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HQ
-Shas'el Fireknife w/ TA & HWMT 97
2 Shas'vre Bodyguard Fireknives w/ TA 164
TOTAL 261

ELITES
-Bladestorms (3)
(Team Leader w/ TA) 189

-Deathrains (3)
(Team Leader w/ TA) 147
TOTAL 336

TROOPS
-Fire Warriors (12) 120
-Fire Warriors (12) 120
-Kroot Carnivores (14) 98
-Kroot Carnivores (14) 98
TOTAL 436

FAST ATTACK
-Pathfinders (8) w/ Devilfish APC 176
TOTAL 176

HEAVY SUPPORT
-Railhead w/ SMS 160

-Railhead w/ SMS 160

-Broadsides (3) w/ Adv. Stabilization System
(Team Leader w/ 2 S. Drones & Bonding Knife) 280
TOTAL 600

LIST TOTAL 1,809 POINTS


NOTES: USES OF THE 41 EXTRA POINTS
-Devilfish APC upgraded to Warfish APC
-3 Extra Kroot Carnivores; 2 to 1st, 1 to 2nd
TOTAL 41pts

-5 extra Kroot Carnivores; 3 to 1st, 2 to 2nd
TOTAL 35pts

-Any other ideas, feel free to shoot your ideas my way, I have an 1850pt tourney coming up soon.

get ride of the kroot MORE FIREWARRIORS

3 teams of 3 broadsides. and dont take bonding knives

you want melta or plasma on your battle suits.

thats all i really know for tau. when you get back from deployment. well get a game in for sure.

Hell yea dude!! Can't wait!

I hate only posting links instead of responding directly to people's lists, but I think it's ok here b/c your list is substantially similar to this other list I just critiqued.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/368188.page

But specific to your list:

First, your points are incorrect on the HQ. The actual HQ is only 87 points, so the whole unit is only 251. Other than that, it's great--you should take two units like that.

I don't know what a "bladestorm" is, and I generally recommend prefacing nicknames for suit load-outs with what they're actually kitted with. Then refer back to them by the nickname. Either way, I know it's not one of the two configurations that I generally endorse: the fireknife (plasma rifle + missile pod + multi-tracker) or the deathrain (TL missile pod + targeting array). Therefore, I recommend you drop it for a unit of deathrain suits. I only recommend running deathrains in the elite slot; I save the fireknives for the HQ slots. The reason is so all your suits can be BS4, which is important. Also, deathrains are cheaper than the "bladestorms," which is another reason why I recommend running only deathrains in the elite slot--they're the cheapest good suit you can buy. Finally, your deathrain number is off: a unit of crisis suits with TL missile pods + targeting array is 159 points.

As for your troops: fewer fire warriors, more kroot. Kroot hounds are statistically better than carnivores, and they're cheaper (just look at their stat lines and their point costs). I know they're a metal model, but if that's a problem, I suggest using regular wargs from the LOTR range as counts-as. Either way, I suggest running units of 10 kroot carnivores with b/w 5-8 hounds, depending on what's in the rest of your list. I generally recommend only 5 so you can more units in toto. Drop the fire warriors down to a single min-sized unit. Reserve them at the beginning of the game and hope they don't come in until the end of the game.

There's an alternative list that takes lots of fire warriors in devilfish, but I don't like it. I generally stick with kroot.

As for the fast attack choices, see the link I posted. But generally speaking, I recommend piranha over pathfinders. They fulfill different rolls, so it's not like one is better than the other, but piranha are cheaper, and that usually wins me over. Cheaper units = more units which = more guns which = win.

With piranha, you get free units of gun drones that you can use to meat shield your units and contest objectives and generally be a nuisance. After you disembark the gun drones, you want to move flat out with the piranha straight into the maneuvering lanes of your opponent's vehicles. This forces your opponent to deal with the piranha, or else they risk getting their parking lot melta'd. Even if they do kill the piranha, you've just placed rough (dangerous) terrain in front of their parking lot, so now they're got to roll a bunch of dice to make sure their vehicles don't get immobilized going through it. Finally, if the piranha actually live to the end of the game (they usually don't; most times they barely live past the first turn) you can move flat-out to contest enemy objectives.

As for your heavy support choices, again, I refer you to the link. Generally, however, I recommend running broadsides over hammerheads for the sole reason that you can fit in more railguns with broadsides. One hammer, properly outfitted, is literally twice the cost of a single broadside. When you can take twice the guns for the same price, I generally recommend you do so. Also, don't upgrade them with plasma rifles. It's a waste of points.

Plus, even if you keep the hammerheads, yours aren't outfitted the best they could be. Hammerheads are best kitted out with burst cannons, a multi-tracker (so you can shoot like a fast vehicle) and a d-pod (because it's too good not to take). That puts it at 165 points. Point-for-point, I've heard people call it the best MBT in the game. However, broadsides are just plain better for what they do--killing tanks. And since there are so many tanks running around these days, broadsides have gotten better and hammerheads have become sidelined. The hammerhead is really good at killing infantry, but that's what you have crisis suits for.

Taking into account the foregoing, here's what I recommend:

--HQ-- 1850/1850

1 Shas'el 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
--HW Multi-tracker x2

1 Shas'el 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
--HW Multi-tracker x2

--Elites--

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

--Troops--

6 Fire warriors 60

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
5 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
5 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
5 Kroot Hounds

--Fast Attack--

1 Piranha 75
-Fusion Blaster
-Disruption Pod
-Targeting Array

1 Piranha 75
-Fusion Blaster
-Disruption Pod
-Targeting Array

--Heavy Support--

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-A.S.S. x2
-Team Leader
-Target Lock

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-A.S.S. x2
-Team Leader
--Target Lock

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-A.S.S. x2
-Team Leader

The HQ suits go after MEQ's and anything with a 2+ or 3+ armor save. The elite suits go after transports and side armor on light vehicles, MC's and infantry. They're gonna be your workhorses, so make sure you get the most mileage out of them.

Use the kroot to protect your suits. Generally I recommend establishing a front line with them, then JSJ the crisis suits in front of them, shoot, then jump back behind the kroot. This lets you get cover saves without giving cover saves. You can also use the kroot for deep-strike defense, where you spread them out around the pertinent areas of your deployment zone to prevent nids and daemons from dropping down on your head. Ditto for drop pods. Also, you can string your kroot out along the table edges to prevent infantry and walkers from outflanking in your fire base.

Keep the fire warriors in reserve as long as you can.

Do with the piranha what I said to do with them earlier in this post.

The b-sides all have target locks, so each of your six b-sides can target six different vehicles. How's that for clearing parking lots?

Hope that helps,

Knute

^^^ to what he said. that seems like a nasty list.

From what I'm seeing, Knute is a big fan of the OTL (One True List) build.

Yes, it's good, but surely there are other competitive lists the Tau can build?

They desperately need a new Codex though.

Knute's list is OK but also has some serious issues (no MLs, no Horde control at all, not enough mobility).

But to the main list:

I'd be tempted to drop the TA on the El so the entire unit is Bs4. I actually think a gundrone would be a better spend of 10 points. Personally I'd take 2 as it increases your survivability (and then I'd also take a bonding knife).

Bladestorms are meh, stick to deathrains or fireknives.

Your troops selections arre pretty apauling. Firewarriors without a fish to ride in are dead. Unless you use a lot of intact buildings ensure tha you never have more Firewarrior squads than you have devilfish.

Drop 4 Kroot from each squad and take 5 Hounds, they're better.

Then you're missing basic equipement. All Tau vehicles (except Piranha's) should have Disruption pods always. Haamerheads hould always have multitrakers you need to keep them moving to keep them alive. Flechettes and Target locks are also good but not manditory.

Yes, it's good, but surely there are other competitive lists the Tau can build?

Yes there are, marker light heavy builds, railgunless builds, builds with more firewarriors.

But Knute is correct for many builds the best suit configs are fireknife and deathrain.

Taking too many Broadsides tends to anchor the list too much though, whilst they are great anti-armour fire a static list ion 5th Ed is dead. To be honest Tau, in a game where basically every army assaults you in turn 1 and can come at you from any direction, are dead.

vitae_drinker wrote:From what I'm seeing, Knute is a big fan of the OTL (One True List) build.

Yes, it's good, but surely there are other competitive lists the Tau can build?

They desperately need a new Codex though.

I'm not actually a one true list guy in general. Just when it comes to tau. I think the "one true list" mentality is a bad thing for an army in general and tau's susceptibility to it is just another symptom of being an old codex. As the codex gets older, alternate builds become obsolete, and the codex is left with fewer and fewer good lists from which to choose.

There are essentially two ways to run tau: foot (suits n' kroot) and mech (devilfish with MSU fire warriors, piranha, skyrays/hammerheads). Now that skyrays are better, I think mech tau will see a resergence since it's better. However, that was a recent development, and I've already built a suit list. I play what I recommend and I recommend what I play, so that's why you've seen my past lists be monochrome, so to speak. However, a lot of the lists I've been critiquing have been suit heavy, so I've just been nudging the builders to the list I play (which is what I believe is the optimal way to play a tau suit list; other people think differently and post their opinions, and that's a good thing b/c that gives people multiple perspectives).

So yes, tau need a new codex. The paucity of varied lists is a symptom of the codex's age, not my own adherence to the idea of the OTL.

@Flingitnow: the issues inherent to my list are those that adhere to the tau codex in general. While there isn't dedicated "horde" control, there are lots of guns. That's another reason I like the missile pods: they're high-strength and still have two shots. The HQ is also decent against "hordes" for the same reason: a high number of shots. Even the broadsides are decent against hordes because of their SMS. As far as mobility goes: my list IS closer to a gun-line than I like it to be, but I am mobile enough that I don't fall totally to being a gun line. I can live with that.

ASIDE: how does one define "horde" armies nowadays? Even the traditional horde armies (nids, IG, orks) don't function as true "hordes" in the traditional sense. Nids focus on MCs, IG on AV12 transports, and orks on a variety of things, including boys. But I've beat all those "horde" armies with my lists at varied point levels and against very good players. I don't think my lists are as fragile as you think. END ASIDE.

What are "bladestorms"?

Finally, you once more overstate an issue. There are a few list builds in a couple armies that can potentially put a couple units into assault range on turn one if your opponent is a moron. Even the LSS rush I've seen you talk about isn't something I'm terribly impressed with. I'm sure it would startle a new player to the point where your early momentum can carry you for the rest of the game. But experienced players will take advantage of your overreach and use it against you. Even against tau, the only thing you're going to get is a unit of kroot (maybe).

Other than the LSS rush, what other lists can assault an opponent turn 1, provided the opponent doesn't set up like a moron?

As previously mentioned, there are other (viable) builds (though I know of none without railguns whatsoever). However, I think my lists and lists like it are slightly better given how saturated the field is with MCs and vehicles.

Good seeing you posting on tau lists again FlingItNow.

Hope this helps,

Knute

I wasn't saying your list was terrible and no Tau list will ever be great due to the limitations of the codex.

Bladestorm is busrtcannon and missile pod - 5 shots a suit.

What can assault turn 1 other than LSSs? Deffkopters, Scout bikers, Interceptors and Dreadknights off the top of my head. I also don't think it's possible for Tau to beat BA Rhino rush if the BA player goes first (and near impossible if he goes 2nd). Though I'd like to hear your thoughts on how to deal with that type of army.

I don't think you've played against someone who knows how to use LSSs if they've overreached themselves. And ensuring that it is just Kroot I'm assaulting causes problems for your deployment and takes a lot of Kroot and gives me other advantages. Thats what iots about if you set your whole army up just to deal with 350 pts of my army the other 1500 will be happy.

FlingitNow wrote:

Bladestorm is busrtcannon and missile pod - 5 shots a suit.

Actually, that is a very common mistake... I thought that was what a bladestorm was until:
http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=9754

Bladestorm is PR/BC
Firestorm is BC/MP


I think Knute's list is fairly strong. It's weakest point would be horde armies, but you do have 30 kroot, 15 hounds, and 6 fire warriors. With concentration of fire, and the aid of your deathrains, you wouldn't have too much of a problem.

Yyeah I always get those configs confused, I've found bladestorm quite good cheap MEQ killer (the build I first started using with Tau) but I prefer the all purpose use of the Fireknife particularly in the mech heavy world of 5th Ed.

I think we can safely discount scout bikers charging on turn one. Who uses those?

Deffkoptas are a threat, but in all the games I've play against orks they've not been that big of an issue. The ork lists I've run up against are usually either (a) mech, (b) biker, or (c) horde. But never all three together. Yeah, tau will probably lose to hordes. I lost to horde orks once, but trust me when I say it was a close thing and I was running a sub-optimal list. I know I could take horde orks now with my current lists. As for the others, I've never lost to a biker list (including ones with deffkoptas). By far the hardest for me to play against are mech lists. But in a tournament setting I tend not to worry about them because I know orks basically auto-lose to IG. I don't think orks are big enough players to worry about in a tournament scene.

I've never played against Grey Knights, but I'll let you know how it turns out. I predict mad beats (one way or the other).

While I've never beaten BA rhino rush, I've always lost on scenarios. In a straight-up annihilation game I think I can beat them. BA is actually the army that made me take the second fireknife HQ--because I discovered the hard way that BA + FNP outmatches autocannon spam all day every day. But the BA lists I've run up against might not be true rhino rushes per se, b/c they actually run razorbacks with a mix of assault marines and assault marines - jump packs. I KNOW I have a lot of trouble beating stormraven lists b/c of their bloodstrike missiles. They can hover over my kroot and fire straight down at my suits so i don't get cover saves. I can counter that if I go first and they actually fail cover saves, but it's a hard battle. I think BA are beatable with tau, but you have to have somethings break your way.

And I know you swear by the LSS charge, but I've never seen it done. I'll remain healthily skeptical until I see it.

BA Rhino Rush is a massive problem because you're being assaulted turn 2 by 40-50 FnP FC Marines. And it's impossible to stop them in 1 turn of shooting and pretty much impossible even in 2 with Tau.

Orks are one of the most comparmies onthOurnament scene so not sure what you're talking about there. Though I predict GKs will rule in the near future with Purifier spam lists dominating the 1500-1750 scene.

I still don't see Tau as remotely competitive in 5th Ed and even their strongest lists aren't that threatening. They get out assaulted by literally every army (IG have far better solutions to dealing with assault) and out shot by IG, SWs, SMs and GKs fairly easily.

Those are definitely not the type of BA lists being run where I'm from, but piranha stalling could probably extend that assault to turn 3. I'm not saying it isn't an uphill battle (it is) but I don't think it's the doom-and-gloom you posit.

As for orks: what? Orks haven't been good in ages. There are about three good lists, and I can beat two of them (bikes and horde) and IG hose the third (mech).

Tau will get less competitive the more new codexes come out. I thought the GK codex would force me to shelve my army, but I'm actually hopeful because I think the GK codex is weaker than people seem to think. It's definitely not as OP as I thought it would be. I'll have to get some more games in, but that's my preliminary call. When Necrons come out, I think tau will be hurting. They'll have one foot in the coffin and the next codex after that (which looks to be witchhunters from what I understand) will probably force me to shelve the army until the next codex comes out (which will hopefully be soon thereafter).

Kan Wall. Kan wall is nasty.

Knute wrote:As for orks: what? Orks haven't been good in ages.

How about Dashofpepper? Darrian13? Both tourney scene dominators of repute, using green skins. DoP is (in)famous here on dakka and on the East Coast. Darrain13 is a big (literally) guy on the 40k here in Los Angeles, specifically the SoCalGWLeague.

Knute wrote:There are about three good lists, and I can beat two of them (bikes and horde) and IG hose the third (mech).

Cottonjaw wrote:Kan Wall. Kan wall is nasty.

Yeah, Knute, you left out the Kan Wall with KFF reinforcement. December through March had at least 3 Kan Walls in the monthly RTT. IIRC, a Wall won in March.

The last Tau brought to my FLGS, Game Empire RTTs was me, Nov 2010. I went 0-2 and picked up the last round buy. It's a big monthly scene with 20 players, give or take a few guys. What's your local meta composed of, Knute?

FlingItNow wrote:Orks are one of the most comparmies onthOurnament scene so not sure what you're talking about there. Though I predict GKs will rule in the near future with Purifier spam lists dominating the 1500-1750 scene.

I agree on the orks, FiN. As for the GKs, I was surprised that there were none in yesterday's RTT:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/366974.page

Though a GK army is on top of our 8 Weekly League.