Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

Oh I misunderstood what you were saying. You're saying SM doctrines are so powerful it makes soup less viable, whereas SoB don't lose as much in soup.

Yes, exactly! And as I, for one, am planning to use my new shiny SoB as an part of an larger Imperial alliance this is good news.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am at least seeing good stuff with the new AOF Mechanic - its interesting and having rolled so many 1's at so many bad times - this would be useful indeed.

We don't know anything about Acts of Faith yet. Miracles seem to be in addition to AoF.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am at least seeing good stuff with the new AOF Mechanic - its interesting and having rolled so many 1's at so many bad times - this would be useful indeed.

We don't know anything about Acts of Faith yet. Miracles seem to be in addition to AoF.

Really? I read it as the dice injection/replacement as being the "Acts of Faith".

Sister prays for a miracle, and her single shot melta actually lands a wound.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am at least seeing good stuff with the new AOF Mechanic - its interesting and having rolled so many 1's at so many bad times - this would be useful indeed.

We don't know anything about Acts of Faith yet. Miracles seem to be in addition to AoF.

Really? I read it as the dice injection/replacement as being the "Acts of Faith".

Sister prays for a miracle, and her single shot melta actually lands a wound.

On the image for Gaining Miracle Dice, "Purity: A psychic power is resisted by a unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability (without performing and Act of Faith to do so)."

This implies that AoF is not only a keyword/ability but it's also something that a unit can perform, and that there is an AoF that denies psychic powers since they had to have an exception that specifies the denial AoF doesn't grant a miracle die.

I get the impression that spending a Miracle Die is the Act of Faith. That wording simply means that you don't get a Miracle Die for spending a miracle die to auto set the roll to something that earns you a Miracle Die.

They're not going to eliminate Acts of Faith. They're an army staple.

 LunarSol wrote:
I get the impression that spending a Miracle Die is the Act of Faith. That wording simply means that you don't get a Miracle Die for spending a miracle die to auto set the roll to something that earns you a Miracle Die.

Yeah I think this is it. Honestly I like it better than way, it gets rough keeping track of all the things your units can do.

This is nice and simple.

They're not going to eliminate Acts of Faith. They're an army staple.

They're not. They just work completely differently

Honestly imo this is a better system than the "stratagem that only works something" of previous incarnations.

 LunarSol wrote:
I get the impression that spending a Miracle Die is the Act of Faith. That wording simply means that you don't get a Miracle Die for spending a miracle die to auto set the roll to something that earns you a Miracle Die.

This is how I read it as well.

I love the idea of Miracle Dice. They work thematically with the army and anything that would be similar to the old Acts of Faith could be rolled into Stratagems (which are just jacked up 4th ed. AoF anyways). I like it.

I agree with Lunar and Pichu. Using a Miracle Die seems to be "performing and Act of Faith." My guess is the things that used to be Acts of Faith will now be stratagems. On the topic of monodex buff, I love it! Both monodex and soup should be viable playstyles. I haven't followed 40k very closely lately, so I wasn't aware of SM getting a monodex buff, but I actually like that it's almost mandatory for them (despite my previous sentence). It seems fluffy to me that Marines work best when working with other Marines.

Looks like old acts of faith become the Sacred Rites, and Miracle Dice are indeed the new acts of faith. Now it's just a keyword, apparently.

Yeah, it's a complete new system and indeed, having a mechanism akind to Disciples of Tzeentch in AoS is quite powerful. Especially if they have stratagems helping to gain more/change the result rolled in Miracle Dice.

Togusa wrote:So I find it interesting that GW has been able to pump out this codex, all these new models, and tanks in less than 2 years.

I am really starting to wonder if the community played GW or if GW played the community...

Maybe a little bit of both?

I really like the Miracle dice mechanic and cant wait to see what else is in store for us.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Togusa wrote:So I find it interesting that GW has been able to pump out this codex, all these new models, and tanks in less than 2 years.

I am really starting to wonder if the community played GW or if GW played the community...

Maybe a little bit of both?

I really like the Miracle dice mechanic and cant wait to see what else is in store for us.

Never assume malice when incompetence is an adequate explanation

 Sarouan wrote:
Looks like old acts of faith become the Sacred Rites, and Miracle Dice are indeed the new acts of faith. Now it's just a keyword, apparently.

Couldn't disagree more. Tomorrow we'll probably get to see a couple Order Convictions and AoFs. The used the phrase 'perform an Act of Faith' today. They wouldn't bother calling them Miracles if they were also Acts of Faith.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
Looks like old acts of faith become the Sacred Rites, and Miracle Dice are indeed the new acts of faith. Now it's just a keyword, apparently.

Couldn't disagree more. Tomorrow we'll probably get to see a couple Order Convictions and AoFs. The used the phrase 'perform an Act of Faith' today. They wouldn't bother calling them Miracles if they were also Acts of Faith.

In our unboxing of the Sisters of Battle Army Set, we mentioned the inclusion of 12 Miracle dice. These dice are kept to one side and accrued over the course of the battle as certain circumstances are met, and they’re expended to channel the Acts of Faith

Each time you earn a Miracle dice, you roll it and add it to your pool, while retaining its score. You can then expend these dice in place of certain rolls (hit and wound rolls, saving throws, and more) later in the battle to ensure you get the exact result you need, when you need it.

This seems to be pretty unequivocal here. If there was more I'd expect them to say something to the effect of "expend them in place of certain rolls, or to trigger other abilities we'll cover later".

When has GW ever been this coy about a rule mechanic? They've been turning every knob possible to build hype. Why would they omit an entire subset of this functionality?

Not trying to be a stinker about this, just don't want you to be disappointed when they don't materialize. If I'm wrong I'll be perfectly fine with it.

Just don't think I am

Wheee... so much to consider. Off the cuff:

It does seem that "Acts of Faith" is a keyword that qualifies units to use the mechanism and also the name for using the mechanism, which appears to be driven by "Miracle Dice." The exclusion for the Purity and Valor applications is needed so that in the Psychic and Morale phases the Sororitas player can't just apply a suitable die from the pool, re-roll it, and put it back in the pool. Only naturally achieved conditions win you an extra Miracle Die. I could be totally wrong, but that's how I read it-- AoF equals Miracle Dice-- so I'm not holding my breath for an unseen AoF mechanism beyond this.

Good analysis on the Miracle Dice this page and last... I agree they'll almost always be useful, some more than others. When I've had games go south on me, it's usually an entire shooting phase somewhere in Turn 1 or 2 that fails to deliver, and this seems like a nice safeguard against that.

I'm not unhappy with the old AoFs (by name) as the new Sacred Rites. Depending on how nerfed the others are, they may yet be both good and flavorful, and at least you can both tailor your list to them and adapt/gamble with them on the fly, a nice set of options.

Shield of Faith continues to be pretty counter-intuitive on paper, but I assume there will still be a relic to make it useful, and maybe a stratagem or two as well. I love the Brazier as my default relic to turn SoF into something meaningful when I'm up against Thousand Sons, but it's not a wasted resource when I swap it for something more appropriate against AdMech. As long as those options exist, I'm content.

Very excited to see the rest of the Datasheets, Stratagems, and Orders Convictions. I'm hoping for some special weapons enhancements to maximize the full range of loadouts, especially for Dominions and Seraphim, a Big HQ/Little HQ combo, and some good synergy between Orders and Rites. It feels at first glance like there's nothing gamebreakingly good, but that there's lots of little variables to tweak and some controls for the fandom elements of the game, which will put the emphasis on list building and game play, not finicky dice or lopsided matchups.

I'm pretty optimistic so far!

interesting mechanic with the miricle dice. Bit nuts its perphase and a free one.

So if you never used any and maxed out, by turn 4 you'd have 16 dice lined up... seems a bit book keepy. I'm sure it'll pan out that you use them often and GW will release tokens like GSC or you can homebrew some

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
Looks like old acts of faith become the Sacred Rites, and Miracle Dice are indeed the new acts of faith. Now it's just a keyword, apparently.

Couldn't disagree more. Tomorrow we'll probably get to see a couple Order Convictions and AoFs. The used the phrase 'perform an Act of Faith' today. They wouldn't bother calling them Miracles if they were also Acts of Faith.

In our unboxing of the Sisters of Battle Army Set, we mentioned the inclusion of 12 Miracle dice. These dice are kept to one side and accrued over the course of the battle as certain circumstances are met, and they’re expended to channel the Acts of Faith

Each time you earn a Miracle dice, you roll it and add it to your pool, while retaining its score. You can then expend these dice in place of certain rolls (hit and wound rolls, saving throws, and more) later in the battle to ensure you get the exact result you need, when you need it.

This seems to be pretty unequivocal here. If there was more I'd expect them to say something to the effect of "expend them in place of certain rolls, or to trigger other abilities we'll cover later".

When has GW ever been this coy about a rule mechanic? They've been turning every knob possible to build hype. Why would they omit an entire subset of this functionality?

Not trying to be a stinker about this, just don't want you to be disappointed when they don't materialize. If I'm wrong I'll be perfectly fine with it.

Just don't think I am

Fair enough. That still doesn't answer the question how having a dice you know the number on can be equivocated to a Deny the Witch act of faith.

As for my hunch, I remain faithful.

Simple. Your opponent manifest a power with a result of 5. You use an Act of Faith to place a 6 instead of rolling.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
Looks like old acts of faith become the Sacred Rites, and Miracle Dice are indeed the new acts of faith. Now it's just a keyword, apparently.

Couldn't disagree more. Tomorrow we'll probably get to see a couple Order Convictions and AoFs. The used the phrase 'perform an Act of Faith' today. They wouldn't bother calling them Miracles if they were also Acts of Faith.

In our unboxing of the Sisters of Battle Army Set, we mentioned the inclusion of 12 Miracle dice. These dice are kept to one side and accrued over the course of the battle as certain circumstances are met, and they’re expended to channel the Acts of Faith

Each time you earn a Miracle dice, you roll it and add it to your pool, while retaining its score. You can then expend these dice in place of certain rolls (hit and wound rolls, saving throws, and more) later in the battle to ensure you get the exact result you need, when you need it.

This seems to be pretty unequivocal here. If there was more I'd expect them to say something to the effect of "expend them in place of certain rolls, or to trigger other abilities we'll cover later".

When has GW ever been this coy about a rule mechanic? They've been turning every knob possible to build hype. Why would they omit an entire subset of this functionality?

Not trying to be a stinker about this, just don't want you to be disappointed when they don't materialize. If I'm wrong I'll be perfectly fine with it.

Just don't think I am

Fair enough. That still doesn't answer the question how having a dice you know the number on can be equivocated to a Deny the Witch act of faith.

As for my hunch, I remain faithful.

Because you could use that dice to pass the Deny the Witch roll.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
Looks like old acts of faith become the Sacred Rites, and Miracle Dice are indeed the new acts of faith. Now it's just a keyword, apparently.

Couldn't disagree more. Tomorrow we'll probably get to see a couple Order Convictions and AoFs. The used the phrase 'perform an Act of Faith' today. They wouldn't bother calling them Miracles if they were also Acts of Faith.

In our unboxing of the Sisters of Battle Army Set, we mentioned the inclusion of 12 Miracle dice. These dice are kept to one side and accrued over the course of the battle as certain circumstances are met, and they’re expended to channel the Acts of Faith

Each time you earn a Miracle dice, you roll it and add it to your pool, while retaining its score. You can then expend these dice in place of certain rolls (hit and wound rolls, saving throws, and more) later in the battle to ensure you get the exact result you need, when you need it.

This seems to be pretty unequivocal here. If there was more I'd expect them to say something to the effect of "expend them in place of certain rolls, or to trigger other abilities we'll cover later".

When has GW ever been this coy about a rule mechanic? They've been turning every knob possible to build hype. Why would they omit an entire subset of this functionality?

Not trying to be a stinker about this, just don't want you to be disappointed when they don't materialize. If I'm wrong I'll be perfectly fine with it.

Just don't think I am

Fair enough. That still doesn't answer the question how having a dice you know the number on can be equivocated to a Deny the Witch act of faith.

As for my hunch, I remain faithful.

Because you could use that dice to pass the Deny the Witch roll.

Only if it's a 5 or lower and you have a 6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
interesting mechanic with the miricle dice. Bit nuts its perphase and a free one.

So if you never used any and maxed out, by turn 4 you'd have 16 dice lined up... seems a bit book keepy. I'm sure it'll pan out that you use them often and GW will release tokens like GSC or you can homebrew some

16 dice on turn 4 is worth about 3 turn 1 dice unfortunately.

The deny thing should just work if you roll a six regardless of what the opponent rolled.

 Sarouan wrote:
Looks like old acts of faith become the Sacred Rites, and Miracle Dice are indeed the new acts of faith. Now it's just a keyword, apparently.

Yeah, it's a complete new system and indeed, having a mechanism akind to Disciples of Tzeentch in AoS is quite powerful. Especially if they have stratagems helping to gain more/change the result rolled in Miracle Dice.

In Tzeentch you get NINE dice to start and can generate more. Here realistically you're getting 2 per turn so it's quite a bit weaker than tzeentch's.

I quite like the miracle dice idea, but then my dice hate me and for once my exorcist might actually fire a decent amount of shots when I want it to.

I'll miss the old styles AoF but GW have always really struggled to get them right so I won't miss them.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I quite like the miracle dice idea, but then my dice hate me and for once my exorcist might actually fire a decent amount of shots when I want it to.

I'll miss the old styles AoF but GW have always really struggled to get them right so I won't miss them.

Only if Exorcists can use AoFs now. I'm hoping they do, as it seems like GW learnt their lesson of excluding entire unit types from faction specific rules, but we'll see.

Given that its no longer a additional action and effectively a reroll I'd hope vehicles benefit.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Given that its no longer a additional action and effectively a reroll I'd hope vehicles benefit.

it didn't make sense they didn't before tbh.

Sort of like SM vehicles not benefiting from Chapter Tactics. There's a Sister driving the tank. Is GW saying only the unfaithful get to drive?

 EnTyme wrote:
Sort of like SM vehicles not benefiting from Chapter Tactics. There's a Sister driving the tank. Is GW saying only the unfaithful get to drive?

You ever get stuck in traffic? A lot of blaspheming happens behind the wheel...

Okay, here's a new line of discussion, wth is going to happen to ebon chalice, Our Martyred lady, and fiery heart, as well as Vessels of the emerpor's will, fire and fury, and celestine's warlord trait?

All of those revolved around the old AoF system, so they have to be different now.

OoML could add more miracle dice when you kill units and stay mostly the same, but how many? Same with Fiery heart and units that die.

Ebon chalice would have to be totally different.

Vessels doesn't make any sense anymore so what will the 3cp BOOM strat be?

Fire and fury could have the same effect but just not require an AoF.

Celestine could give an extra dice each round which would be HUGE.

ERJAK wrote:
Okay, here's a new line of discussion, wth is going to happen to ebon chalice, Our Martyred lady, and fiery heart, as well as Vessels of the emerpor's will, fire and fury, and celestine's warlord trait?

All of those revolved around the old AoF system, so they have to be different now.

OoML could add more miracle dice when you kill units and stay mostly the same, but how many? Same with Fiery heart and units that die.

Ebon chalice would have to be totally different.

Vessels doesn't make any sense anymore so what will the 3cp BOOM strat be?

Fire and fury could have the same effect but just not require an AoF.

Celestine could give an extra dice each round which would be HUGE.

I feel like at this point the beta dex will only have the datasheets in common with the final dex.