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Folks,
I'm just keen on really canvassing your oppinions on this - I'm looking at some of the Phoenix lords and find it worrying how most don't have Invunrable saves, especially since they only have 3 Wounds and T4. I guess I'm mainly looking at Karandras here; with the prospect of up to 7 Powerfist attacks, it's very tantalising - but against the HQ units these days, will he live long enough to hit out?

CC characters need a ++ save.
Eternal warrior on lower toughness ones is also needed alot of the time.

Since he will have a fist, you will be going last, so he will take alot of damage before he even gets a turn.
Things like power weapons are bad news, but power fists mean dead characters.


Ill use sanguinor as an example:

2+ save.
3++ save.
Eternal warrior.
Lack of IC rule hurts him though.



If you are taking a character with poor saves then make sure he has a unit that can help him.
You need them to soak the wounds and keep him alive.

well they do have EW, which helps a lot. It will take 3 wounds to stop them, no lucky force weapon or powerfist.

Think about CSM, they have some beastly characters in CC but most only have a 5++. How many times does a 5++ save you?

On the other hand, Phoenix lords do suck a lot. No invunerable is a big reason why but mainly its because they are so expensive and just not killy enough.


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Jackal wrote:
Ill use sanguinor as an example:

2+ save.
3++ save.
Eternal warrior.
Lack of IC rule hurts him though.

The sanguinor and mephisto are MC without the extra D6 for armor penetration. They are that good in CC precisely because they do not have IC. If they did they would be the best units in the game and required for every competitive army out there.

Close combat characters do not require an invulnerable save for close combat, but they *do* require a close combat squad.

As you move, fleet, prepare to assault, it takes special consideration on IC placement in comparison to the rest of your squad so that he will get into base contact and be able to make swings, but such that only 1-2 models will be able to swing back.

My Destroyer Lord for example - despite having a 4+ invulnerable save, he is the lynchpin in my army. I don't take a phylactory on him either, so if he goes down....no rez orb for anyone, poof. And yet my wraiths are my assault wing in my Necron army, and will assault ANYTHING. They key is wrapping my wraiths around an enemy unit, then putting the lord's unit in so that he's only touching one model, no one can pile into him - preferably no one can be engaged with him because they're in base elsewhere....and most preferably, that in case combat lasts a turn, he's positioned where nothing else can charge into the combat and get into base with him.

Space Marine players are going to tell you that you need an invulnerable save for close combat. Well, it doesn't take rocket science to play an Imperium codex. Don't apply their plodding methodology to a codex that relies on finesse and flourish. Take your 7 powerfist attacks on the charge (Hello Ghazghkull Thraka), and practice your positioning in conjunction with an assault unit. Harlequins, banshees, maybe striking scorpions....something you can preferably assault into powerweapons *first* to engage them away from your IC, and who will either strike first and potentially kill, or have their own invul save to ward off attacks.

So your wraiths will assault anything dash?
Isnt that a tad counter-productive against a wolf-star or paladin-star?
surely there has to be a limit in which it would become more of a risk to assault it than it would to simply have it shot to death?

As with ++ saves, im not just a marine player, so lay off the stereotypes dash.
With nids tyrants suffer badly, even being buffed and with a shield.
Primes generally keep hidden in a unit, but again, no extra save means 1 attack can finish them, or atleast bypass armour.
Swarmlord on the other hand is nice for combat, his ++ helps cement this in place and keep him going.

Daemons are pointless getting into as every character has a ++ and EW.





Edit:

The sanguinor and mephisto are MC without the extra D6 for armor penetration. They are that good in CC precisely because they do not have IC. If they did they would be the best units in the game and required for every competitive army out there.

Mephiston does not have a ++ save, which is why i refuse to use him.
Granted you can cover hop / hide behind a transport / use one, but its just an annoyance.
Simply slap him about with AP1-2 or even things like power blobs and he dies.

Dont get your last bit 0_o
They are good in CC because they dont have it?
Yet having it would make them even better?

Very interesting thoughts there Dashofpepper - I confess my train of thought was more in line with Jackal.

My thoughts were about using Karandras with a Guardian Storm squad and Fortune & Guide when it counts; greatly allowing the squad the ability to punch above their weight - with 1) an anti-tank unit of Guided Singing Spear & Fusion Guns, and with Stealth and Conceal, a re-rollable 4+ cover save, and 2) decent close combat in the form of a bodyguard for Karandras.

Plus I have the option of outflanking with Karandras on his own if I come across any ill-prepared gunline armies...

Not to diverge from this discussion too much, but how does Karandras' Fearless charactistic fit with the Guardian squad? Does he loose it? And in the case of a sweeping assault, does he use his or the Guardians initiave?

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:Very interesting thoughts there Dashofpepper - I confess my train of thought was more in line with Jackal.

My thoughts were about using Karandras with a Guardian Storm squad and Fortune & Guide when it counts; greatly allowing the squad the ability to punch above their weight - with 1) an anti-tank unit of Guided Singing Spear & Fusion Guns, and with Stealth and Conceal, a re-rollable 4+ cover save, and 2) decent close combat in the form of a bodyguard for Karandras.

Plus I have the option of outflanking with Karandras on his own if I come across any ill-prepared gunline armies...

Not to diverge from this discussion too much, but how does Karandras' Fearless charactistic fit with the Guardian squad? Does he loose it? And in the case of a sweeping assault, does he use his or the Guardians initiave?

a 200+ point HQ + a guardian storm squad(100pts?+) is kinda beastly, you also are going to put 2 psykic powers on it using the 150+pt farseer for that turn. Thats almost 500 points. I doubt it could punch above their weight against any real CC squad.

Karandras on his own is a horrible idea. He will get shot to pieces or assaulted by something that can do a few power weapon wounds before he strikes. If you want an outflanking force, take some SS. For 200+ points you can have a very nasty squad. Of course on foot their threat range is rather pathetic.


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Jackal wrote:
Mephiston does not have a ++ save, which is why i refuse to use him.
Granted you can cover hop / hide behind a transport / use one, but its just an annoyance.
Simply slap him about with AP1-2 or even things like power blobs and he dies.

Dont get your last bit 0_o
They are good in CC because they dont have it?
Yet having it would make them even better?

he has T6 and what 5 wounds? He doenst fear anything but huskblades and force weapons.
I would much rather have T6 and 5W than T4, 3-4W and a 4++ like most other marine character.

If mephy was an IC the game would be broken. He would be OP. there would be no reason to play anything other than BA and field any HQ but Mephy.

Granted T6 helps to no end against small arms compared to a 4++.
However, you dont shoot meph with small arms.
AP 1-2 will be hitting him, and T6 doesent make alot of difference to it.

Oh too true.
I dont doubt for 1 min that him having IC would be very nasty, but still able to kill him.
He would simply be more like draigo, but a tad more nasty.




Edit: Just found this thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357862.page

Note, the 1st 2 posts straight away refer to no Inv. save making him a bad character.
Points are an issue aswell, but the inv is still an issue for quite a few people.

Also, playing using dash's ideas of moving to an advantaged area of the combat would work even better for him. (model in question)
so it would be interesting to see if that would make up for the lack of a ++ save.

Jackal:

Yes, my wraiths will assault anything - including Paladin and wolf-stars. I don't *have* any shooting in my Necron army aside from Particle Whips; the obligatory two troop choices hide the entire game to avoid phase out, and the Particle Whips are usually too busy teleporting wraiths around the field to shoot.

++ saves...*is* a marine mentality.

OP: You need one or multiple of four things in close combat to be an effective close combat unit.

1. The Survivability of either good armour saves or Invulnerable saves
2. Stats to shrug off damage
3. Volume of Attacks to get through enemy saves.
4. Quality of Attacks

Every close combat "unit" has at least one of those things, and "good" close combat units have two of them; no one really has three. #1 isn't mandatory - but picking two others are.

Some examples from my own armies.

Deceiver: #2 and #4. He still has to be careful about what he assaults because if I run into something with #3 and #4 together, I'm in trouble. Fortunately, those two are rarely paired in any unit. He's T8, so only STR5+ can wound him - so I avoid things that have a lot of STR5+ attacks - and obviously things that can cause instant death since he doesn't have Eternal Warrior. I discovered the other day that Paladins aren't the threat I thought they would be. They're L1 psykers, so they can either cast Hammerhand to get to STR5, or they can activate their force weapons, but not both - so they can either wound me on 6+ with hammerhand and no force weapons, or they can not wound me at all.

Ork boyz: Orks have #3, and that's it. Lots and lots of #3. The hope in any game is that they have enough of #3 to make up for not having a second item on that list.

Wraiths: #1 and half of #4. 3+ Invul saves with a rez orb around to ignore ID, and generally two sets of WBB on a 4+ to get back into the fight again. STR6 attacks, but they aren't power weapons (until the next codex comes out anyway). While they have 4 attacks on the charge, they don't qualify for #3 because they only come in units of 3 max.

DE Wyches: #1 and #3. They head into combat with a 4++ and a 4+ FNP, and plenty of attacks on the charge that can be buffed in a variety of ways.

Tyranid MCs: #2, half of #1, half of #4. High strength, toughness, wound count, and power weapons.

If you want to take Karandras, you've got to pair him with something that maximizes his effectiveness in combat. If he has 7 powerfist attacks on the charge, he's personally pulling in a solid #3 and #4. However, those are at I1 for a powerfist, so you need to pair him up with something that counterbalances his own weakness - lack of #1 and #2. I don't know the Eldar codex well enough to comment, but if banshees (or are they harlequins?) have decent invulnerable saves and good initiative - it sounds like a match. Striking Scorpions, Guardian Storm Squad....evaluate how they complement Karandras so that you *get* to Initiative one unscathed - and ideally with only one enemy model in contact with Karandras at the start of the combat.

In regard to your other questions, he makes the unit fearless because of his own rule, and in a sweeping advance, you use the lowest base initiative in the unit to determine whether you get away or not. But if you're fearless, it would be irrelevant.

Dashofpepper's guide is excellent there, and I think I'm also going to use it for myself in the future!

Karandas has a 2+ save and scorpion have a 3+ save. If Karandas joins scorpions, they all become fearless, and only if he joins scorpions.

According to Dashofpepper, something with good saves and stats to shrug of damage is what you want for Karandas. Unfortunately, those never come together in an Eldar unit. Good stats (toughness) is rare.

Banshees are power weapon wielding initiative 10 4+ warriors. They may compliment Karandas well, but their saves and stats are terrible.

Harlequins have initiative 7 and can take pretty good attacks. Only a 5++ invulnerable though, cost more than banshees, and have a special rule allowing them to move fast through cover. Karandas makes this rule useless.

Imo, Karandas is best put with scorpions and best fighting GEQ. A 3+ save should satisfy #1, and scorpions have the str 4. An exarch with biting blade strikes first and up to str 7 depending on how well you hit. Remember that Karandas can always use his chainsword if he needs to kill a GEQ character first.

Unfortunately, there is no unit that can fully compliment Karandas, but if you don't want scorpions with him, I'd go for banshees, in a serpent

Thanks for the additional information Rogukiel.

Karandas doesn't *need* to join something with good saves and stats. Those can be replaced by volume of attacks, or quality of attacks at high initiative. Harlequins with a 5++ aren't bad because of the 5++ save, they're good because of I7 and hopefully power weapons?

There comes a point when you math-hammer out the results of 10 guys attacking you at WS4, STR4 with 3 attacks each and you making 3+ saves against them....vs 3-4 guys attacking you at WS4, STR4 with 3 attacks each and you making 5++ saves against them.

The best defense is a good offense. I'd rather kill most of an enemy unit before they get to hit me and then have bad saves in return than not kill many of them and have good saves in return. I don't like to math-hammer things, I just apply principles - but someone else is welcome to do the math there.

Anyway, that's my point. *good saves* being important is a space marine mentality, and shouldn't apply to Xenos codexes. The only exception: Necrons, the robot space marines, Legion II, struck from Imperial records. Everyone knows it.

If you want to take Karandas, go for it - use what Eldar makes available to you. Pair him up with a unit that can wtfpwn its way through most units before they get to swing back. Stick them in a wave serpent, move it flat out, fortune the wave serpent, and you have a second-turn ball of omgbadnews in your enemy's face.

Jackal:

Yes, my wraiths will assault anything - including Paladin and wolf-stars. I don't *have* any shooting in my Necron army aside from Particle Whips; the obligatory two troop choices hide the entire game to avoid phase out, and the Particle Whips are usually too busy teleporting wraiths around the field to shoot.

++ saves...*is* a marine mentality.

How would that even dent a unit of paladins?
WS4, S6, T4, 4 attacks on the charge.
The sheer lack of anything ignoring armour means your attacks generally get rendered useless.

Granted you can drag yourself out of combat then throw yourself back in for the extra attacks, but 12 attacks wont really so a great deal.

++ saves are not a marine mentality.
Considering the main units in your force have them, theres a start.
Daemons have them.
Infact, i think now there are only a few characters that lack them.
quite a few CC units even have them now.

Anyway, that's my point. *good saves* being important is a space marine mentality, and shouldn't apply to Xenos codexes. The only exception: Necrons, the robot space marines, Legion II, struck from Imperial records. Everyone knows it.

Any chance of your going into this a bit more please?
Not really sure how you came to this point.






OT: Karandas wise, i do agree though that saturation of attacks is the best bet with him.
Any chance to remove a threat before it strikes pretty much negates the need of a save.

The main problem is outside of combat though.
Granted you try and keep him in combat as much as you can, but outside of it his unit starts taking losses and he loses that ability to soak up firepower or even attacks.

Jackal wrote:
How would that even dent a unit of paladins?
WS4, S6, T4, 4 attacks on the charge.
The sheer lack of anything ignoring armour means your attacks generally get rendered useless.

I said that I *would* charge anything, which is not the same as charging the wrong targets. My wraiths don't *need* to charge paladins unless the entire army is made out of paladins - which I did run into the other day. Otherwise, I have the STR9 T8 Deceiver to charge paladins. 2+/5++ is meaningless, most of the unit gets instant-killed, they lose combat and run away, and my deceiver consolidates towards something else.

I *would* charge anything, because I have the mobility and survivability to get away with it. One of my favorite games ever - my wraithwing did a Turn1 turbo-boost 24" up the center of the field in front of a Spacewolf Longfang/Razorback spam army. He circled up on me, rapid fired everything into my nine wraiths...and at the end of it, I had the Destroyer Lord and 1 wraith left standing. Both the other wraith units WBBed into the first unit, the entire unit then teleported and WBBed a second time through a monolith, and voila - I had all nine wraiths back.

Wraiths aren't afraid of paladins - but they aren't the best tool to deal with paladins either. 40k is about the right application of force to the right targets.

I didnt know you ran a deciever in the list, which is why i was wondering how you would remove a threat like paladins.

Just out of curiosity, how did they do against paladins?
rumors have it you will be getting PW's on them soon.


No offence dash, but this isnt 40k - 101
Target priority and unit selection isnt a real issue here, as im not a mind reader and didnt know your list

Jackal wrote:He would simply be more like draigo, but a tad more nasty.

Dragio is nice, he would probably win a 1v1 with mephi although a lot of it comes down to him getting his force weapon activation past mephy's hood. the game isnt about 1v1 anyway.

initiative 7 >> Inititive 5
5 attacks 5 wounds >> 4 attacks 4 wounds
T6 Str6 >> T5 Str5
Str10vs all enemies(psy test) >> Str 10 vs psykers and daemons
plasma pistol > stormbolter
reroll all to hit and wound >> reroll 1 to hit.
fleet+wings>>termite armor, cannot pursue
mephy has a hood+++++

now dragio has a 3++ and EW which are golden. Is an IC whichi is awesome, and makes paladins troops. I dont much like paladins but its something.

giving mephi IC would make him signiffigantly better though, and being cheaper than dragio would be OP

They need one.

Jackal wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how did they do against paladins?
rumors have it you will be getting PW's on them soon.

It was a 2,000 point Draigo + Paladin list; HQ + 6 units of paladins and voila - 2k points.

It was capture and control.

At the end of the game I had warriors sitting on my objective, monoliths blocking his access to my objective, my wraiths (all three units) contesting his in stacked ranks so that he couldn't assault me off of it, and he had two paladin units left - Draigo's unit and a unit with two guys left down by my monoliths that would have gotten a charge on my second warrior squad if the game had gone another turn. The second warrior squad was blocking access to the first squad, which was on my objective. The Deceiver had one wound left (mostly to Psycannons), and on the last turn, he chose to shoot Draigo's squad at the Deceiver and assault him instead of going after a wraith unit - which would happily have taken the charge, hopefully all died, and then WBBed into another unit. He did one wound to the Deceiver, who made his 4+.

The game ended with me having lost a single wraith. On topic though...OP, take your bad boy. Beat the crap out of people with him. Just pair him up with some other lethality to make sure he gets to strike.

Just one bit of information on top of the rest here:

Karandras has Fleet, Scorpions do not. Of course, he's meant to lead a squad of them and provides Fearless to them, but he's probably better fielded with Banshees or Storm Guardians.

Well OP, as always in warhammer...it depends.

Are you swinging first?
Can you do a sufficient amount of damage that the target is crippled by the time they get to swing back?
Can you avoid being in BTB+2 inches of their hidden PF/PK/ETC?
Is your model tough enough to avoid being IDed by their attacks that strike back?
Is your weapon skill or toughness high enough that the odds of them hitting/wounding are low?
Do their attacks allow you to take an armor save?

Count up how many answers are "Yes" here. If you have a count of 6...then no, it probably doesn't matter at all. If you have a count of 0, then yes, you wan't to carry stormshields. One in each hand, and then tape one to your crotch guard, butt guard, and helmet. You need to be a one man testudo.

In the "Toughness/Invulnerable save by extension category"....

Dash`s setup is a perfect example, and from what I am gathering, he is charging in a very tough unit with a 3++ and chance to resurrect (And presumably with a res orb within 6 inches to keep them getting up in the face of power/force attacks) very, VERY tough to move...and then charging his lord in far enough away from the oppositions real CC threats (For example, hidden PFs.) that they cannot direct their attacks at him, and then smacking them in the face with a pointy bit that ignores armor AND invulnerable saves really hard.

This would be the same as charging a unit of TH/SS terminators at a tactical squad, and then charged a librarian (with no invulnerable save) into the same unit from the side opposite the powerfist sergeant so it cant ID the librarian. The only things that can swing at the librarian are one, perhaps two regular S4 attacks, but the librarian can inflict his full pain compliment on the squad. (This example isn't perfect, seeing as in addition to be a anvil/pinning in place unit, the TH/SS unit will annihilate the attacked squad more than likely.)

Dashofpepper wrote: Harlequins with a 5++ aren't bad because of the 5++ save, they're good because of I7 and hopefully power weapons?

Unfortunately not. Only the Troupe Master has the power weapon option. The best readily available weapon is the harlequin's kiss, but its a relatively expensive upgrade to field on a whole squad. Personally I would either field him with Banshees or Scorpions. I just think Karandas will slow down the Harlequins too much. Then again, if a shadowseer is taken, footslogging becomes much safer. Perhaps its worth the risk and points instead of the safety of a wave serpent?

Banshees will rip infantry to shreds with low strength power weapon attacks. Karandas comes behind and cleans up whats left.
With harlequins, it would be more about striking fast and hard, but you would have to be careful of power armoured opponents who may just shrug off most of the harlequins attacks.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Karandas doesn't *need* to join something with good saves and stats. Those can be replaced by volume of attacks, or quality of attacks at high initiative. Harlequins with a 5++ aren't bad because of the 5++ save, they're good because of I7 and hopefully power weapons?

They'd lose hit and run and thus be trapped in assault with whatever your opponent wanted for the rest of the game. Harlequins are terrible when they aren't charging.

I just dont think Karandas is very good as anything but a converted DE archon.


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I would argue he isnt good and wouldnt be much better with a ++ save.

I hate to limit the options even more about Karandras, but Pg 54 of the Eldar codex states that a phoenix lord can not be attached to an aspect warrior squad that is not their own. Meaning, No banshees for him, only Jain Zar can join the banshees. You could still do guardians or harlies, but his stealth rule is only conferred to scorpions.... so it would not stack with conceal if with the guardians. Harlequins are a decent idea, as the shadow seer would allow him to get across the field just fine, and their sheer number of attacks would allow them to thin the lines, but then why bring Karandras instead of someone to help the squad better? In short, Karandras is terrible =/ If you must field him, he's best with a unit of scorpions.

As for if they need invulns or not, my opinions is that ICs need SOMETHING to keep them alive. This doesn't mean it needs to be ++. As Dash said, stats, invulns, Eternal warrior, anything along those lines and then placement is key. Don't want to have your 200+ point character dying because he was paired off wrong lol

Sigh Dash said what I've been trying to tell people for years.

Amanax wrote:I hate to limit the options even more about Karandras, but Pg 54 of the Eldar codex states that a phoenix lord can not be attached to an aspect warrior squad that is not their own.

Argh, Eldar codex, though hast failed me again.

In any case, Karandas is better with scorpions than harlies