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 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
We had a pretty productive conversation today and I'm ready to fill their inbox with feedback.

Can you ask them when the characters will pop up?

I have to say, although obviously the complaints are totally 100% valid, things like this do make me a little hesitant about using Kickstarter. I've been working on a board game and had considered using it when it was ready to be produced, to hopefully raise funds for the initial run, or for molding, etc (although it'd be nice to have molding done beforehand).

But the more I see things like this, the more I almost think it's better to take a loan, work on it behind the scenes, and then have something awesome to reveal to folks who can then purchase it shortly afterwards.

Obviously, some projects just aren't possible without something like KS because the person wouldn't qualify for the loan needed... and also obviously, a lot of the negative press can be avoided with good communication. But it's still a cautionary tale for me, so I'm watching these things with a lot of interest to learn what to do and not to do in running a campaign! And also, whether it makes sense to even run one, or to go with a traditional funding route, when the time comes.

/Kickstarters as related to gaming companies tangent

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
So I had a pretty long conversation with some of the RH team, and I do have an answer for you guys as far as where the heck the WIPs are.

"Because we are working on all the Troops soldiers at the same time. Instead of working on one soldier at a time and taking her to the finish line, we are pushing the entire squadron forward inch by inch. So most of the WIPs we would issue would be totally misleading: the details that most backers would focus on are only fixed in the end, such as an ugly face (we prepare the heads separately and put them on at the end), too big boobs (for example, we do all the sculpts and then make changes once we place them all side by side to ensure continuity and consistency), wrong weapons (we often use the same weapon for all the minis as 'place-holders', and switch to the correct weapons for each individual mini on the last days), etc. So you can imagine the number of comments, complaints, scare, and worse we'd have to deal with if we were to show such WIPs. We just don't have the manpower to handle it. Plus, many of those worries are groundless, because all these issues are planned to be fixed in the end anyway."

They had thought this had been explained in a prior update when they initially talked about their non-linear work flow.

Try as I might to avoid belittling them, this seems almost comical in how they are going about doing things. They may call it "non-linear workflow", it would seem better to say "insulated workflow". That is, rather then allow for the public to see and critique the organic creative process, they are managing exposure in such a way that either a) everything is perfect (which they seem to be counting on), or b) they are going to present their final, polished versions of everything all at once... and be hit with a tidal wave of criticism because no single element was subject to criticism beforehand.

It's almost amusing how they are going about this: rather then accept criticism in iterative waves, they are inviting criticism on all elements at the same time. Which is doubly foolish given their seeming complete emotional disintegration when presented with criticism in an earlier instance.

Of course, there is another, even more likely (and yet annoying) possibility: that what will be presented is what will be, with no real opportunity for criticism to be taken. That would seem to be the only logical reason to manage your workflow in the way they are currently doing it.

 BrookM wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
We had a pretty productive conversation today and I'm ready to fill their inbox with feedback.

Can you ask them when the characters will pop up?

Heroines are planned to pop up quite regularly once the Troops are done. Many are virtually done and just need finishing touches like weapons and faces. So once the trooper update's out of the way, we should start moving right along quite regularly. (Hopefully.)

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
So I had a pretty long conversation with some of the RH team, and I do have an answer for you guys as far as where the heck the WIPs are.

"Because we are working on all the Troops soldiers at the same time. Instead of working on one soldier at a time and taking her to the finish line, we are pushing the entire squadron forward inch by inch. So most of the WIPs we would issue would be totally misleading: the details that most backers would focus on are only fixed in the end, such as an ugly face (we prepare the heads separately and put them on at the end), too big boobs (for example, we do all the sculpts and then make changes once we place them all side by side to ensure continuity and consistency), wrong weapons (we often use the same weapon for all the minis as 'place-holders', and switch to the correct weapons for each individual mini on the last days), etc. So you can imagine the number of comments, complaints, scare, and worse we'd have to deal with if we were to show such WIPs. We just don't have the manpower to handle it. Plus, many of those worries are groundless, because all these issues are planned to be fixed in the end anyway."

They had thought this had been explained in a prior update when they initially talked about their non-linear work flow.

Try as I might to avoid belittling them, this seems almost comical in how they are going about doing things. They may call it "non-linear workflow", it would seem better to say "insulated workflow". That is, rather then allow for the public to see and critique the organic creative process, they are managing exposure in such a way that either a) everything is perfect (which they seem to be counting on), or b) they are going to present their final, polished versions of everything all at once... and be hit with a tidal wave of criticism because no single element was subject to criticism beforehand.

It's almost amusing how they are going about this: rather then accept criticism in iterative waves, they are inviting criticism on all elements at the same time. Which is doubly foolish given their seeming complete emotional disintegration when presented with criticism in an earlier instance.

Of course, there is another, even more likely (and yet annoying) possibility: that what will be presented is what will be, with no real opportunity for criticism to be taken. That would seem to be the only logical reason to manage your workflow in the way they are currently doing it.

Not even... if I may build on your analysis? If they really wanted to invite community constructive criticism. Has anyone here been around during the Warzone KS? Aside from Ronin and Taarnak, I mean. They worked on squads as a unit, tweaking stuff not mini by mini, but on the whole group at the same time. They also had placeholder items, and missing details. And guess what? We commented, they changed stuff and the minis turned out really nice. YMMV of course, but that workflow just sounds exactly like RH is doing it, and if it's so earth-shattering in their minds, it may say something about their narcissism, rather than their real, objective genius. Yeah, I said it, you can call me out on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again, KalashnikovMarine: I have nothing but the utmost respect for you man, I don,t want any of this to be even misconstrued as being aimed at you. And you and the other RHeralds are quite courageous in doing your job, good apple or bad apple.

We good dude, I don't think anyone's tried to shoot the messenger yet. Not like it'd do any good any way, I have approximately 0% more influence on RH then any other backer.

I wonder if there is a, shall we say, Amy's Baking Company element at play here.

I'm not tracking.

There is an episode of Gordon Ramsay where he goes to Amy's Baking Company. You can watch the full episode here for free if you like, and I'd recommend you do so because it's very entertaining even if you do not watch these sorts of shows, as I myself do not.

Although there are many, many issues on display here, one of the really crucial ones is that the chef, Amy, has previously thrown a huge fit when anyone tells her something was wrong with the cooking. As a result, no one wants to give her any negative feedback, and the cooking suffers because she isn't aware there is a problem at all.

I wonder if the PR people - I'm being generous here and assuming there is a team member who does so - find communications with the actual team so difficult some of the data gets massaged. I mean, this is wholly speculation, but in the absence of anything tangible I think we can profitably engage in speculation, right?

I'm interested to see how the models play out, but I'm not thinking they are going to show us the models, then go back and change them based on feedback. I think the next reveal is probably going to be what we get. While there's been a few instances where they have gone different routes than I would have, I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.

In other news, don't miss Kevin Behrendt's contribution to the Toughest Tales of the Galaxy on Geekly Devotionals.

 Jimsolo wrote:
, I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.

Sarcasm?

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
We had a pretty productive conversation today and I'm ready to fill their inbox with feedback.

Can you ask them when the characters will pop up?

Heroines are planned to pop up quite regularly once the Troops are done. Many are virtually done and just need finishing touches like weapons and faces. So once the trooper update's out of the way, we should start moving right along quite regularly. (Hopefully.)

So, are they wave 2 or wave 3?

From the updates we last saw there will be heroines in wave one. I'd imagine we'll be seeing them spread across all three waves. (If it is indeed three waves) I'll make sure to ask, but I probably won't be able to get you guys any details, I'll push for info in that direction (an outline of what is being scheduled for what wave that is) for das uber update though.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
, I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.

Sarcasm?

No, quite genuine. I've actually NEVER seen a game company give two farts about the feedback they got before. (Certainly never any feedback I've been a part of.) Any feedback I've ever participated in has gotten either a complete cold shoulder (like from Games Workshop) or a 'thanks for buying our merchandise, now piss off' form letter (like White Wolf). The fact that RH has made any alterations, ever, at all, puts them ahead of the pack in my own personal experience. Obviously everyone else has had some different experiences.

Pffft, it still pales in comparison to Kingdom Death: Monster and Bombshell Babes in my opinion.

They have taken criticism before and decided that we aren't ready for anything just yet. That's the vibe I've gotten from all of this. I'm thinking they weren't prepared for a diverse community to sound off so loudly, because hey, they have our money, of course we're going to be loud and raging about what we get. (See wot I did thar?)

Well, there are times during the KS that they could be seen to have reacted to backer feedback, though some of those same things could have been planned in advance to keep the money flowing into the pledge total.

As for what we'll see in the update with renders / prints (it's the next update, coming soon, honest) they're likely not going to want to make any changes. Especially if they're talking about showing us the masters. It'd also cause too much of a delay if they had to go back and fix 20% of the sculpting on a number of the models.

I'm guessing the 80% thing is something they'll never live down now.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
, I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.

Sarcasm?

No, quite genuine. I've actually NEVER seen a game company give two farts about the feedback they got before. (Certainly never any feedback I've been a part of.) Any feedback I've ever participated in has gotten either a complete cold shoulder (like from Games Workshop) or a 'thanks for buying our merchandise, now piss off' form letter (like White Wolf). The fact that RH has made any alterations, ever, at all, puts them ahead of the pack in my own personal experience. Obviously everyone else has had some different experiences.

Ouch. I've had to deal with White Wolf as well. It wasn't as pleasant as I could have hoped for. But Prodos have done a massive amount of change based on customer feedback for Warzone. Wild West Exodus altered sculpts to respond to criticism, Patrick the Sculptdude scraped a whole head because we all said it was wee too big. Mark Mondragon actually polled his backers on the skirting/tabards of his heavy infantry...Paulson Games is always open to suggestions and willing to discuss issues with both his game and minis with customers.

I think big companies can insulate themselves from customer feedback because what's one voice (or a few thousand on a glorious forum like ours) compared to the millions of customers out there buying. Big companies. Did you hear those two words, Raginshiroz?

 Jimsolo wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
, I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.

Sarcasm?

No, quite genuine. I've actually NEVER seen a game company give two farts about the feedback they got before. (Certainly never any feedback I've been a part of.) Any feedback I've ever participated in has gotten either a complete cold shoulder (like from Games Workshop) or a 'thanks for buying our merchandise, now piss off' form letter (like White Wolf). The fact that RH has made any alterations, ever, at all, puts them ahead of the pack in my own personal experience. Obviously everyone else has had some different experiences.

This must be the first KS involving not yet produced sculpture then. Pretty much every one that I've been a part of has been open to and responded to back critique. And while not all of them acted upon some of the critiques, none of them (WWX, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, Darklands) have refused to stop shoping WiPs because they're too stupid or lazy to properly respond to critiques.

And I'm sorry, I have to call out their 'process:' so in that reply, they basically say they do a gakky job sculpting faces and boobs first.... On purpose? And then go back and fix them at the end? That doesn't make any fething sense at all.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
, I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.

Sarcasm?

No, quite genuine. I've actually NEVER seen a game company give two farts about the feedback they got before. (Certainly never any feedback I've been a part of.) Any feedback I've ever participated in has gotten either a complete cold shoulder (like from Games Workshop) or a 'thanks for buying our merchandise, now piss off' form letter (like White Wolf). The fact that RH has made any alterations, ever, at all, puts them ahead of the pack in my own personal experience. Obviously everyone else has had some different experiences.

This must be the first KS involving not yet produced sculpture then. Pretty much every one that I've been a part of has been open to and responded to back critique. And while not all of them acted upon some of the critiques, none of them (WWX, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, Darklands) have refused to stop shoping WiPs because they're too stupid or lazy to properly respond to critiques.

And I'm sorry, I have to call out their 'process:' so in that reply, they basically say they do a gakky job sculpting faces and boobs first.... On purpose? And then go back and fix them at the end? That doesn't make any fething sense at all.

Not to pile on Jim, but taking into account backer feedback and polling them is actually relatively common, especially when the matters are not about elements central to the artistic vision; for example, consider this representative update from KD:M, where Poots is soliciting opinions on custom dice, and at the same time showing off several WIPs.

Poots understands that insight into the process is exactly one of the things that attracts people into backing a project on kickstarter, so he pulls back the curtain little bit,

What they probably meant, and I'm being generous here, is that they use a generic female form, and then tweak the body after the details and skins have been added.

The thing is it's not that hard to articulate, and makes sense when it is said that way. They way they said it, yeah, it makes them sound like dufusses.

Oh Buzz, I'd forgotten about the Kingdom Death butt guide that Poots did. That was one of my favorite updates ever. It really was.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
So I had a pretty long conversation with some of the RH team, and I do have an answer for you guys as far as where the heck the WIPs are.

"Because we are working on all the Troops soldiers at the same time. Instead of working on one soldier at a time and taking her to the finish line, we are pushing the entire squadron forward inch by inch. So most of the WIPs we would issue would be totally misleading: the details that most backers would focus on are only fixed in the end, such as an ugly face (we prepare the heads separately and put them on at the end), too big boobs (for example, we do all the sculpts and then make changes once we place them all side by side to ensure continuity and consistency), wrong weapons (we often use the same weapon for all the minis as 'place-holders', and switch to the correct weapons for each individual mini on the last days), etc. So you can imagine the number of comments, complaints, scare, and worse we'd have to deal with if we were to show such WIPs. We just don't have the manpower to handle it. Plus, many of those worries are groundless, because all these issues are planned to be fixed in the end anyway."

They had thought this had been explained in a prior update when they initially talked about their non-linear work flow.

You know, the bit you just quoted to us might be better served as part of an official update. (well, if they removed the "our backers are morons" bit at the end). You know, information that gives backers a bit of credit and explains things. I guess such details on their non-linear workflow may be a trade secret? Imagine what could happen if someone like GW found out this info!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Taarnak wrote:
I do like to poke at this particular bear every now and again tough, and here is why: You folks, as Kickstarter backers, have floated these fools a gigantic, interest-free loan. Yes you are technically donating, I get that. But look at it this way: If they had gotten a loan for this money for a bank, they would have likely needed to put up some hefty collateral, firstly. Secondly, they would at the very least likely have to be making repayments at this point. Then there is the fact that they would be paying interest; a lot of it.

So, in exchange for your no-interest loan you are owed, at minimum, regular progress reports and a look at what you have been paying for. Until more accountability is demanded by us, as Kickstarter "consumers" we will have more bs like RH has given, and total screw ups like the Mantic Basilean Man-at-Arms figures.

Also, the very notion that they have invented something new with digital sculpting is hilariously out of touch.

Nothing against, or meant towards you sir. Hope you didn't take it that way.

~Eric

Everything you said could be pointed at McCMON and Sedition Wars as well, though. In all honesty, and with the benefit of hindsight, I feel the bigger fool for having backed McVey (sadly, for a very large amount). While RH may be RDBs in many ways, I do have faith that their end product will be way beyond what was delivered by Sedition Wars.

 Azazelx wrote:

Everything you said could be pointed at McCMON and Sedition Wars as well, though. In all honesty, and with the benefit of hindsight, I feel the bigger fool for having backed McVey (sadly, for a very large amount). While RH may be RDBs in many ways, I do have faith that their end product will be way beyond what was delivered by Sedition Wars.

Truth be told, I don't think anyone expected there to be as many problems with Sedition Wars as there were. I mean, for me, the biggest drawing point WAS the McVey name, which previously had really been synonymous with high quality miniatures (and full disclosure, I still think the Sedition Wars ones are definitely above average). I mean, with Raging Heroes, I guess you at least have the expectation from previous endeavors that they're going to be really late? If that's the case, I don't know why one would back them in the first place unless you're okay with that tardiness.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
, I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.

Sarcasm?

No, quite genuine. I've actually NEVER seen a game company give two farts about the feedback they got before. (Certainly never any feedback I've been a part of.) Any feedback I've ever participated in has gotten either a complete cold shoulder (like from Games Workshop) or a 'thanks for buying our merchandise, now piss off' form letter (like White Wolf). The fact that RH has made any alterations, ever, at all, puts them ahead of the pack in my own personal experience. Obviously everyone else has had some different experiences.

There's really quite a lot of companies here on Dakka around the same size as RH who are very receptive to feedback. Here's a few that immediately spring to mind in terms of getting design feedback from us - as distinct from being active and friendly but just releasing stuff without actively asking for ideas and feedback (Kromlech, Maxmini):
Victoria Miniatures
Anvil Industries
Paulson Games
Dreamforge Games
Red Box Games
- edit - Mad Robot. (couldn't recall the name last night).

I know Kev from Hasslefree is also actively listening to feedback online (he's responded positively to suggestions I made via LifeInvader), and also does so on the Forum of Doom, along with others like Heresy.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

Truth be told, I don't think anyone expected there to be as many problems with Sedition Wars as there were. I mean, for me, the biggest drawing point WAS the McVey name, which previously had really been synonymous with high quality miniatures (and full disclosure, I still think the Sedition Wars ones are definitely above average). I mean, with Raging Heroes, I guess you at least have the expectation from previous endeavors that they're going to be really late? If that's the case, I don't know why one would back them in the first place unless you're okay with that tardiness.

Absolutely on (most) of those points. That's why I said SW was one of hindsight. With RH, I know they're going to be severely late (as I did with Avatars of War), but I also expect that the finished product will be pretty bloody good.

 Azazelx wrote:

Absolutely on (most) of those points. That's why I said SW was one of hindsight. With RH, I know they're going to be severely late (as I did with Avatars of War), but I also expect that the finished product will be pretty bloody good.

Yep, late doesn't bother me at all in this instance, because the minis wouldn't be available at retail any sooner than the KS backers would be getting theirs anyway. Box games and other "bundled" Kickstarters run the risk of the producer falling behind on individual KS backer shipments, but getting retailer shipments out and available to the general public before the backers get theirs. This doesn't really bother me much, usually because I'm getting the better deal in the end, but it does come up quite a bit in KS threads (and KS backers are quite vocal on these points) where backers are waiting on product that the general public has access to.

I think one of the issues we're seeing for this particular KS is that the project was funded pretty much entirely via concept art, with only a few renders and WIP shots to whet backers' appetites for what the finished product will look like. Couple this with a lack of WIP or finished miniature shots for almost 2 months after the project ended, and it's completely justifiable for backers to want some communication from RH, even if it's just a weekly update saying "Here's a list of the things we did this week." At least that way we'd know there was progress being made somewhere instead of being left practically in the dark.

Also, we don't need a list of things you did outside of working on the miniatures: KS isn't the place for that. Post it on a blog somewhere, or in the general comments. KS updates should really convey as much information about the production of the project as possible to keep backers informed and satisfied that their money is being spent accordingly. Deviate too far from this, and backers become restless, which leads to grumpy backers, and eventually ill-will.

Finally, if they put up WIP pictures, they need to be ready for comments and criticism to be given. Whether they do anything with it is up to them. Expect a barrage of every type of criticism imaginable, have a plan for how to approach each type, and be mindful of how much wiggle room you want to have with your designs based on what your customers are saying. If you aren't going to change anything based on feedback, tell people that, so they know where to set their expectations.

At this point, I'm expecting the "Big Update" to come second week of October. These are my expectations now: add 1-2 weeks on to anything said by RH in the comments, based on their posting and updating history for this Kickstarter. They're far off the mark for timeliness, but I'm still hoping and expecting the work they do to be above par. I just have to wait longer for it to come to light.

/rantover

~iPaint

Wasn't the "big update" supposed to come around a month ago?

I think the big update was some sort of metaphor. There is a big update inside each of us if only we are willing to see it.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think the big update was some sort of metaphor. There is a big update inside each of us if only we are willing to see it.

If nothing else, this thread gives me many opportunities to laugh a lot, and perhaps get strange looks from co-workers.

To me, that makes it all worth it!

But some of us didn't even pay for that privilidge Alph.

This thread is pure enjoyment from that perspective. Plus I figured one kickstarter with product that won't show up for a decade my limit (AoW) and even then it was only the standard bearer.