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So I'm reading the Horus Heresy in no particular order, as ordained by the vagaries of the public library's availability. I know I could probably download the books, but I like the feel of paper in my hands, and I'm certainly not going to give GW money for them.

Anyway, I just finished A Thousand Sons (having finished Prospero Burns a while back), and I'm a bit confused about the new (canon?) events of Nicaea. If the Emperor disavowed the Librarium, how is it this institution still stands today? I mean, yes, I get that Leman Russ and his Legion were a barbarous and superstitious lot that saw their powers as somehow divorced from the Warp. And I get that Magnus and the Thousand Sons were far too careless and arrogant in their confidence of their mastery of such knowledge. But surely the other Astartes were bright enough to grasp the nature of the Warp and its relation to psykers, as well as obedient enough not to crap all over the Emperor's edict? Did I miss something?

In Garro:Legion of One Garro is sent out to actively recruit former Librarians. The restriction on pyskers was starting to come apart per the orders of Malecador.

Malcador...
Mr Sigilite essentially decided to creatively interpret the Emperor's orders...
He got away with it so far play to the man...

purplefood wrote:Malcador...
Mr Sigilite essentially decided to creatively interpret the Emperor's orders...
He got away with it so far play to the man...

Malcador the Sigilite was sanctioned by the Emperor to basically do whatever the hell he pleased, so long as the Imperium survived.

Kanluwen wrote:

purplefood wrote:Malcador...
Mr Sigilite essentially decided to creatively interpret the Emperor's orders...
He got away with it so far play to the man...

Malcador the Sigilite was sanctioned by the Emperor to basically do whatever the hell he pleased, so long as the Imperium survived.

That was nice of him to do so...

Kanluwen wrote:

purplefood wrote:Malcador...
Mr Sigilite essentially decided to creatively interpret the Emperor's orders...
He got away with it so far play to the man...

Malcador the Sigilite was sanctioned by the Emperor to basically do whatever the hell he pleased, so long as the Imperium survived.

Malcador the Sigillite: making totalitarianism work in the far future

Well, the whole point of the ruling was to stop Magnus and The Thousand Sons, and to a certain extent the Librarians of other Legions, from straying to far and discovering Chaos. When Horus betrayed The Emperor and Chaos revealed itself, there was no real point in preventing a effective weapon from being used.

Emperor screwed up, plain and simple.

That kind of heavy-handed crap may have worked for the stupider Primarchs, but he shouldn't have tried it with Lorgar and Magnus. Those Primarchs above all wouldn't just take his word for it, since they had thoughts about more than just KILLFORTHEEMPRAHBLARHGHYBPORDURP!

Heh. Angron, hit him with a plank just to keep him going. The Emperor, as powerful as he is, fairly ballsed everything up.

I dont think anyone is in a position to comment on what the Emperors ideas behind his own actions were, Seeing as how we haven't had and probably never will have a book from his POV.

Lorgar and Magnus should have done as they were ordered had Magnus done as he were told at nikea then the Emperor, the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes would have been able to take a far more active roll in the Heresy as they wouldnt have been fighting off the enormous daemonic incursion occuring behind the golden throne. I won't argue that without Lorgar the Heresy wouldnt have happened because I believe the Chaos gods would merely have found another pawn.

We can. The Emperor, professing to be a 'father' to the Primarchs completely ballsed things up. He didn't explain his plans to Magnus, causing him to betray The Emperor due to loyalty. He crushed Lorgar with no fore-thought, and caused him to actually start The Heresy. He then left Horus to lead The Crusade with nearly no guidance, making him seem like his favorite son and then left him with no warning, not even telling him why he was leaving, causing the seeds of doubt to take root in Horus. The Emperor, with a little but of help from the Chaos Gods, basically caused the Heresy himself.

Not even accounting for the fact that he didn't tell Magnus about the webway, which would have saved a lot of trouble, he flat-out ignored Magnus' warnings that Horus was a traitor.

And that's why the Eldar of the 41st millenium call the Emperor a weakling seer.

It was fear. The Emperor was a crazy control-freak, so when he didn't get to dictate the upbringing of his sons, he was afraid of them and what they may represent. He killed two of them for crossing some (no doubt arbitrary) line, and he reacted with fear to Lorgar's devotion and with fear to Magnus' boundless curiosity.

Of course, the son he had the most time with ended up being the pompous ass that killed him.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:And that's why the Eldar of the 41st millenium call the Emperor a weakling seer.

I have never.....ever....heard this even hinted at. What on Earth is your source?

Omegus wrote:It was fear. The Emperor was a crazy control-freak, so when he didn't get to dictate the upbringing of his sons, he was afraid of them and what they may represent. He killed two of them for crossing some (no doubt arbitrary) line, and he reacted with fear to Lorgar's devotion and with fear to Magnus' boundless curiosity.

Of course, the son he had the most time with ended up being the pompous ass that killed him.

He didn't necessarily kill them, they just vanished and no one was allowed to talk about them, ever. Judging by the comments by Dorn in 'Mechanicum', I think it's likely they're either in the EoT or the Maelstrom. Horus didn't turn evil due to over-exposure to Emperor radiation or anything, but his relationship made the perceived betrayal the Gods showed him seem worse to him.

Well, no, he did kill at least one of them (or rather Russ and his Legion did).

iproxtaco wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:And that's why the Eldar of the 41st millenium call the Emperor a weakling seer.

I have never.....ever....heard this even hinted at. What on Earth is your source?

Codex Eldar (not the current edition).

Although it hardly needed saying in canon. The Emperor clearly wasn't precognitive in any way as shown by his complete failure to recognize things even an idiot would see if he weren't blinded by his own arrogance.

He is now. The Emperor's Tarot, not accurate by any means, but neither are the Eldar, and The Emperor was an order of magnitude more powerful than the best Eldar that has ever existed.

I had a lot of similar questions...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/206403.page

iproxtaco wrote:He is now. The Emperor's Tarot, not accurate by any means, but neither are the Eldar, and The Emperor was an order of magnitude more powerful than the best Eldar that has ever existed.

That requires some qualifiers. The Emperor was never portrayed as being proficient with precognition. Whereas, Eldar have been shown seeing quite a bit down the line with great accuracy.

Whether the Emperor was more potent in other psychic fields is a topic best left for another thread as it's less cut and dry.

The Emperor's Tarot was also ironically created by Lorgar (yes, that Lorgar), and was universally lampooned by the other primarchs and the Emperor.

The precognitive power granted by this psycho-reactive deck of cards is greatly exaggerated.

It's very rarely used, but I actually haven't ever heard of it being wrong. The Emperor uses it as a way of guiding humanity, though your write in saying that it isn't exactly a form of precognition. I wrongly took 'seer' as meaning 'psyker' in general.

From the description of First Heretic, they merely capture surface feelings and emotions from the user, forming relevant images. I don't think the Emperor is involved in any way, shape or form in what appears on those cards. I don't think he had an iota of precognition, not even to the level of the Thousand Sons. Although it probably wasn't his fault; after he screwed over the Ruinous Powers, they would have sabotaged the hell out of any attempt he made to see the future tides of the Great Ocean.

Well, until we see things from The Emperor's perspective, or we have information on the man himself, we don't know, maybe he could predict the future, although just now he's just an unimaginably powerful Psyker. The Tarot however is linked to the thoughts of The Emperor himself, although it's nothing on the level of The Eldar.

Omegus wrote: Although it probably wasn't his fault; after he screwed over the Ruinous Powers,

You'll note that the only ones claiming the Emperor consorted with the Ruinous Powers was the Ruinous Powers. They're also known for not being so stringent with the truth.

So is the Emperor.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Omegus wrote: Although it probably wasn't his fault; after he screwed over the Ruinous Powers,

You'll note that the only ones claiming the Emperor consorted with the Ruinous Powers was the Ruinous Powers. They're also known for not being so stringent with the truth.

What about in Legion when Gramatticus repeatedly hints that the Emperor was tainted?

He doesn't hint that the Emperor is tainted, and the Cabal acknowledged that the Emperor understands that the Primordial Annihilator is the real enemy. John hints that the Emperor is in many ways no better than Chaos, and flat out states that the Emperor is a bloodthirsty bastard and not human by any definition.

iproxtaco wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:And that's why the Eldar of the 41st millenium call the Emperor a weakling seer.

I have never.....ever....heard this even hinted at. What on Earth is your source?

3rd edition Codex Eldar page 39


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iproxtaco wrote:He is now. The Emperor's Tarot, not accurate by any means, but neither are the Eldar, and The Emperor was an order of magnitude more powerful than the best Eldar that has ever existed.

Not true. All the fluff ever says about the Emperor is that he is the most powerful HUMAN psyker that has ever lived, not the most powerful psyker that has ever lived. The Eldar pre fall were FAR more powerful than the emperor as everything about the eldar is in the extreme. From their emotions to their psychic powers to their technology...everything. Post Fall however things have changed. All of those powerful Eldar psykers are dead due to the fall and most of the powerful Eldar technology is also gone with them.