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Guys, just use a shotgun slug. You don't have to pen the armor to defeat it.

If you really want to pen it, make up a shotgun round with a tungsten needle in a plastic sabot.

Anvildude wrote:
Question also: do you mean "Defeat" as in, penetrate, or 'Defeat' as in, stop the person wearing it?

By defeat, I mean penetrate.

 Ouze wrote:

Anvildude wrote:
Question also: do you mean "Defeat" as in, penetrate, or 'Defeat' as in, stop the person wearing it?

By defeat, I mean penetrate.

Well.. OK, how'd you like it penetrated?

Chemically or through kinetic action, since I doubt you'll consider killing the target with spalling 'penetration'.

I seem to remember something about using PAM on your rounds, but I'm not sure if that was an urban legend or not.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
If you really want to pen it, make up a shotgun round with a tungsten needle in a plastic sabot.

I'm not a lawyer but pretty sure this would be a felony. AP ammunition falls into a weird legal area - you're allowed to own it, and if you have it as an individual, you're allowed to sell it, but you're not allowed to manufacture or import it.

 Ouze wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
If you really want to pen it, make up a shotgun round with a tungsten needle in a plastic sabot.

I'm not a lawyer but pretty sure this would be a felony. AP ammunition falls into a weird legal area - you're allowed to own it, and if you have it as an individual, you're allowed to sell it, but you're not allowed to manufacture or import it.

Not true, shotgun ammunition is exempt! The definition under federal law specifically excludes it from the legal definition of 'Armor Piercing'.

Yes and no, I think. The section that exempts shotgun ammo only does so for specific purposes, not a general shotgun exemption.

If it can be loaded into a handgun, it's not exempt. So, I think manufacturing .410 AP would be unlawful (by dint of the Judge, among others), but I don't know if any 12 gauge pistols.

 Ouze wrote:
Yes and no, I think. The section that exempts shotgun ammo only does so for specific purposes, not a general shotgun exemption.

If it can be loaded into a handgun, it's not exempt. So, I think manufacturing .410 AP would be unlawful (by dint of the Judge, among others), but I don't know if any 12 gauge pistols.

Shotgun pistols are generally illegal most places anyway because of the laws restricting sawed-off shotguns.

Of course a law saying "can be loaded into a handgun" is silly to begin with because any gunsmith could theoretically make a handgun to fire any type of ammunition.

Plus, banning manufacture but not possession is also a silly law because unless you catch someone in the actual act of making the ammunition there is no enforcement. You'd have to actually video them crafting the ammo. Catching them with either the components or the finished product would not be sufficient.

Its just like how it is legal to purchase, possess, and sell the parts to make a firearm into a machine gun. Its only illegal to cut the holes in the receiver and install the parts, and possess the finished product.

I feel you, and I agree, I totally agree, but we're entering into the no-no place now.

My legally purchased Judge seems to be evidence that not all 'shotgun pistols' are illegal.

 Ouze wrote:
Yes and no, I think. The section that exempts shotgun ammo only does so for specific purposes, not a general shotgun exemption.

If it can be loaded into a handgun, it's not exempt. So, I think manufacturing .410 AP would be unlawful (by dint of the Judge, among others), but I don't know if any 12 gauge pistols.

Oh, you wanted an AP pistol? Good luck there. Long arms are the way to go for legal AP.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:
My legally purchased Judge seems to be evidence that not all 'shotgun pistols' are illegal.

Is not legally a shotgun due to it's rifled barrel. Has to be smooth bore to be considered a shotgun.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Yes and no, I think. The section that exempts shotgun ammo only does so for specific purposes, not a general shotgun exemption.

If it can be loaded into a handgun, it's not exempt. So, I think manufacturing .410 AP would be unlawful (by dint of the Judge, among others), but I don't know if any 12 gauge pistols.

Oh, you wanted an AP pistol? Good luck there. Long arms are the way to go for legal AP..

Someone else was asking about this. I didn't want one at all.

Anyone have experience with civilian thermal rifle sights or other civilian night vision sights? I have a need to ID and hit at night.

 Grey Templar wrote:
[
Shotgun pistols are generally illegal most places anyway because of the laws restricting sawed-off shotguns.

Sawed off shotguns are illegal, but that only applies if you actually shorten an existing shotgun that was manufactured as such.

Smooth-bore firearms with a barrel less than 18" in length, which are not manufactured to be shoulder-fired, do not fit the definition of shotgun. They are simply "firearms" and are not NFA regulated. Thus, you can *manufacture*, but not modify, a "firearm" designed to fire shotgun shells, with a barrel of any length, as long as it is not designed to be shoulder-fired. Even Mossberg is making such a "firearm" now.

SBR finally complete. Total ATF wait time from E-File submission to receipt of stamp: 12 days.

Get 'em in now if you're thinking about a Form 1 for something.

 CptJake wrote:
Anyone have experience with civilian thermal rifle sights or other civilian night vision sights? I have a need to ID and hit at night.

I got to play with an Armasight Zeus, that was *awesome*, but unfortunately the cost of most decent thermal optics is 3-5x the cost of the rifles I'd put them on, so beyond that I haven't had a chance to play with them.

Nice SBR, is it all Aero Precision? 12 days is not long to wait!

The receivers are Aero, the furniture and rail are from Hera, and the rest is a mismash of all sorts of parts

Well it looks great, I'm sure it's a lot of fun at the range!

 Vaktathi wrote:
The receivers are Aero, the furniture and rail are from Hera, and the rest is a mismash of all sorts of parts

Gorgeous Vak! That should be in a sci-fi movie. Total Poseidon / Seburo vibe

That's a great looking SBR.

Can't believe form 1s are down to 2 weeks - I probably better go get fingerprinted again.

How do you like the holosun scopes?

There is this shotgun...pistol....thing?

https://www.range365.com/mossberg-shockwave-gun-test

I'm deeply tempted by that. I do own a shotgun and it was originally intended for home defense, but it's a full size shotgun so, you know, it's 4 feet long. Not great for going around corners.

This seems to fix that problem, and also just looks fun.

 Ouze wrote:


How do you like the holosun scopes?

I quite like it. The 510c is often available for as little as $200 if you do some searching (usually $250-300), and while probably not as durable as some of the bigger names, its half or a third the cost and I'm also not planning on hopping out of a helicopter into salt water on a screaming hot day, so they've worked for everything ive used them for so far. Battery life is great, the one in the pic has been on for 4 months straight on the same battery.

 d-usa wrote:
There is this shotgun...pistol....thing?

https://www.range365.com/mossberg-shockwave-gun-test

Basically it's a "feth the NFA" thing, it doesn't have much purpose outside of that.

Don't own any firearms myself, but have a fair bit of experience due to a few years in the Cadets. Used 5.56mm GP rifles, the British SA80 redesigned for single-shot fire. Very nice design, comfortable yet compact.

Was in the States a few months back and spend a few hours in ranges in CA and NV. My fiance and I used a nice variety of weapons including a Kimber 9mm, Desert Eagle, Kar98, Ak47 and a Barrett M82. The Desert Eagle is such an overhyped weapon, you have a 5-round clip, and you have to make every shot count, and while it'll obliterate whatever it hits, it's just too-damn big and heavy to use in any situation besides the range.

The Barrett however was just terrifying. The pressure-wave just knocks the air out of you, the only thing that takes your breath away more is the $30/round pricetag.

Loved using the ranges, just wish we had more of them over here in the UK.

 d-usa wrote:
There is this shotgun...pistol....thing?

https://www.range365.com/mossberg-shockwave-gun-test

"Firearm"

War Drone wrote:
Gorgeous Vak! That should be in a sci-fi movie. Total Poseidon / Seburo vibe

Yeah, I really dig the Gits influence on the furniture

That said Im finding that the ambi safety and this grip are not the most comfortable things, much like on the Scorpion Evo.

 Valkyrie wrote:

The Barrett however was just terrifying. The pressure-wave just knocks the air out of you, the only thing that takes your breath away more is the $30/round pricetag.

Loved using the ranges, just wish we had more of them over here in the UK.

50BMG is always...interesting. ive seen them knock mud dauber nests off the ceiling at ranges, and you never want to be guy in the next lane over

I fired the M107 in the Army, and I was always surprised at how little felt recoil it has. That muzzle break is serious business. I'm pretty sure it would knock you over if you were standing to the side of it, though.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
There is this shotgun...pistol....thing?

https://www.range365.com/mossberg-shockwave-gun-test

Basically it's a "feth the NFA" thing, it doesn't have much purpose outside of that.

I'd say saying "Feth you!" to the NFA is never a waste of time

But it would be decent as a home defense weapon due to its size. Your wrist probably won't appreciate it but you knew that going in

I basically did the whole Shockwave thing before it was popular. I bought a 12-gauge Mossberg Persuader. 20-inch barrel, pistol grip, 8+1 rounds. The pistol grip just hurt my wrist to shoot. That's when I picked up the Shockwave grip (before they partnered with Mossberg) and put it on my weapon. I have to admit, the birds head grip is actually more comfortable than the standard pistol grip.

Also, it now fits better into the over-the-shoulder shotgun scabbard I picked up to feel like Mad Max.

Most modified shotguns I've seen end up being AOWs etc.

The shockwave and similar firearms get away with it because they were never manufactured as shotguns according to NFA definitions. It's all about how the weapon is entered in the manufacturer's books when they make it, similar to an AR15 pistol vs an SBR.