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Mrs S and I were discussing starting Warmachine and Hordes.

She likes circle and minions and I like cygnar. Many folks have said 'it's basically the same game' so would it be possible for us to start a faction from each game and learn together?

I played my first Warmachine and Hordes games yesterday. I played Menoth, one opponent played Khador and the other opponent played Trollbloods. The core mechanics for each game are identical. The only difference were Fury versus Focus generation which threw me for a loop at first. They were both fun armies to play against.

I think every thing produced by Privateer Press has a 'Play Warmachine against Hordes" or "Play Hordes against Warmachine" on it but this question still comes up all the time.

Wonder why they don't group both (Warmachine and Hordes) under a single game titled, like Iron Kingdoms or something.

Sparks wrote:I think every thing produced by Privateer Press has a 'Play Warmachine against Hordes" or "Play Hordes against Warmachine" on it but this question still comes up all the time.

Wonder why they don't group both (Warmachine and Hordes) under a single game titled, like Iron Kingdoms or something.

Well, I remember someone somewhere saying that due to the caster types working differently, the warmachine armies are at a disadvantage to the hordes stuff. I'm also keen to know just how easy and interchangeable it all is for total novices.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Well, I remember someone somewhere saying that due to the caster types working differently, the warmachine armies are at a disadvantage to the hordes stuff. I'm also keen to know just how easy and interchangeable it all is for total novices.

This comes up a few times at the official boards and it gets battered around with no real conclusion coming out. Therefore I believe that they are as balanced as reasonably possible. Part of the reason people believe that Hordes is superior is that if you have three heavy beasts facing off against three heavy jacks the beasts can buy boosts/attacks up to their fury stat (say is four) and have the warlock casts spells. that's roughly 17-18 fury being used in one turn and Warmachine is stuck with focus 5-8 casters. Where this argument fails is that it doesn't take into account the next turn where the beasts frenzy and thus can't be counted upon to do what is needed, they could even attack their own warlock.

Basically Hordes is strong at the beginning of the game when all the beasts are around and healthy, animi are going all over the place and all is good. However, take out the beasts and then you still have a warcaster on the Warmachine side getting (x) focus a turn which always adds to their armour.

There is a school of thought that Cygnar has it roughest against hordes, as some of the electrical ability they throw about causes disruption, which only works on warjacks. Other factions abilities, fire, ice and corrosion aren't affected.

Most of the posters who seem to talk the most sense and least hyperbole don't consider Cygnar at a disadvantage they can't overcome with well built lists.

Hordes is a lot easier to play. In my opinion warmachine has an advantage. Once beast start dying it becomes difficult to generate fury. Also warjacks have a really high armor. The highest armor that hordes has its i think 20 and thats from a construct. If you check out the Khador jacks they have so much boxes that i would take a least to really hard puching beast to take it out.

I've been playing a lot of Retribution vs eKaya, which should be a very tough matchup. The thing is, I've got the ability to kill/box a warbeast or 2 in a single turn with a little luck. So he's got to be careful around me, which then works out to an interesting game of controlled aggression.

I think in Mk 1, Warmachine had a clear advantage. In Mk II, I think Hordes has an advantage in terms of "magic", but WarMachine can still hold up with good play.

'Advantage' Goes to Hordes in Turn 2 when the action starts but tampers off pretty quick as you kill of things that can generate fury and hamsting their warlock, all the while you are pumping out 5 to 10 Focus a turn regardless.

So really it just all comes out in the wash.

My wife and I learned how to play this way.

I play Circle and she plays Cryx. as mentioned the core is the same, focus and fury is the only differences

Are you going to have some models down for Dakkacon MGS? I picked up the Oroboros set too, and was hoping for a walk through myself; we might be able to get some hot puppy on puppy action.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Well, I remember someone somewhere saying that due to the caster types working differently, the warmachine armies are at a disadvantage to the hordes stuff. I'm also keen to know just how easy and interchangeable it all is for total novices.

I think this was true in MkI, MkII rebalanced the game completely so I would say that this is not the case any more. It, along with the 'warjacks are useless', is not an argument I hear very much any more. Which is a good thing IMO. The casters still work differently, there just isn't the power gap any more.

You can download the starter rules on-line (for free). Have you tried a game or two using proxies? I started this way, my first game used a Stormtrooper and a pair of Sentinels as a proxy Khador starter set.

Be aware that Minions are a very small 'faction' with limited options right now. That will change as new minion models are being released, but right now they are limited compared to the 'big four' Hordes Factions.

They don't sell the game as a single game because
Warmachine and Hordes are separate each brands.

In my experience the two games are balanced pretty well against each other- certainly if you can put up with the imbalances in GW rules Warmachine and Hordes is going to be like the Promised Land for you.
The arguments about overpowered and so on I think only come at the hard core edge. And every faction has SOMETHING to counter what you've got. Rules wise, it's a very healthy game with a lot going on.

You have to fight differently against each army. Warmachine you can go all out to get the caster. Hordes you have to play an attrition game since the 'lock can transfer out damage.

Da Boss wrote:The arguments about overpowered and so on I think only come at the hard core edge.

And even then, in my experience, those arguments tend to come from people who aren't prepared to face both(by having no abilities that affect beasts/fury, by having a large amount of jack/focus only abilities, etc.). It seems to be the same people that complain about pGoreshade in Mangled Metal.

Yeah. I played WM/Hordes competatively (even won a tournament this one time!) and I found that it really comes down a lot more to what you do on the table than your list selection to win the day. If you pick things that are solid and don't rely on gimmicks, you stand a good chance against most things you'll fight. I ran a very balanced trollbloods list (didn't even use the Krielstone) and I went toe to toe with many "broken" lists (Haley gunlines, eDenny, both Gaspys, Venethrax against Hordes, all the nasty Skorne combos) and had close run wins and losses in equal measure. The game may have some imbalances, but they are minor and generally overblown by internet hyperbole- especially compared to GW games.

That echos my feelings so far Da Boss. Normally, with 40k/Fantasy---I can walk up to a table and see the writing on the wall. With some army lists, you can see it before they roll dice. Warmachine thus far---seems like one good combo/turn can put you back in the game. Guess I don't feel the snowball affect as badly so far (compared to 40k/Fantasy).

Warmahordes is definitely less forgiving if you make a mistake or give your opponent too much breathing room to pull off that miracle attack on you

Less forgiving yes, but I rather lose because I made a mistake than being told "You did everything perfectly, your army just sucks". Happened to me all the time playing Tau.

We did a breakdown of Hordes on my blog that might be useful, you can find it here:

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2010/12/hordes-101-game.html

In general, fury is a more efficient mechanic than focus, with more risk and potentially more power. Warmachine tends to have heavier hitters and better feats and Armor, while Hordes has insulation from one-punch-machinegun assassination moves with damage transfers, more technical feats, and more synergies (except Legion! ).

The games play seamlessly with each other, though I will say from lots of experience teaching the game that it can be a little confusing for newer players when you're replenishing and allocating focus and overboosting your powerfield, and then trying to explain to them how to force, leach, reave, transfer damage, and make threshold checks.

That being said, if both players have a good foundation in wargames and read their own rules, you should be fine. I taught my then-fiancee to play back in Mk.I with lots of Khador vs. Legion battles, and she went on to cut plenty of hedz with Rhyas before the Mk.II nerfbat hit.

-Dis.

Sparks wrote:Less forgiving yes, but I rather lose because I made a mistake than being told "You did everything perfectly, your army just sucks". Happened to me all the time playing Tau.

No kidding. I've shelved so many of my 40K armies because either their book sucked or I just don't have the means to buy the models for the one or two builds you need to win with the book.

At least with WM/H, I know my list is less important than me making mistakes or being prepared to exploit an opponent's.

Platuan4th wrote:

Da Boss wrote:The arguments about overpowered and so on I think only come at the hard core edge.

And even then, in my experience, those arguments tend to come from people who aren't prepared to face both(by having no abilities that affect beasts/fury, by having a large amount of jack/focus only abilities, etc.). It seems to be the same people that complain about pGoreshade in Mangled Metal.

I don't think I've actually seen any anti beast/fury abilities in my merc book. It's either warjack specific, or whether its hordes or machines isn't relevant. I suppose warbeasts will get hit by living model effects more often.

Alten Ashley. There's also a plethora of hordes only effects in Hordes, such as the Agonizer.

Requia wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Da Boss wrote:The arguments about overpowered and so on I think only come at the hard core edge.

And even then, in my experience, those arguments tend to come from people who aren't prepared to face both(by having no abilities that affect beasts/fury, by having a large amount of jack/focus only abilities, etc.). It seems to be the same people that complain about pGoreshade in Mangled Metal.

I don't think I've actually seen any anti beast/fury abilities in my merc book. It's either warjack specific, or whether its hordes or machines isn't relevant. I suppose warbeasts will get hit by living model effects more often.

Laughing Man wrote:Alten Ashley.

This. Mercs aren't limited by the Mercs book. There are a large assortment of Minions(some of which have anti-beast abilities) who are also Mercs.

Laughing Man wrote:Alten Ashley. There's also a plethora of hordes only effects in Hordes, such as the Agonizer.

The Agonizer has one of the most vicious anti-warjack debuffs in the game.

And although Hordes suffers very little, if at all, from stuff that causes disruption (a warjack-centric debuff), in general anything that affects Living Models (and there is a lot of this stuff on both sides of the aisle, WM and H) is going to be fully viable against Warbeasts.

As someone who plays both Khador and Skorne (and has played Legion pretty seriously), I personally find Focus/Fury to be as balanced as different mechanics can be. Fury is more powerful for the One Big Turn, where you can run every single beast hot and generate 2-3x as many Fury as a Focus player could have handed out, but a good player can blunt the One Big Turn through either positioning, ability/spell/feat usage, or by simply killing off a warbeast or two before their opponent is ready to launch a significant offensive.

Warcasters become much more powerful late game as their focus pool keeps regenerating and contributing to their armor total and powering spells, while Warlocks who have lost beasts have to cut or forego casting and transferring.

Platuan4th wrote:

Requia wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Da Boss wrote:The arguments about overpowered and so on I think only come at the hard core edge.

And even then, in my experience, those arguments tend to come from people who aren't prepared to face both(by having no abilities that affect beasts/fury, by having a large amount of jack/focus only abilities, etc.). It seems to be the same people that complain about pGoreshade in Mangled Metal.

I don't think I've actually seen any anti beast/fury abilities in my merc book. It's either warjack specific, or whether its hordes or machines isn't relevant. I suppose warbeasts will get hit by living model effects more often.

Laughing Man wrote:Alten Ashley.

This. Mercs aren't limited by the Mercs book. There are a large assortment of Minions(some of which have anti-beast abilities) who are also Mercs.

Ah, I haven't been able to sneak a peak at the minions book yet.

Requia wrote:

Ah, I haven't been able to sneak a peak at the minions book yet.

You really should, it's got some great options.

And don't forget that if you get really jealous, there's Lesser Warlocks to get you in on the Warbeast loving(2 of which can even bring extra beasts).

sourclams wrote:And although Hordes suffers very little, if at all, from stuff that causes disruption (a warjack-centric debuff), in general anything that affects Living Models (and there is a lot of this stuff on both sides of the aisle, WM and H) is going to be fully viable against Warbeasts.

This. Hordes players fear and hate models with Grievous Wounds.

Oh... -adds McBain to the anti hordes option list-

Hmm, that 'cannot transfer damage' in grievous wounds prevents a warlock hit from sending damage to beasts?