Banshees can chop up T3 and single wound T4 targets pretty well, but they're also okay at long-bomb charging shooty units that are too durable to kill outright. Reapers already have their two gun profiles that make them great against a wide variety of infantry, vehicles, and many things inbetween. Warp spiders have pretty decent shooting against lightly-armored infantry or sufficiently expensive heavily-armored infantry, but I also use them as objective grabbers. With the exception of scorpions (who are really only good at hiding and holding objectives), I feel like I have a couple of possible jobs for each aspect type as-is. Especially with some exarch powers making it possible to redefine the role of a unit somewhat significantly. I have bladestorm avengers that I use to shoot things to death, and I have shimmershield + Defend avengers that team up with my banshees to steal objectives out from under enemy units.

And if I spam fire dragons but go up against a horde army and thus lack a good target, well, that's what happens to any army that takes anti-tank to the exclusion of anti-infantry.

The changes I want to see to aspects are generally either...
A.) Make them just slightly more efficient against their intended targets - Fire dragons kill vehicles reasonably well, but they're a big points investment, and they're very likely to die after the first time they shoot. Plus, they feel weirdly inefficient when compared to eradicators. Ditto swooping hawks vs pteraxii.
B.) Make sure they actually have the right tools for their roles - Banshees shutting down overwatch is kind of outdated now. I'd love avengers to be able to intercept enemy charges to protect your more expensive units. Scorpions should probably be good at striking from the shadows, and they currently lack both the charge bonuses and the raw offense to do that job. That sort of thing.

It's one of those moments that make you feel like Exarch abilities should come in two flavors. The Exarch power that's specific to the Exarch that shows how skilled they are and a Exarch ability chosen that lets you give the squad a boost in some way.

This way you can have say the Banshee (To use as the example) ability that gives the Exarch Disarming Strike. While at the same time having the proper squad have -1 to hit in melee or 5+ FNP at the same time or something new like +1 to wound on charge. This way to show how skilled the unit and Exarch is rather then being forced to choose to boost either the Exarch or the squad. Might not boost them up considerably, but could prove to give them a cooler benefit to show how good they are at what they do.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It's one of those moments that make you feel like Exarch abilities should come in two flavors. The Exarch power that's specific to the Exarch that shows how skilled they are and a Exarch ability chosen that lets you give the squad a boost in some way.

This way you can have say the Banshee (To use as the example) ability that gives the Exarch Disarming Strike. While at the same time having the proper squad have -1 to hit in melee or 5+ FNP at the same time or something new like +1 to wound on charge. This way to show how skilled the unit and Exarch is rather then being forced to choose to boost either the Exarch or the squad. Might not boost them up considerably, but could prove to give them a cooler benefit to show how good they are at what they do.

I'd love that. Flavorful. useful. Would actually give squads a fair bit of customization between the shrine powers, exarch powers, and exarch weapons. We... should prooobably be paying points for our exarchs at this point though...

Imo the squad based abilities should be training styles that they learn rather than exarch powers.

The exarch powers should represent the supernatural skills only possible when an Eldar falls to a path, those supernatural space ninja abilities that make exarchs the terrifying warriors they are.

I'd like it if Shuriken Pistols were pistol 2 instead of 1. It'd align with the fluff a bit more and might not be too OP.

I agree completely with the sentiment that Shuriken Catapaults should be increased in range even a few inches would be good, perhaps Dire Shuriken catapults as well. maybe to 20 inches? If they don't increase the range of Shuriken catapults they should allow Guardian squads to have a minimum of five models instead of ten as it won't be as much of a waste of a unit's firepower if you have a Guardian Defender squad with a long-range weapon like a starcannon or missile launcher. Dire Avengers could get or the option to get the "Eldar Close Combat weapon" which just allows "re-rolls in close combat" that Storm Guardians get, this would make them a bit better in close combat and would reinforce their adaptability more.

It seems that the aura to re-roll attacks is no longer given the "auraree"? I hope autarchs don't lose their own re-roll and it'd be nice if it wasn't just 1's but misses entirely.

Also the aforementioned 6+ FNP save if moved or stood still and a 5+ FNP if they advanced or when in close combat, to simulate their dodginess but that one might be too much to ask.

Hmmmm.

Hmmmmmmmm. I suspect there’s good reason for this.....

But what if Banshees could assign the wounds they cause?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hmmmm.

Hmmmmmmmm. I suspect there’s good reason for this.....

But what if Banshees could assign the wounds they cause?

Maybe not Banshees themselves, but the Exarch. Iirc they used to have some ability that let them reposition before combat so they could try to target certain models.

tbf for me the problem are not the UP rules, after all if played well and with the right combos eldar can stand theyr ground, hardly, but they can

I'd prefer new models than strong rules this edition tbh

i am that desperate

 InVerno wrote:
tbf for me the problem are not the UP rules, after all if played well and with the right combos eldar can stand theyr ground, hardly, but they can

I'd prefer new models than strong rules this edition tbh

i am that desperate

More than fair enough! Lol

 InVerno wrote:
tbf for me the problem are not the UP rules, after all if played well and with the right combos eldar can stand theyr ground, hardly, but they can

I'd prefer new models than strong rules this edition tbh

i am that desperate

Yeah if Eldar got crap rules but a range of new plastic models, I'd be more than happy enough.

 dan2026 wrote:

 InVerno wrote:
tbf for me the problem are not the UP rules, after all if played well and with the right combos eldar can stand theyr ground, hardly, but they can

I'd prefer new models than strong rules this edition tbh

i am that desperate

Yeah if Eldar got crap rules but a range of new plastic models, I'd be more than happy enough.

On the other hand I've already got 5K of Craftworlds and would prefer them not to spend the majority of the edition on the shelf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hmmmm.

Hmmmmmmmm. I suspect there’s good reason for this.....

But what if Banshees could assign the wounds they cause?

The core rules has no way to deal with a unit that has more than 1 model that has been wounded, it becomes a problem when allocating wounds from further attacks. There's a lot of Gets Hot type weapons that have had to be FAQ'd from "the bearer takes a mortal wound" to "the unit takes a mortal wound" for this reason. Giving such an ability to the Banshee exarch would be forcing your opponent into house ruleing territory, or require whole paragraphs of writing.

 InVerno wrote:
tbf for me the problem are not the UP rules, after all if played well and with the right combos eldar can stand theyr ground, hardly, but they can

I'd prefer new models than strong rules this edition tbh

i am that desperate

It’s the ‘right combos’ that irks me. As someone who’d have games against Craftworlds, I’d rather I saw more than just the same list/s over and over again.

Because sure, your Codex may have some powerful combos, but if those combos are all you can do with it, then your Codex is bobbins. And that’s my current perception of Craftworlds.

I’m by no means great at the game, and so out of practice it’s not even funny. I don’t mind get stomped into the dirt - I’d just like the feet doing the stomping to have a varied wardrobe of shoes to choose from.

To sort of pick on Imateria for a second. He mentions having 5k of Craftworld stuff, which is a fair old army. But how much of that 5k sees regular usage? Has he wound up with 5k because he really likes the models, or because a Decent Craftworld Army has required him to spam different units from Codex to Codex, and so he’s been committed to an arms race, and restricted to certain builds?

Not to be taken as an attack on Imateria, I’m just picking on him because what he said was relevant to my current thinking, and I’d genuinely like his input. None of my speculations are meant to be suggestions of anyone Doing The Hobby Wrong either. If you’re jam is the most efficient list every time all of the time, you shine on with that and don’t let anyone put you down for having a preference. But....if Craftworld players feel forced into it, because it’s either Super Strong Meta List, or Get Stomped, that is not cool on GW’s behalf.

maybe someday eldar will get no-rolls to hit when attacking them like be'lakor. doesnt seem really out of place for space ninja elves.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Because sure, your Codex may have some powerful combos, but if those combos are all you can do with it, then your Codex is bobbins. And that’s my current perception of Craftworlds.

+1 to something, reroll with something, extra range or move or action with something is always going to be more powerful than with some other different unit. And all of the Eldar units are very different, so a rule that makes reapers overpowered may do nothing for banshees for example.

The more units you have and the more ways you have to buff them with special rules, the worse it generally gets.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 InVerno wrote:
tbf for me the problem are not the UP rules, after all if played well and with the right combos eldar can stand theyr ground, hardly, but they can

I'd prefer new models than strong rules this edition tbh

i am that desperate

It’s the ‘right combos’ that irks me. As someone who’d have games against Craftworlds, I’d rather I saw more than just the same list/s over and over again.

Because sure, your Codex may have some powerful combos, but if those combos are all you can do with it, then your Codex is bobbins. And that’s my current perception of Craftworlds.

I’m by no means great at the game, and so out of practice it’s not even funny. I don’t mind get stomped into the dirt - I’d just like the feet doing the stomping to have a varied wardrobe of shoes to choose from.

To sort of pick on Imateria for a second. He mentions having 5k of Craftworld stuff, which is a fair old army. But how much of that 5k sees regular usage? Has he wound up with 5k because he really likes the models, or because a Decent Craftworld Army has required him to spam different units from Codex to Codex, and so he’s been committed to an arms race, and restricted to certain builds?

Not to be taken as an attack on Imateria, I’m just picking on him because what he said was relevant to my current thinking, and I’d genuinely like his input. None of my speculations are meant to be suggestions of anyone Doing The Hobby Wrong either. If you’re jam is the most efficient list every time all of the time, you shine on with that and don’t let anyone put you down for having a preference. But....if Craftworld players feel forced into it, because it’s either Super Strong Meta List, or Get Stomped, that is not cool on GW’s behalf.

This feels like a very valid question following my previous post.

I built my army up around the idea of an Iyanden Wraith army with Aspect Warrior support, so it's mostly Wraithguard/blades (25 of them), a Wraithknight, a Wraithseer, Hemlock Wraithfighter, Shadow Spectres (the aspect of death, seems fitting for Iyanden, plus really cool models), Lynx, Wave Serpents and some other infantry. I never expected the army to be particularly powerful but I have very rarely won any games with it. Even in 9th, you expect an army of elite, tough infantry to do really well as thats the direction the games moved in but they are neither tough enough nor capable of dealing much damage without heavy reliance on Doom + Jinx and even thats limited.

Might not actually be 5K now, it's been a few years since I counted that up early in 8th and the points have changed drastically since then.

The suggestions for different stance/weapon options is namely because, whilst specialism is the aspects thing, hyper specialism can be crippling in a list, so some flexibility is required, otherwise the unit won't get chosen for the purpose of tournament/pick up games, where you would rely on more flexible units (which I'd argue is what Eldar players do now), which in turn influences all Eldar armies to be very samey unless it's narrative.

Rather than think are banshees good against meq, geq etc etc, ask what they are good against... Off the top of my head, SoB in terms of their penetration and damage resulting in a kill, scions as well, is there any other opposition where they wouldn't be overkill (geq etc) or wouldn't be wet noodles?

If they are only good against two factions, then they don't work and need some flexibility.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The suggestions for different stance/weapon options is namely because, whilst specialism is the aspects thing, hyper specialism can be crippling in a list, so some flexibility is required, otherwise the unit won't get chosen for the purpose of tournament/pick up games, where you would rely on more flexible units (which I'd argue is what Eldar players do now), which in turn influences all Eldar armies to be very samey unless it's narrative.

Rather than think are banshees good against meq, geq etc etc, ask what they are good against... Off the top of my head, SoB in terms of their penetration and damage resulting in a kill, scions as well, is there any other opposition where they wouldn't be overkill (geq etc) or wouldn't be wet noodles?

If they are only good against two factions, then they don't work and need some flexibility.

Exactly.

Like a firedragon not having access to a flame thrower, but a storm guardian squad having more options is just embarassing.

I am more readily taking a storm guardian squad because they can take flamers and/or Melta weapons. Yeah they don't get the exarchs, but they are 10x cheaper and will get popped no matter what I do especially for their low wound count.

Its a huge issue in the game rules and narrative, especially the eldar of all things should be far less rigid in its army and miltiary.

A way to do this is to offer options for the aspect warriors, to give them abilities, and WEAPONRY that fits their theme. Like Dire Avengers being able to all take a more powerful shuriken weapon that is not an assault weapon. To taking a special shuriken cannon exclusive to Dark Reapers. To Fire Dragons being able to take... I don't flamers? Like the best flamers on base?

To Rules interacting with how aspect warriors work, so certain craftworlds work better.... Sort of like the Lumineth? Cause the lumineth are a great case and point of Aspect Warriors working better in other armies, and not others but the Vanari (Guardians) work per faction rules, so one faction rules gives them +2 leadership and really good abilities, but you are less incentivized to take Aspect Warriors (Alelementari) in these lists.

If they can replicate Lumineth's rules and range in 40k for Craftworlds... It would be great! I mean that is what the Alelementari are... tHey are just aspect warriors, but better, far better focused, and more interesting rules and dynamic.

For Fire Dragons? Maybe just optional fire between Melta and Flamer settings?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For Fire Dragons? Maybe just optional fire between Melta and Flamer settings?

I mean I have always suggested they have LANCE Weapons. So they can be both close and long range depending on the mission. Like a long range bright lance is still firing a flame at it just at a tight focused point.

I am all for fire dragons only have two, but having three would really open them up a lot more.

My crux is giving options to a unit will only make that unit more useful. Like what happens with space marine primaris, you only really need two options and you have a wide breadth of ways to establish or show character to a faction and to also be different.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I am more readily taking a storm guardian squad because they can take flamers and/or Melta weapons. Yeah they don't get the exarchs, but they are 10x cheaper and will get popped no matter what I do especially for their low wound count.

2.3 point Storm Guardians, with special weapons equipped? I'm calling shenanigans...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For Fire Dragons? Maybe just optional fire between Melta and Flamer settings?

Basically an Aeldari version of the Pyroclasts that the Salamanders have in 30k. I could see that.

I think we might able to wrangle ‘dual settings’ for most Aspects, come to think of it?

Give Dark Reapers back Krak and Plasma missiles. None of this middle of road, one shot kills little nonsense.

Warp Spiders? Standard fire setting, and perhaps something to represent a wide spray of monofilament wire being a really dangerous thing to leave floating around the battlefield (reduce/prevent movement?)

Banshess? They wouldn’t be the first unit to have a choice between precision (standard number of attacks, higher damage) and Flail Wildly (increases attacks for lower per-hit damage)

Dire Avengers? Not sure.

Striking Scorpions? Not sure

Shining Spears? Perhaps a concentrated fire option for their lances, reducing them to a single shot for the unit, but increasing S and D for each contributing model?

Swooping Hawks? Not sure.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I am more readily taking a storm guardian squad because they can take flamers and/or Melta weapons. Yeah they don't get the exarchs, but they are 10x cheaper and will get popped no matter what I do especially for their low wound count.

2.3 point Storm Guardians, with special weapons equipped? I'm calling shenanigans...

Yes 9pts each... so a squad of 8 is 92 pts for 2 fusion guns and 6 storm guardians... so 23 pts less than a firedragon squad. (With only five models) or 38 points if you take a fire pike. You only get 2 fusion guns, but you get more utility.

You will find that GW suddenly gets all super conservative when it comes to xenos.

Like 3rd edition's Fire Dragons. The thought of a squad of 12" S8 meltagun wielding Fire Dragons was so concerning they lowered the S to 6 for fear of them being overpowered.. Yet now a squad of Primaris Marines each wielding 24" melta rifles that outperform the Exarch's Firepike? Yeah sure whatever.

Not sure comparing a 9th Ed Codex to a 3rd one is terribly fair my dude.

I do get where you’re coming from though. Craftworlds in particular have fallen far behind, despite canonically having more sophisticated weapons.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think we might able to wrangle ‘dual settings’ for most Aspects, come to think of it?

Give Dark Reapers back Krak and Plasma missiles. None of this middle of road, one shot kills little nonsense.

Warp Spiders? Standard fire setting, and perhaps something to represent a wide spray of monofilament wire being a really dangerous thing to leave floating around the battlefield (reduce/prevent movement?)

Banshess? They wouldn’t be the first unit to have a choice between precision (standard number of attacks, higher damage) and Flail Wildly (increases attacks for lower per-hit damage)

Dire Avengers? Not sure.

Striking Scorpions? Not sure

Shining Spears? Perhaps a concentrated fire option for their lances, reducing them to a single shot for the unit, but increasing S and D for each contributing model?

Swooping Hawks? Not sure.

Dire Avengers used to have a close combat option. Allow them all to take like defensive options of some kind so they have shields. And can hold the line... Cause I don't know Eldar using shields sounds really cool.

Strikin Scorpions could easily be the hunter variant where they hunt down armored variants. While Their other form is essentially for getting as many attacks as possible.

Howling Banshees, they already have something you can have one as war dancers (two blades - anti-armor and CC lots of attacks) and a spear variant which gives them (anti armor less attacks a ton of Damage
/ single target)

Swooping Hawks - Two options, infantry killer, light vehcile killer one is a focused beam, one is a scatter random shot.

Warp Spiders, give them close combat options as one of the choices so they ALL can go into close combat and akin to Terminators with lightning claws OR terminator squad with storm bolters. They are deep strike masters let them be.

We could also add more Aspects like the Swirling Blades Aspect could be an Assassin Temple of the Eldar based who just deal exclusively with killing off characters and have two variants one for monsters one for single model characters.

Like there are tons of ways to make the eldar interesting and that is some ways.

I agree on dark reapers being able to choose one of two options.

something that was done before is that different aspects had different armor saves. From +3 Armor Saves on Warp Spiders, and Striking Scorpions to the Howling banshees and Dire Avengers only have a +4 armor save. Striking scorpions were slower but had more surviability.

Iracundus wrote:
You will find that GW suddenly gets all super conservative when it comes to xenos.

Like 3rd edition's Fire Dragons. The thought of a squad of 12" S8 meltagun wielding Fire Dragons was so concerning they lowered the S to 6 for fear of them being overpowered.. Yet now a squad of Primaris Marines each wielding 24" melta rifles that outperform the Exarch's Firepike? Yeah sure whatever.

I believe the Fusion gun thing was for AT reasons, as the 2nd ed Meltagun wasn't very good at penetrating vehicles. At least Fusion Guns were given S8 in 4th ed.

Eradicators remain dumb though, agreed.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
You will find that GW suddenly gets all super conservative when it comes to xenos.

Like 3rd edition's Fire Dragons. The thought of a squad of 12" S8 meltagun wielding Fire Dragons was so concerning they lowered the S to 6 for fear of them being overpowered.. Yet now a squad of Primaris Marines each wielding 24" melta rifles that outperform the Exarch's Firepike? Yeah sure whatever.

I believe the Fusion gun thing was for AT reasons, as the 2nd ed Meltagun wasn't very good at penetrating vehicles. At least Fusion Guns were given S8 in 4th ed.

Eradicators remain dumb though, agreed.

Eradicators are probably the worst addition to 40k I've seen in a while. They shouldn't at all be that stronge. I was strongly hoping eradicators were a minigun variant of Aggressors... But feth me I guess.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
You will find that GW suddenly gets all super conservative when it comes to xenos.

Like 3rd edition's Fire Dragons. The thought of a squad of 12" S8 meltagun wielding Fire Dragons was so concerning they lowered the S to 6 for fear of them being overpowered.. Yet now a squad of Primaris Marines each wielding 24" melta rifles that outperform the Exarch's Firepike? Yeah sure whatever.

I believe the Fusion gun thing was for AT reasons, as the 2nd ed Meltagun wasn't very good at penetrating vehicles. At least Fusion Guns were given S8 in 4th ed.

Eradicators remain dumb though, agreed.

Eradicators are probably the worst addition to 40k I've seen in a while. They shouldn't at all be that stronge. I was strongly hoping eradicators were a minigun variant of Aggressors... But feth me I guess.

Well if they're anything like Aggressors, they'll get nerfed in the following edition after everyone bought the models.