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Hey Dakka!

Ok, this is a bit of a general query I want to throw out there.

With my Iyanden wraithguard army, I tend to play very conservatively, i.e out of sight, and trying to evade shots. This has led to a few people commenting that i'm "powergaming", which I don't really agree with. It's been said that because i'm employing such "cheesy" tactics to win, that im a WAAC player. Some people have also taken exception that I do this in friendly games, saying that I shoudln't be going to such lengths to win in a casual game. Is this right? Personally, I justify it by saying that because its a small army, I have to play conservatively (and sometimes sneakily) to avoid getting caned.

Anyone else got opinions on this they'd like to contribute?

It sounds like you're using a tactic thats effective, and they dislike it since they cannot win easily.

Ignore it, if they can't see all you're doing is taking steps to having a fighting chance at winning they need to rethink how bad their army/strategies are.

Also you are ELDAR! I mean, I don't even blink an eye lid if I find I can't see half the army and the other half has sped away faster than I can roll a D6, its what your chosen army does.

So your army has a tactic?

If people have a problem with that they have to choices:

A) Suck it.
B) Rethink their own tactics.

Simple, No?

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:It sounds like you're using a tactic thats effective, and they dislike it since they cannot win easily.

Ignore it, if they can't see all you're doing is taking steps to having a fighting chance at winning they need to rethink how bad their army/strategies are.

Also you are ELDAR! I mean, I don't even blink an eye lid if I find I can't see half the army and the other half has sped away faster than I can roll a D6, its what your chosen army does.

I heartily agree. The point is too have fun and try too win, that and be a gracious loser. WAAC players are not fun too play against but your not one, the aim is too win so you try too and have fun trying too. Then be pleased for the other player, WAAC players should find another game.

Do you play the entire 2.5k ? I would not say you are power gaming,playing from cover to cover and avoiding LOS are common sense,are they not ? I do not know you lists,but maybe more transports and warlocks to stop any wraith sight issues and ease speed of movement.Or a guardian screen to give them a cover save.

To give you more info - its a 1750 list im trying to practise with for October GT. It has:

Eldrad

10 Wraithguard w/Seer, Spear, Conceal
10 Wraithguard w/Seer, Spear, Conceal

5 Wraithguard w/ Warlock, Conceal
Wave Serpent w/Twin Linked Bright Lance

Wraithlord w/Wraithsword

Wraithlord w/Wraithsword + Bright Lance

Wraithlord w/Bright Lance + EML

Basically my strategy in KP is to try and hold back out of sight and in cover, and take pot shots with my long range guns. Then when the choppy stuff moves up, I try to blast it with my Wraithcannons. The Wraithlords are there to help out in combat as well if needed.

In Objective based games, I camp one unit on an objective (sometimes with a lord babysitter), and then just march up trying to contest/blast through other objectives.

(There's obviously more to it than that! But thats a high level description.)

Nice list.As i said,the way that you play should not attract such calls of power gaming and cheese.Its perfectly fine,its the eldar way.

Okay. So. I have this same problem with my Tau. I spread my Kroot out, 1.5-2" apart, to screen my static firebase with cover saves.

Nooooooo I'm a "Powergamer" for doing this.

If your friends aren't good enough to deal with a tactic you are employing, they should look into better tactics/listing. Chances are, their armies aren't as competetive as they could be and/or their tactics could use some review.

After all... Eldar aren't a leafblower list. They have weaknesses. If you were running 6 razorbacks with 5 marines + missile launcher.... I mean then maybe they could complain.

Meh any kind of legal tactic isn't "unfair" in my book.

You're also fighting like the Eldar are supposed to fight, so even more reason for it to be fine.

I'm just astonished how childish some people seem to be.

Next thing you know, it will be "powergaming" if your army actually shoots at the enemy.

Luckily I have never met this kind of person.

I once had a couple of players complain at me for 'being unsportsmanlike' for jumping my Crisis Teams back behind cover after shooting.

"Oh my god, Tau running away again? Why are you playing like that?"

Sorry. Should I leave them there for your Assault Terminators to charge? Great, no problem.

liam0404 wrote:To give you more info - its a 1750 list im trying to practise with for October GT. It has:

Eldrad

10 Wraithguard w/Seer, Spear, Conceal
10 Wraithguard w/Seer, Spear, Conceal

5 Wraithguard w/ Warlock, Conceal
Wave Serpent w/Twin Linked Bright Lance

Wraithlord w/Wraithsword

Wraithlord w/Wraithsword + Bright Lance

Wraithlord w/Bright Lance + EML

Basically my strategy in KP is to try and hold back out of sight and in cover, and take pot shots with my long range guns. Then when the choppy stuff moves up, I try to blast it with my Wraithcannons. The Wraithlords are there to help out in combat as well if needed.

In Objective based games, I camp one unit on an objective (sometimes with a lord babysitter), and then just march up trying to contest/blast through other objectives.

(There's obviously more to it than that! But thats a high level description.)

I've seen this list before. Its not actually that scary, so if they are complaining about it, it is they who need to adjust (and are engaging in WAAC play, after all, if they can't win on the table, a WAAC player will try to politic their way to victory).

When I pointed it up with AB, I came up 3 points over. Is both big squads supposed to have a spear on their warlock? I'm getting 399 for each big squad, and since that is the only non divisable by 5 units, that is the only place I can think where there is issue. So I think you can only have one spear in the list. Since it is short ranges, you might as well put it with the unit that has the transport.

You're right, I typed that from memory, my bad. Minus 1 singing spear and that's the list, sorry for the confusion.

It sounds like your just playing tactically to me not cheesily.

I mean if you were being OMGZ WTF about every single LOS then perhapse they have a point but it doesnt sound it.


Its possibly because its an all wraithguard list, I rolled out one @ my local vets night and people were sucking their teeth about it.

liam0404 wrote:Hey Dakka!

Ok, this is a bit of a general query I want to throw out there.

With my Iyanden wraithguard army, I tend to play very conservatively, i.e out of sight, and trying to evade shots. This has led to a few people commenting that i'm "powergaming", which I don't really agree with. It's been said that because i'm employing such "cheesy" tactics to win, that im a WAAC player. Some people have also taken exception that I do this in friendly games, saying that I shoudln't be going to such lengths to win in a casual game. Is this right? Personally, I justify it by saying that because its a small army, I have to play conservatively (and sometimes sneakily) to avoid getting caned.

Anyone else got opinions on this they'd like to contribute?

So, just to get this right - you have a list largely composed of things that most people say are rubbish and people are complaining because you try to play well with them?

Playing a friendly game doesn't generally mean "have everything rush forward and roll lots of dice". Although, there are some people that think it does...

Rule #1 dont be a dick.
Based on the OP he is following rule 1.
His opponents just need to rethink there tactics.

Id second that one. Be friendly, polite, easy going and its all usually good!

This thought occurs to me a lot whenever I see people online (or in real life) discussing these disagreements over games of warhammer:

all games played have a sort of implicit contract between the players. For some pairs it may be 'we will both try and win, within every letter of the rules' and for some it may be 'we will charge our models around, chuck dice and hope fun things happen'. An example: I would always remove the closest models to my enemy's units if I was shot prior to an assault. My regular opponents expect this sort of play, and know not to fall into the trap - if they forgot, and did give me an escape from assault, they'd know it was their own fault. Some people, in my experience, would be in the same situation and say I was abusing the spirit of the game.

The key to a good game is to make sure you're on the same level as your opponent. Not saying you have to conform to his expectations, or vice versa, but it's possible for two perfectly reasonable people to not enjoy playing each other because they have different expectations.

All that said, if your opponent complained in those words, maybe he is just a sad bastard who wants to win but doesn't want to be challenged by any good tactics! Try explaining how and why you are playing to him, and give him the option to either step up to it or stop complaining.

WAAC players tend to abuse loopholes in rules and other shenanigans, hence why its "at all costs". Tactics, especially one used to make a themed army viable, is a completely different pot of fish. What else does he expect of you? Walk straight up to his guns and stand still?

So you played an eldar army and used it to win by trying not to get shot up before the appropriate time?

Is there a problem here officer?

Melissia wrote:So you played an eldar army and used its mobility to win?

Is there a problem here officer?

Hah, you'd think it would be acceptable to play that way wouldnt you?

I would, but then I know some people that got upset over me using Acts of Faith, claiming that by following the rules EXACTLY as laid out in my codex I was cheating and breaking the rules of the game.

Mind you, people who say that are worthless, and I ignore them. And no, I do not apologize if that offends anyone. I hope it does offend someone, if you hold that viewpoint you deserve to be offended.

I know, its crazy. To touch on a point Scott made earlier:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Playing a friendly game doesn't generally mean "have everything rush forward and roll lots of dice". Although, there are some people that think it does...

This reminds me of another game I played a while back. I was using my Templars against BA. I announced at the start of the game that I was reserving everything - and the profanities were off the scale. "Why are you doing that? Thats so gay. I can't believe youre doing that!"

It's like people expect you to switch off your brain during a friendly game.

Yeah, pretty much what everyone else said. I play Eldar too. They are a finesse army and need to restrict the amount of damage they take

Honestly, if you're doing anything but walking forward and shooting, you're a powergamer, and you have no place playing in friendly games.

In addition, it also makes you a communist.

Dr_Wasabi wrote:Honestly, if you're doing anything but walking forward and shooting, you're a powergamer, and you have no place playing in friendly games.

In addition, it also makes you a communist.

Don't forget "Eater of Children" and "Destroyer of Cuddly Things"!

Luckily alot of people I play have got used to my acts of faith lol...they are so useful especially when facing tons of ap 1/2 weapons!

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:WAAC players tend to abuse loopholes in rules and other shenanigans, hence why its "at all costs". Tactics, especially one used to make a themed army viable, is a completely different pot of fish. What else does he expect of you? Walk straight up to his guns and stand still?

That is cheats you're talking about.

There is no such thing as a WAAC player. There are people who like to play the hardest game possible within the codex and rules. There are people who just want a fun game and are more interested in the scenario and narrative.

Then there are people who just want to throw a few dice and see the enemy models go away.

Then there are people who are both one AND two!

Playing to win doesn't mean playing an unfluffy game.

I was in a trny yesterday against an average player. He had 2 Librarians on the table. I play Eldar.

1st turn I fortune my seer council, and I measure to see if I am 24" away so I can't be hooded. I am away and I do my psychic stuff.

I even mention this to him.

I realize now that it is not my option to make that measurement, but it was more a courtesy than anything else, because I expected to get hooded all game.

2nd turn, I am definantly inside 24", but he doesn't roll for the hood. I don't say anything, and feel like I got away with one.

3rd turn, he doesn't roll.

4th turn, same thing, and at this time I start to feel guilty because my fortuned counsel is tearing him up. So now I think I ought to say something, but he seems like the type of guy that would really beat himself up for not remembering his hood rolls. So I never said anything.

Both of us had lost badly in the 1st round of the trny, so there really wasn't anything to play for prizewise.

What would you have done?