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So we all more or less like the 8th edition ruleset, but undoubtedly there are things in there you would change. My biggest gripe would probably be about how weak cavalry can be and how spears are inferior for almost all combat units except like High Elves.

Here's my proposed rule changes for 8th edition:

Infantry blocks do not get their rank bonus against charging cavalry, as it's hard to keep your lines when thousands of pounds of steel and horseflesh crash into them.
Infantry blocks with spears DO get to count their rank bonus, because it's hard to charge into a wall of pointy sticks.

This would have the dual effect of making cavalry not blow, and let me use my spear-armed rats properly (as opposed to mixing them into sword&shield units as extra bodies).

What do you folks think of this idea, and what are your proposed changes to 8th?

I wasn't aware we all 'more or less like the 8th edition ruleset', in fact quite the opposite. If you look at this sub forum you will find plenty of threads from experienced players decrying the latest rules...

Eh, ranked up infantry is actually a rather good tactic historically against cavalry. Really you should have to pass a leadership test whenever you are charged by a sufficiently big unit of cav, most heavy cav was used to shock the enemy out of formation before running them down. That said, Cav should really get impact hits when they charge home, and against spears the impact hits should be redirected back towards them if they charged the spears from the front. : /

filbert wrote:I wasn't aware we all 'more or less like the 8th edition ruleset', in fact quite the opposite. If you look at this sub forum you will find plenty of threads from experienced players decrying the latest rules...

Random magic, random charge ranges, premeasure everything, steadfast...8th is pretty bad...

Meh, I enjoy 8th more than 7th. My gripes are with magic (aka 'IF auto-kill spell FTW LOL!!1'), undercosted / overpowered artillery and the lack of in-built restrictions on deathstar crap (or put another way, no half points, no points for fleeing units, etc).

- Salvage

Boss Salvage wrote:Meh, I enjoy 8th more than 7th. My gripes are with magic (aka 'IF auto-kill spell FTW LOL!!1'), undercosted / overpowered artillery and the lack of in-built restrictions on deathstar crap (or put another way, no half points, no points for fleeing units, etc).

- Salvage

QFFT.

Boss Salvage wrote:Meh, I enjoy 8th more than 7th. My gripes are with magic (aka 'IF auto-kill spell FTW LOL!!1'), undercosted / overpowered artillery and the lack of in-built restrictions on deathstar crap (or put another way, no half points, no points for fleeing units, etc).

- Salvage

Yeah, the sniper cannons are another thing that I seriously dislike. There should be some kind of lateral deviation for the shot so you're not unerringly tagging whatever you want in the face if the bounce is adequate.

But overall, I get the impression that people enjoy 8th edition. 7th was dead with Daemons anyway.

Boss Salvage has nailed the problems.

I'm obliged by the dudes at my shop to also note how unfulfilling flanking is in this edition, since steadfast can't be disrupted and outmaneuvering your opponent rarely pays off any more, besides getting the unit match ups that favor you. Then again I play skaven, and getting flanked still sucks

- Salvage

Magic's too powerful. Monsters too weak. Siege weapons too powerful (but at least limited in #). Steadfast + Inspiring Pressence + BSB means LD doesn't seem to mean that much.

Models and books iz expensive.

OH MAN! How could I forget such a huge target for my hate ray? I loathe the rule that you must use your general's LD if within Inspiring Presence range. Like, hate it with all of my body. Not just because people can use it to D&D toolbag your army by nerfing the general, but that the general can nerf your monsters all by his own - an HPA is LD8 but a warlord is LD7, a giant is LD10 but a chaos lord is LD9, etc. What an obviously stupid rule, a unit should always just use the highest LD available to it.

- Salvage

Magic is ridiculous.

Hordes are ridiculous (30 wide of 25mm base = 1 foot wide brick.

It's about slamming blocks of 'moar minis' together before they get blown apart by Overpowered magic. It sucks. 40k has actually surpassed it as the better game.

So I echo that we do not all 'more or less' like 8th edition.

filbert wrote:I wasn't aware we all 'more or less like the 8th edition ruleset', in fact quite the opposite. If you look at this sub forum you will find plenty of threads from experienced players decrying the latest rules...

and there are also those (like me, player since 1998) who thinks 8th is great....

No, I do not agree with the removal of the rank bonus by cavalry.....although an initiative bonus depending on the weapons (ie lances) would have been a good idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:

filbert wrote:I wasn't aware we all 'more or less like the 8th edition ruleset', in fact quite the opposite. If you look at this sub forum you will find plenty of threads from experienced players decrying the latest rules...

Random magic, random charge ranges, premeasure everything, steadfast...8th is pretty bad...

In other words, you are unable to adjust to the new game..yes 8th is a new game from 7th...fair enough, you are not alone there...

BUT for others it's not bad, it's just new....and a refreshing change from the stagnation of 7th....

The changes I would like to see.

1) MR giving saves to check or die spells
2) Flanking with ranked unit removing steadfast
3) Warmachine costs reflecting their damage output

Beyond that I really don't think it is that bad of a system.

I don't have my book on me, but I don't remember the BRB saying you MUST use the general's leadership if within range.

BRB 107, under the 'Inspiring Presence' rule. NO ME GUSTA.

- Salvage

I always tell people when explaining Warhammer that 40k is like Starcraft and fantasy plays like the Total War games, and I agree when cavalry, especially heavy cavalry hits a unit bodies go flying. And I agree with you on the spears, loved playing as Germania during Rome with those long spears/pikes totally negated cavalry. Having said that I think a compromise would be in order. If taking a cav charge from the front it is not as effective as taking a charge in the flank. Maybe like the warp fire thrower a charge in the flank causes a panic test. But there needs to be some kind of balance in the cavalry as some armies have no access to them, mainly mine Ogres, Dwarfs and Skaven

Few things I would like to see changed...

Saves on the super spells, OR at least get LoS rolls for your characters. I honestly dont have a huge issue with magic in this edition, very rarely has a super spell gone off more then once a game (with the exception of one skaven player last GT who hit me with curse 3 turns in a row). I prefer it to 7th, where casters struggled to get their points back.

Also with having to kill whole units, and people running units 50+ strong at times, I think the are necessary, but you shouldnt be able to snipe characters.


Some way to break steadfast other then, lol I have more ranks.... when there are models that cost 2-3 points each, its very very difficult for some armies to break steadfast on those units, it just cant be done.
Personally in my completely unbiased brett player opinion, I think if you get smashed in the flank with cavalry that can disrupt ranks you should lose steadfast. Historically cavalry ramming into your flanks/rear was devastating... This would help buff cavalry, that is pretty weak this edition.

Also lances should give devastating charge/killing blow/impact hits on the charge. (not all of them, just one)

Other then that I am extremely happy with 8th edition.

Eh, havn't played too many games of 8th, but the magic phase can be a bit ridiculous depending on what army you're facing. I personally like hordes with steadfast, though to balance it out I would rather have that when a unit that can disrupt charges your flank or rear, you subtract the unit count of the charging unit from the unit that is attempting for steadfast. Yes flank charges hurt, but a wee number of knights charging the flank of a block of 200 goblins should not shatter them on impact.

Yeah as much as I hate steadfast, its a necessary evil...

Most of us remember the days of a bloodthirster charging a unit of 30ish and running them off the board...

I think with Cavalry charges I would prefer a change like +2 to combat res instead of the normal +1 for charging.

Just seems easier.

I agree, spears are under powered in Warhammer.
I am not sure how to make them better though, +1 strength when recieving a Cav/Monster charge is an oldie but a goody.

Laser-guided artillery and win-button magic is far more of a problem, IMO.

Although, I know a Brettonia player who has given up his army until either 9th comes out or they fix the cavalry rules.

Yeah, as an Ogre player my games have come to my deathstar making across the field and owning my opponent in combat or being blasted to smithereens (ala Yosemite Sam) by shooting/ ungodly accurate cannons/ uber spells.

I have yet to face cannons without losing 3-4 Ogres per turn per cannon. Spells....yeah Runemaw doesn't help vs. the big spells anyway so I take the Greatskull and pray to kill his wizard(s) off the first turn.

I've gone back to 40k for a while.

I do just fine with bretts, You just have to change the playstyle. No more double charge break unit lolz!

Artillery in competitive settings was already laser guided, I could pick a spot on a table and hit within an inch or two of it 99% of the time.

Magic is nasty, but its better than it was in 7th edition tbh... 7th edition magic was pretty sad.

ShivanAngel wrote:Artillery in competitive settings was already laser guided, I could pick a spot on a table and hit within an inch or two of it 99% of the time.

Agreed, although I'd say it was more anyone with a good eye for distances than just competitive settings.

All 8th did was make it easier for people who couldn't tell 1 inch from 2 without a ruler.

agnosto wrote:I have yet to face cannons without losing 3-4 Ogres per turn per cannon.

That is way outside the curve of "things likely to happen". The bounce has to be just right, and each ogre, sequentially must be wounded and then killed to keep going. I'm usually happy if I manage to bag two ogres with a single shot...

Yeah and there were tricks to artillery shooting...

Knowing exactly how big your movement trays are, knowing how far your opponent moved during the movement phase and how far away he was when he deployed. PSeudo measuring distances during the magic/movement phase...

It wasnt that hard tbh.

Red_Zeke wrote:

agnosto wrote:I have yet to face cannons without losing 3-4 Ogres per turn per cannon.

That is way outside the curve of "things likely to happen". The bounce has to be just right, and each ogre, sequentially must be wounded and then killed to keep going. I'm usually happy if I manage to bag two ogres with a single shot...

Yeah, my buddy rolls like a god on the bounce, the dirty so and so.

Salvage has it right on with this downer in the current ruleset:

Salvage wrote:(or put another way, no half points, no points for fleeing units, etc)

And the fruitlessness of flanking. I'd love for those two things to be switched up... I don't think steadfast should be lost for flanking, but there should be some more incentive to get the flank/rear.

agnosto wrote:yeah Runemaw doesn't help vs. the big spells anyway so I take the Greatskull and pray to kill his wizard(s) off the first turn.

Why doesn't Runemaw work, just out of interest?