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How do Battle Sister become one of them?
And what are they? Do they represent a portion of Emperor's own energy?
Or are they simply some form of highly trained psychic mutant?

In the Enforcer book it talks about the troubled daughter of a noble being accepted for sorroritas training to straighten her out.

Seemed a bit silly.


Other than that, I think it's similar to how you are accepted to commissariat. Orphaned or selected.

I think you mean "Living Saints"?

Basically, sainthood in the Imperium (in general terms) is a function of the Ecclesiarchy. Someone does something heroic, either in the face of battle or for the good of the people of the Imperium or whatever, in means that are deemed to be inspired by the Emperor and blessed with His Grace and Power.

The Ecclesiarchy gathers evidence and testimony of the event, tests the area as well as the body and spirit of the proposed saint (if any remains are available) for signs of Warp corruption or taint and, assuming it passes muster and cannot be explained by other means, they are sainted and added to the list of Imperial Saints.

As far as the Living Saints of the Sisters of Battle are concerned, they seem to be a living host for a fragment of the Emperor's power, in that they glow, and float, and can do other nifty, holy things.

The Sisterhood does not have psykers in its ranks, these are burned as witches.

dave_salmon wrote:In the Enforcer book it talks about the troubled daughter of a noble being accepted for sorroritas training to straighten her out.

Seemed a bit silly.

It should be noted that she was being accepted into the Militant Arm. The Soritas are a far more diverse organisation than 'nuns with guns'.


As for the OP, as Psienesis pointed out, there is a marked difference between Saints and a Living Saint. I'm still not quite sure which one Sebastian Thor was.

As far as the story with the girl...

All members of the Sororitas, at the beginning, go through the same military-religious school training. Here, they learn all about the Emperor, their history, the Imperium, its function, its saints, its heroes, its enemies and the Imperial Creed. They also all receive basic training in the Flamer, the Bolter and the mace, the basic weapons of the Sororitas.

Being that this is the toughest of Catholic schools for girls, the training regimen and discipline is exceedingly harsh. Once they are deemed worthy, however, they are selected to join one of the main Ordos of the Sororitas. They are not, however, required to stay. A Sister can leave the Sororitas at any time of her own free will, and none will condemn her for it. The Sororitas has no use for false piety or coerced allegiance.

Sisters can leave Ordo whenever they want?
Aren't Imperium a little worry when losing one of it's better trained solder?

Probably very few leave anyway.

Yeah, it's probably like:

"Retirement? HERESY!!!" *BLAM*

Psienesis wrote: They are not, however, required to stay. A Sister can leave the Sororitas at any time of her own free will, and none will condemn her for it. The Sororitas has no use for false piety or coerced allegiance.

I don't recall reading this anywhere, even in the (somewhat haphazard) Faith and Fire novel.

It makes sense. In addition, anyone wanting more information on become an Imperial saint should look into the process of becoming a Catholic saint, since the two have more than a few similarities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization

Speak to God as a teenager, lead France to victory against the heathen English and then be burnt alive?

*reads article*

Oh.

As has been mentioned already, there are no psykers nor mutants in the Sisterhood. Both things are detectable by genetic testing, and all prospective members of the Sororitas are carefully screened to ensure purity of mind as well as body. In fact, the "Shield of Faith" AoE special rule of the Adepta Sororitas outright negates minor psychic powers (regardless if used for or against them) whilst seriously impeding major ones.

Where the power of a Living Saint truly comes from depends on where you think the power behind the Sisters' "normal" Acts of Faith comes from. Either it truly is the Emperor working through one of his chosen servants, or it is the collective power of faith somehow causing an equivalent to psychic phenomena whilst circumventing the normal requirements and restrictions. Like the Orks' Waaagh field.

I thought about the latter a lot, and by keeping in mind that emotion can occasionally have a very strong effect in 40k (-> birth of Slaanesh) as well as religion being a perfect conduit for emotion, we come to the idea that a Living Saint is the faithful crusading masses' combined hate, zeal and dedication which somehow ends up being channeled into a focal point, essentially jumping to and "possessing" one of the most faithful, thereby investing her with great supernatural powers which are naturally taken to be of divine origin by the holy warriors present.

A Living Saint's end could then occur out of two reasons: Either the frail human form of the Saint simply cannot bear the strange energies coursing through her body and she "burns out" like a magnesium flare, or - a slightly more ironical and grimdark thought - over time the masses of the faithful get used to the Living Saint doing all the hard work for them and the flow of strong emotion slowly dries up, once reaching the critical threshold essentially cutting the link between the Saint and the actual source of her powers, leaving her body a wrecked hulk.

Just theory, mind you. There is no actual canon regarding the exact nature of Faith Powers in 40k - of course everything is attributed as being the Emperor's work, but nobody knows if it's true.

Psienesis wrote:As far as the story with the girl... All members of the Sororitas, at the beginning, go through the same military-religious school training. Here, they learn all about the Emperor, their history, the Imperium, its function, its saints, its heroes, its enemies and the Imperial Creed. They also all receive basic training in the Flamer, the Bolter and the mace, the basic weapons of the Sororitas.

All this is actually done in the Ecclesiarchy's Schola Progenium, and even though the Adepta Sororitas do have a hand in the training, the progena are not yet members of the Sisterhood. Even progena meant to become Sororitas later on may still "switch paths" if they are considered to be more useful elsewhere. The Schola Progenium is also the one and only source of new recruits for the Sisterhood.

Once you actually join the Sisterhood (meaning selection to begin the novitiate), you're in it for life. Anyone wishing to leave would probably only judged to be tainted with doubt, thus "obviously" requiring their minds and body to be purged by prayer, fasting and flagellation until they're brought in line and their souls are saved. After all, how else could this individual hope to become a devoted servant of the Emperor when refusing the chance to train with His finest? Rejection is Heresy. </grimdark>

Unfortunately it just seems the novel's author was looking a bit too closely to medieval nuns when coming up with the idea that a noble family sends their daughter to the cloister for education. The AS aren't a Boarding School.

Not saying that the idea in itself is completely undoable in 40k, but the Orders Militant make no sense whatsoever when the Orders Famulous are the dedicated arm of the Sisterhood for such things. I'd even deem it possible that the Famulous do run a facility like a "40k boarding school" (with AS teachers but without the girls being considered members of the Sisterhood), though in-house education with a Sister Famulous as governess should be (and is hinted as being) the norm. Alternatively just keep the AS out of it entirely and invent a local cult, or force the girl to become a lay servant of the normal clergy in some secluded chapel, which would probably be the setting's best equivalent to what the author had intended(?).

I like your theory about the origin of Living Saints, especially the bit about burning out. I never read this story about the Sisters, but as you say, a rich enough family could probably get quite a bit accomplished beyond the scope of normal operations.

The "burning out" isn't exactly my idea, if I recall correctly this is actually mentioned in the Codex - I was just trying to explain the why.

Jimsolo wrote:I never read this story about the Sisters, but as you say, a rich enough family could probably get quite a bit accomplished beyond the scope of normal operations.

Depends on how far you go. The Sisters won't get pushed around by a bunch of nobles - in fact, they are in a far better position to push the nobles around. The Orders Famulous are an incredibly useful tool for political power games, which means that:

a) the Adepta Sororitas can never be allowed to appear influenceable, else all the nobles in the galaxy would grow even more wary of them than they already are
b) the influence of the Adepta Sororitas as a galactic organization is far more wide-reaching than a noble house whose power is limited to a specific region of space

I'm quite sure that a powerful noble is able to pull a few strings with the local Ecclesiarchy, which, in the form of recommendations and requests, may even affect the Sororitas to a certain degree - but in the end, the only one who can command them to do anything is the Ecclesiarch himself, who I presume is beyond the reach of the nobility since Thor's reformations after the Age of Apostasy (and certain laws dedicated to preventing such things, lest a new Vandire may arise some day).

The rules of the Sisters are sacrosanct, personally I don't see any way how some noble could force a convent to break them. The Sisterhood generally doesn't allow the idea of "exceptions", and if pushed they would simply push back, first involving the Order's Home Convent on Terra or Ophelia VII, then the Ecclesiarchy, and then the High Lords of Terra (where the Ecclesiarchy has a permanent seat). I don't think anyone would want to risk this just for some troublesome brat who may just as well be raised in a local cult or non-Sororitas chapel.

That said, perhaps there would be room for a non-Sororitas servant in a convent? Similar to the role of Marine serfs in their monasteries. That could actually work - the only things that I don't deem fitting are the ideas of nobles telling the AS who they have to allow amidst their ranks (in fact, according to the Codex, all Sororitas are Schola Progenium orphans) and Sisters simply leaving their convent at will as if it'd be a volunteer organization.

The Dark Heresy RPG is the most-inclusive source we have on how the Sisters function and operate on the day-to-day, and it is here that we are told that all of the Sisters who serve, do so because they want to, and because they truly believe that their faith is pure and that what they do is what the Emperor wants of them.

Think about it... if you have this supposedly-ultra-holy army populated by a bunch of women who would rather be doing something else, anything else, and are only paying lip-service to the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Creed... what good are they doing for the Imperium? For the Emperor? Their faith is hollow, their piety false, their "armor of faith" filled with so many holes that the Archenemy would have a field day corrupting them, both overtly and subversively.

The Sisters of Battle have no use for someone who, for whatever reason, does not have the strength of faith and spirit to willingly, and gladly, do what it is that they do.

Mmhm. My point is that the Sisters would not allow anyone to join who has not displayed the required amount of zeal and dedication beforehand. It's part of the selection back in the Schola. Anyone who suddenly looses this zeal and wants to leave(!) the AS would surely arise suspicion - I would deem it natural that her Sisters would attempt to "cure" such an individual by any means necessary, if you catch my drift. And they would think they're doing her a favor.

And where would an orphan even want to go? All such an individual has ever known was life isolated behind the convent walls, decades of indoctrination, with the only family being her fellow Sisters and her stern Superior.

That's like a Space Marine who suddenly decides he wants to be a baker now.

I like a lot of the ideas of the Dark Heresy RPG, but I also know that (not unlike some novels) it sometimes takes a great deal of liberty with the canon - and in places where it conflicts with what GW has written I'll simply stick to the studio material. It's the safest route (and prevents me from admitting that PDF troopers apparently receive better equipment than the Sisters Militant ).

Perhaps, but the Sororitas are not Space Marines. They're not as.. hard-wired into their duties as the Astartes are.

Things change, people change. They find that they want to do something else. Have kids, raise families, become a painter, join the Inquisition, build toy Titans, become a Rogue Trader, whatever.

Psienesis wrote:They're not as.. hard-wired into their duties as the Astartes are.

That's where we disagree. Though you may well have the RPG backing up your perception!

But I stick to their GW description: "A penitent organization where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime."

Sounds more grimdark, too. And is the very explanation for why they can evoke Acts of Faith where clerics cannot. Their lifestyle is simply more hardcore.

Sure, but that's not the same thing as being hypno-indoctrinated into the cult of their Chapter.

The acts of faith? It's a talent. Called "Pure Faith". Certain Inquisitors can do it, too. Eisenhorn did it for awhile, until he became tainted.

And, yeah, that's the Sororitas regime. Some people will be really into it, through it displaying their devotion to the Emperor, viewing it as an act of faith, but also as an act of penance for the whole of humanity.

Some people, however, won't... and this is why the Sororitas cannot have these people in its ranks. It doesn't matter how you try to *force* someone to have your beliefs and faith... at best, they're going to start telling you what you want to hear. This, for Chaos, is a foothold. If you force someone to remain in the Sisterhood, by means of threat, physical coercion, whatever... anything other than an honest desire to remain, to take on these arduous tasks as an act of faith and devotion... you breed resentment. Resentment leads to a desire to change conditions, for revenge... and these are the playthings of Tzeentch.

The Sororitas cannot function in this manner. I note that very, very, very few Sisters have ever fallen to Chaos willingly (one, I believe, ever?). This makes them particularly dependable to other militant factions within the Imperium. If this was not the case, however... if it were known that the Sisterhood had a bit of a "problem" with recidivism or outright daemonic influences within their ranks... well, this would call into question a great many things, including the sanctity of the Imperial Cult as a whole, and of the Sororitas specifically.

Psienesis wrote:Sure, but that's not the same thing as being hypno-indoctrinated into the cult of their Chapter.

One might argue that Schola education is pretty much indoctrination in its own right. And when you've never known anything else than life in the convent, how would you even know what's wrong with it? The Sororitas pretty much operate on a "carrot and a stick" policy - the carrot being the solidarity of the Sisterhood. The Adepta Sororitas become a Sister's family, which has a profound effect on how they think and feel. They get broken (in the Schola) and born anew as devoted servants of the Creed. They have a purpose and they have a home and in a way they may even feel loved - leaving the convent would mean to loose everything.

Psienesis wrote:The acts of faith? It's a talent. Called "Pure Faith".

In the RPG. In the actual setting, this is nothing you can buy with a couple XP or as part of a starting package but a personality trait representing a truly outstanding power of will, of devotion and faithfulness, a state of mind that takes many years or the observation of a true miracle to acquire and that brooks no sliver of doubt.

Eisenhorn was a psyker. If he truly pulled off AoF ... well, I've heard many good things about the quality of Abnett's books, but I also heard of certain inconsistencies with studio canon, and this seems like something to add to the list, considering that the Shield of Faith is negating psychic powers.
Of course there are individuals outside the Sororitas who can pull them off, but I'd really not consider "some Inquisitor" to be amongst them. We're talking more along the lines of Sebastian Thor or Confessor Dolan.

Psienesis wrote:Some people, however, won't... and this is why the Sororitas cannot have these people in its ranks.

Which is why only the most faithful get selected to join up in the first place (and they wouldn't allow a bunch of nobles to force their unruly daughter to join them!). The selections in the Schola are likely extremely thorough, and this core requirement may well be one of the reasons for why the Sisterhood is rather small. For someone to want to leave, she must first go through a crisis of faith - and this is where I think the Sisters would intervene instead of just letting her go and (in their eyes) damn her immortal soul. The Order has a place for any of its charges, and if there is a chance that a Sister may not be "saved" by returning her to the fold ... well, there's always the Repentia to ensure her place with the Emperor. The Mistress knows how to get her ready for martyrdom.

Don't underestimate the extreme psychological effects such a regime and its various tools can have on the human mind. Especially given how the Sisters basically grow up in such an environment. The social pressure alone must be immense - who would not want to fit in? Not just to avoid physical punishment, but also to enjoy the aforementioned carrot? Religion and the extreme isolation just make everything even easier. Humans want to fit in - it's in our instincts, and the most atrocious acts of mass violence can be traced back to it.

PS: As per the RAW, Acts of Faith are not available to every Sororitas, only to their veterans. It's a bit tricky to "transfer" this mechanic into the fluff, but they're basically "phase 2" of the Shield of Faith and would probably represent an even deeper devotion than what is common in their own ranks, so there is some room for variation.

@Lynata: A nice pet theory there (comparing the Living Saint to a Waaagh). As for the noble duaghter, it wasn't under the pretence of a boarding school. She was entering for life, and the family didn't want that.

Furthermore, as devoted to the cause and faithful as the sisterhood are, no one is immune from political power-play in 40k. While the Ecclessiarchy is more likely to deal with such things, the Sororitas still find themselves playing a part. It was hinted in Enforcer that the novitiate was kept on, not becuase of any special piety on her part, but becuase they wished to demonstrate that who did or did not enter the ranks of the Convent was the jurisdiction of the Sororitas, regardless of any noble's objections.

@Psienesis: As Lynata said, any sign of lacking in faith would be met with punishment and fasting, rather than exile. It's far more likely that a truly unfaithful Sister would eventually join the ranks of the Repentia (or Arco-Flaggelants) rather than simply be let go.

Oh, yes, indeed. It's incredibly rare for people to leave the Sisterhood (or the Commissariat, for that matter) because all they have ever known their entire lives is service to the Imperium. This is not to say that it *couldn't* happen.

Yes, at the outset, the unwilling are not going to get into the Sororitas. They start out as being the best candidates for the job. But people do change... their faith may be as strong as it always was, but they may feel that the Emperor is better served in another manner not provided by the Sororitas, or they may be answering to what they feel is the Emperor inspiring them to do something else.

A Sister may feel the Emperor is calling her to bring His Light to those who live in Darkness in a far-off sector... or in human worlds lost since the Age of Darkness in the Halo Stars or the Jericho Reach. Her faith remains strong and pure... but the Sisterhood has no Ordos in these regions. She becomes a Rogue Trader in the service of the Ecclesiarchy. Still in service to the God-Emperor, just in a way the Sisterhood, as an organization, is ill-equipped to handle.

There is also the fact to remember that the Sororitas only has the one Ordo Militant, the rest are trained in combat, but it's not their primary role. Perhaps one Hospitaler just gets sick (if you will pardon the pun) of the endless tide of ill and injured on a war-torn Hive World. Maybe a Sister Famulous gets tired of the intrigues of courtly and noble life, absolutely disgusted at the corruption within these ranks of Imperial society. A Sister Dialogous gets tired of reading books deemed heretical or warp-tainted or, if not in such a library, she just gets bored of looking after dry, boring illuminated texts that a pack of servitors has been keeping for the last three thousand years; her role is unnecessary.

Those are just a few broad examples, and the path out for Sisters who become weak in their faith is much less rosy (for obvious reasons), but these paths are there (the Repentia or the Oblatia being only two), without becoming a Fallen Sororitas (in which your only real hope is a Recidivist organization or certain breeds of Radical Inquisitors, really... other than death, of course).

Eisenhorn was a psyker. If he truly pulled off AoF ... well, I've heard many good things about the quality of Abnett's books, but I also heard of certain inconsistencies with studio canon, and this seems like something to add to the list, considering that the Shield of Faith is negating psychic powers.

He was, but being a psyker had nothing to do with Acts of Faith. In the first book, he's holding back daemons and warp-creatures with declarations from the Book of the Imperial Creed , various chants and canticles taught to him to repel the Entity From Beyond, etc. etc. and they work.

Later on, in Book 3, he's... been through some stuff. He's done... some things. His faith is no longer pure, nor is his soul. He gets into a face-down with an unrestrained Cherubael (a daemonhost) and attempts to use the Emperor's Warding against the Darkness.

Cherubael's reaction?
"Just words, Gregor. They're just words..."

And then an insane, and insanely faithful, priest comes running up and bashes the daemonhost on the head with a platinum aquila... and the daemonhost is actually injured... but that's besides the point. Point being, Eisenhorn was, by that point, tainted. His faith was weak.

As far as the RPG is concerned, Sister characters don't start with the nifty bits of the Pure Faith talent, either. All of the actual miracles have Pure Faith as a requirement, but require both higher levels in the career path as well as other requirements (no Corruption beyond a couple of points, [very hard in the game], other attributes or talents, certain career-ranks, and so on). The Pure Faith talent, by itself, is nice, but it doesn't really do anything truly fabulous.

Overall, and this is my own interpretation, having a virtual slave-army of "nuns with guns" is suitably grimdark... but I think the idea of them being there, standing before the Gates of Hell itself, flamer in hand and ready to march through, because they want to be there is so very much more grimdark.

When you remove the element of choice from the equation or, rather, when you place the element of choice in such a way that says "yes, this stuff is all horrible and terrible and the Worst Thing Ever... and these people *chose* to be here to fight it" it makes it even more grimdark.

The IG, for example, doesn't quite draw the same sense of dramatic weight because most of them are drafted... they had no real choice in being on some Death World while fighting the forces of Chaos or Renegades or whatever. Not *quite* as Grimdark as the army of nuns-with-guns who come down to this Death World to fight and kill and die because they *want* to.

As Lynata said, any sign of lacking in faith would be met with punishment and fasting, rather than exile. It's far more likely that a truly unfaithful Sister would eventually join the ranks of the Repentia (or Arco-Flaggelants) rather than simply be let go.

Perhaps, but what does the Sororitas do when the punishments and fasting fail to bring their Sister back to the realms of the uber-faithful? Status as an Arco-Flagellant, or even as a Sister Repentia, requires the person to have committed some sin or heresy... not simply saying "You know what? It's been fun... but this isn't for me anymore. I no longer have what it takes" or "I feel the Emperor has called me to another service, one which I cannot perform while a member of the Sororitas, and here is why I feel this way...".

Exile is not what I'm talking about... that implies a forced expulsion from the ranks of the Sisterhood (which doesn't happen, for reasons you've mentioned). This is not the situation, though. This event, the voluntary leaving of the Sororitas, is more akin to a self-imposed exile, though only loosely, in that the person will not be able to return, but the Sororitas holds no ill-will against the individual. They recognize that what they do is not something that anyone/everyone is capable of doing, and it does them no favors to waste the time and energy required to try to force someone to be what they need. After all, it may come to pass that the lives of dozens or hundreds of Sisters relies on the faith and the skill of a single one of their number... would you want to risk having someone in that position who is not totally, 100% committed?

First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.

I completely agree with you on Sisters moving between Ordos, such as a Battle Sister becoming weary of constant warfare and wanting to help the sick of an under-hive as she grows older. But that's it. Nothing I've ever read indicates that Sisters have such autonomy as to leave their Convent at will, or that a "Sorry guys, this just isn't working out anymore" attitude would be seen as acceptable. Remember, we're talking about the Ecclessiarchy, where simply not having enough faith is just as liable to be punished as a faithless act.

Perhaps special leave could be granted if they were still pious, but that would likely involve them being moved to another branch of the Ecclessiarchy. I can't imagine any viable scenario where their 'calling' wouldn't fall under the widespread realms of the many Orders.

First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.

It's happened. I'll get her name when I get back home and have my RT book on hand. There's also the possibility, outside a specific character, that the Ecclesiarchy funds the expedition and buys the ship. Not every RT owns his own ship, after all. Or, perhaps, private investors interested in the potentially lucrative markets available on these human worlds will fund the former Sister and buy the ship themselves. Shoot, look at the wealth televangelists amass in our own world... imagine the wealth of the Cardinals and other religious individuals on certain Hive Worlds and the like.

I can't imagine any viable scenario where their 'calling' wouldn't fall under the widespread realms of the many Orders.

Broadly speaking, there's only 4 Ordos in the Sisterhood: Militant, Dialoguous, Famulous and Hospitaler. All of the other "ordos" (Flaming Rose, Burning Heart, Silver Cup, whatever) are a mix of one, some or all of these 4 divisions.

Neither of these really cover being, say, the Ship's Mistress of a Jovian-class Pilgrim Transport.

Psienesis wrote:A Sister may feel the Emperor is calling her to bring His Light to those who live in Darkness in a far-off sector... or in human worlds lost since the Age of Darkness in the Halo Stars or the Jericho Reach. Her faith remains strong and pure... but the Sisterhood has no Ordos in these regions. She becomes a Rogue Trader in the service of the Ecclesiarchy. Still in service to the God-Emperor, just in a way the Sisterhood, as an organization, is ill-equipped to handle.

Such a character would have to have very specific goal in mind. The Sisterhood is active in almost every possible aspect of Imperial life. So she wants to bring His Light to those who live in darkness in a far-off sector? There's the entire Order Sabine just for that. Human worlds lost in the Jericho Reach? I happen to know that several units of the Sisters Militant are part of the Crusade you are referring to.

Psienesis wrote:As far as the RPG is concerned, Sister characters don't start with the nifty bits of the Pure Faith talent, either. All of the actual miracles have Pure Faith as a requirement, but require both higher levels in the career path as well as other requirements (no Corruption beyond a couple of points, [very hard in the game], other attributes or talents, certain career-ranks, and so on). The Pure Faith talent, by itself, is nice, but it doesn't really do anything truly fabulous.

Oh, I know the RPG and the liberties it takes with the canon. The requirements aren't as hard as you seem to recall, though. Corruption was only relevant for Pure Faith in the Inquisitor's Handbook (which had no Faith Talents) - the Blood of Martyr's version (which has Faith Talents) on the other hand doesn't care for Corruption at all. You could keep casting the (imho rather flawed) Faith spells even if your arm has already turned into a tentacle (solely going by the RAW - I suppose many GMs would intervene). Also, the only requirement to gain a Faith Talent is paying the XP cost at the relevant level, where some Faith Talents require another one as prerequisite. That's about it.

Generally, it's a rather poor pay-off for the increased XP cost and certain talents that are missing but should be there on part of the studio fluff. I find myself not wanting to buy any of them for my current character. In retrospect, I think I should have gone for the IH variant (starting out as novice but being more useful and combat-capable later on). :/

Psienesis wrote:Overall, and this is my own interpretation, having a virtual slave-army of "nuns with guns" is suitably grimdark... but I think the idea of them being there, standing before the Gates of Hell itself, flamer in hand and ready to march through, because they want to be there is so very much more grimdark.

Misunderstanding! In my opinion, the real grimdark is not because they are forced to be there, but because they were made to think they want to be there.

I also think the Imperial Guard comes with quite a bit of dramatic weight especially because they had no choice and they lack equipment that is essentially on par with Marine-gear. Guardsmen just "have to make due" or perish, and the ragged units of grizzled veterans have a sense of grimdark of their own because one knows they've been to hell and back, leaving countless corpses behind, including many a friend. In a way, they (the vets) are the ones who are the real heroes of the Imperium, simply because they are only ordinary humans with balls of steel. The underdog that isn't spoiled by genetic engineering or superior arms & armour, their only refuge being the greater autonomy and individual freedom they have compared to the indoctrinated ranks of the Astartes and Sororitas. In a way, it's a nice balance of narrative aspects... part of why I like the setting so much.

Perhaps, but what does the Sororitas do when the punishments and fasting fail to bring their Sister back to the realms of the uber-faithful? Status as an Arco-Flagellant, or even as a Sister Repentia, requires the person to have committed some sin or heresy... not simply saying "You know what? It's been fun... but this isn't for me anymore. I no longer have what it takes" or "I feel the Emperor has called me to another service, one which I cannot perform while a member of the Sororitas, and here is why I feel this way...".

See, I think that such thinking is already a sin, as the individual has started to doubt her place in the Emperor's great plan and the wisdom of her superiors.

So that she may it all times carry out her sacred duties to her Order and Our Lord the Emperor, it is fitting that all Sisters obey their Superior, strictly and in all things. As soon as an order is issued by a Superior, that order should be carried out as if the blessed Dominica herself had commanded it, for it is written - 'Her will be done'
- Rule CCXXXIX, the Rule of the Sororitas. Volume XXV

Should any Sister, in her deeds, words or thoughts, in peace or at war in any way commit a sin, she should willingly and immediately make her fault known to her Superior, to make amends with a pure heart. And if she does not usually fail in this matter, let her be given but a week's penance, but if her sin is great let her go apart from the company of her Sisters, so that she may not sit at table with them, nor kneel in prayer, nor fight the Emperor's foes at their side. Let her go all but alone, submitting herself to the will of the almighty God-Emperor of Mankind. Let her don the penitent hood and take up the ceremonial eviscerator, and seek her redemption upon the fold of battle.
- Rule CCCLII, the Rule of the Sororitas Volume VI

This is an interesting and enjoyable debate, by the way. Thanks.

We're not, unfortunately, privy to the entirety of what the Ecclesiarchy, in general, or specific Orders, individually, consider sins or heresies. As with so much else in the Imperium, it probably falls to the well-used "Depends on the world you're on" answer.

It may be, in some Orders, that questioning one's faith is a High Heresy... in others, perhaps not. Probably depends on the temperament of the Canoness. Going back to the examples that I used above, a Canoness of a particular disposition may not take the hard-line stance and may see, in the confession of a Sister who believes that she has a calling outside the Sororitas, that the God-Emperor does, indeed, have a plan for this woman, and that plan does not include the Sororitas. Or may see the Hand of the Emperor at work in the idea of a Sister-turned-Rogue-Trader... and may see herself as a facilitator, or hindrance, to this Divine Plan.

Psienesis wrote:

First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.

It's happened. I'll get her name when I get back home and have my RT book on hand. There's also the possibility, outside a specific character, that the Ecclesiarchy funds the expedition and buys the ship. Not every RT owns his own ship, after all. Or, perhaps, private investors interested in the potentially lucrative markets available on these human worlds will fund the former Sister and buy the ship themselves. Shoot, look at the wealth televangelists amass in our own world... imagine the wealth of the Cardinals and other religious individuals on certain Hive Worlds and the like.

Oh the wealth of the Ecclessiarchy is monumental. They can't own ships though, the Vandire Heresy and Decree Passive saw to that.

I could certainly see a Rouge Trader that works closely with the Ecclesiarchy, perhaps with a Sister Representative or even a contigent of them on board. But I fail to see how an ex-sister would end up Captaining one, short of finding a fortune and deserting from the Convent.

I can't imagine any viable scenario where their 'calling' wouldn't fall under the widespread realms of the many Orders.

Broadly speaking, there's only 4 Ordos in the Sisterhood: Militant, Dialoguous, Famulous and Hospitaler. All of the other "ordos" (Flaming Rose, Burning Heart, Silver Cup, whatever) are a mix of one, some or all of these 4 divisions.

Neither of these really cover being, say, the Ship's Mistress of a Jovian-class Pilgrim Transport.

Actually, Dark Heresy (and the WH codex) both say that there are many, many more Orders than Militant/Dialogous/Famulous/Hospitallier. Enforcer also mentions a few more Ordos, some do cleansing missions for ships that had a rough warp travel, some are concerned with securing or checking the authenicity of relics and sacred artifacts. The Ordos is a lot more extensive than just what is represented by the models.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Psienesis wrote:

First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.

It's happened. I'll get her name when I get back home and have my RT book on hand. There's also the possibility, outside a specific character, that the Ecclesiarchy funds the expedition and buys the ship. Not every RT owns his own ship, after all. Or, perhaps, private investors interested in the potentially lucrative markets available on these human worlds will fund the former Sister and buy the ship themselves. Shoot, look at the wealth televangelists amass in our own world... imagine the wealth of the Cardinals and other religious individuals on certain Hive Worlds and the like.

Oh the wealth of the Ecclessiarchy is monumental. They can't own ships though, the Vandire Heresy and Decree Passive saw to that.

I could certainly see a Rouge Trader that works closely with the Ecclesiarchy, perhaps with a Sister Representative or even a contigent of them on board. But I fail to see how an ex-sister would end up Captaining one, short of finding a fortune and deserting from the Convent.

When the whole organization is set up to obey the letter of the law rather than the spirit (no Men under Arms, etc) I could totally see some minor order somewhere with deep pockets saying "Hey, as an organization, we can't have any ships. But good Sister Sally here can, she's just a private citizen. I'll arrange for her to receive a large monetary gift on her next birthday, you work on securing her a warrant of trade"

Hmmm, now there's an idea. Actually, it's brilliant (in terms of the decree passive). I don't think it's quite where Psinesis was going with the subject, but I can certainly see it happening. Still, it's not like the Sister is leaving solely on her violition.

Psienesis wrote:We're not, unfortunately, privy to the entirety of what the Ecclesiarchy, in general, or specific Orders, individually, consider sins or heresies. As with so much else in the Imperium, it probably falls to the well-used "Depends on the world you're on" answer.

That'd be more of a case of missing information here. The Adepta Sororitas are a surprisingly uniform organization, compared to the Imperial Guard or the Space Marines:

As the Orders are primarily based together at one of these two sites the Sisterhood as a whole is a far more homogenous organisation than many other institutions of the Imperium, such as the Adeptus Astartes or the Imperial Guard. Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller. It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.

It has been observed that the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. Such differences arise, in the case of the Astartes, from the strong genetic link with the Chapter's Primarch or, in the case of the Imperial Guard, as a result of combat doctrines unique to the culture from which the regiment was raised. The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of their doctrines to a single source - the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor - and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time.

Despite the lack of significant divergences between the Orders Militant in terms of organisation and combat doctrine, there is a degree of variance to be found within the teachings of the founders of the Orders, which tends to reflect the outlook of each Founding Saint. For example, the Sisters of the Order of Our Martyred Lady can be said to reflect the vengeful nature of their patron, Saint Katherine, while the Sisters of the Order the Bloody Rose share the brooding, quick to anger nature of Saint Mina.

Also, I've read that the Sisterhood actually does have a fleet of ships (first mentioned in their very first appearance in 40k back in 1E, occasionally mentioned later on) - it's just that they're rapid deployment troop transports and landers for quickly moving around, not battlecruisers to engage in space combat with. Although lightly armed to fend off minor annoyances such as a small pirate, they still require Navy protection for safe passage through a warzone. Apparently, the Navy protested against Sisterhood ships being armed at all (seeing that as an encroachment onto their territory), but had no choice other than to grudgingly accept defensive weaponry due to the Navy not being able/willing to provide the resources necessary for all-time escort coverage.

Occasionally you also have Navy warships seconded to the Ecclesiarchy, though I wouldn't think that the Sisters would "impede" their day-to-day operations by hijacking important positions on the ship. The most I could think of would be some sort of advisor position or liaison. That said, Sisters Famulous regularly work with Navy battlegroups and Missionarius Galaxia exploration fleets to provide linguistic assistance, both for encountering new languages as well as to handle differences in dialect between various groups within the Imperial forces, seeing that larger formations are often drawn together from several worlds, many of whom have their own local tongue and rank-and-file crewmen/guardsmen/workers unable to speak Imperial Gothic. Just to throw in a few more options for Sisters wishing to travel. And that's not even touching the Orders' Militant peacetime task of protecting pilgrim routes!