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Che-Vito wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Relapse wrote:To such people, usually a good bowel movement is the highlight of their day.

Pssssh, that's the best part of any sane person's day...

Agreed. Really cheers me up.

Oh DakkaDakka, the joy that you bring to my daily life is Priceless.

For everything else, there is Mastercard

Polonius wrote:A teaching game isn't really a game though. It's expected by both sides that the teacher will remind the new player of rules, explain why they can't make certain decisions, help with deployment and basic tactics (At least while still learning the rules), and often compile the lists ahead of time. At that point, playing for the win is kind of pointless, IMO.

Assuming a person isn't a seasoned wargamer, it takes most people 1 or 2 games just to master the flow of the turns and the basic rules, and another game or two after that to really catch on to tactics. It's really not until a player has a sound understanding of the game mechanics and how the units in both armies work that there is any game to win at all. Rather than "throwing" games, I think it's generally more useful to make sure to set up as many situations in game as possible to demonstrate mechanics: morale tests, sweeping advances, transports, reserves, etc.

After a few games, if they want to play, they can play, but even then there is a huge range of behaviors between "Welcome to thunderdome" and throwing the game that can be triggered based on the context of the game. What list I bring, what army I play, how strict I am on LOS and take backs, reminders of rules, reminders of mission requirements, etc. all can be used to help handicap a weaker player while still forcing them to actually rise to the occasion to win.

And here we finally have a realistic approach to teaching a child how to play a game. Application of force measured by wisdom.

Bartholomew001 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

grizgrin wrote:So you are saying that anything but steamrolling is "going easy"? Also, you are saying that passive teaching is the only way to teach?

Riiiiiight.

I'm saying that is what works in my Experience. I have lost track of the number of kids I have taught. The Vast Majority of them have rallied up and committed themselves to beating me. I gave them a goal and made them work for it, something which a vast majority of kids today no longer get. Yes, I have had the occasional "Whaa whaa emoragequit" but I don't bother myself about them. Honestly, if a Kid cries at losing a game, what kind of person do you think they will grow up to be?

I learnt the rules by myself, no-one teached me so i don't know if steamrolling is the best, but when i face people who are learning the rules i put my back into it and try to win (emphasized because i don't win 40k regularly, AT-43 is a different matter, anyway), they need to learn how to fight

Example: Did hilter teach the rules of his Blitzkrieg to the French and British while committing it, of course not, its war (insert WAAAAGH here)!

Although i for one don't carry about winning.

I would take issue with the historical example. I am quite sur ethat, while Hitler was not in an active teaching mode as far as his intent, his military opponents were learning the entire time he was fighting.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

grizgrin wrote:Possibly a better one if they are shown a better example and that they are worth a little investment, instead of seeing an "older" person quit on them because they are not worth the effort? Way to go, role model.

Personally, I don't see it as it somehow being my obligation to teach nooblets the game, or even setting any kind of example. I couldn't care less if they don't learn the rules, doubly so if they're not playing against me. As far as I'm concerned, the longevity of the hobby is someone else's problem, and I refuse to share in that burden.

A personal choice. Some take it upon themselves to teach new people to shepherd along future players and do a part to help keep them engaged in the game and having fun. Some choose not. At least you put a face on it, not a front.

Per mod "request, I'll refrain form continuing my conversation with Gwar (although as far as anyone gettin upset, I have yet to see any exclamation points or 1's in polace of punctuation so I don't know where that came from) in this thread, however I answer PM's as regularly as life allows. Feel free.

Not sure if this qualifies as an "awkward gaming moment", but here goes.

Was playing at a store for a few months and started to get to know people who went there. Well there was this one guy (lets just call him Fester) who I gotten to know and he always beat me. I noticed one day he never drove himself to the store. So I pretty much began giving Fester a ride to the store so he could game some. Well after about 2 weeks of doing this a guy (Turner) came in the store and asked a cop (Hooch) that gamed there to step outside to talk to him. Since the owner (Gweedo) was half Italian couldnt help resist telling him that he didnt seem to have this fellow on the payroll. Of course the friendly retort was to inform me that maybe I should get in touch with my family and that they should know that the cops are on to them about their moonshine operation. After a few jokes back and forth Turner sticks his head into the store and ask Fester (who btw has placed himself away from us at the front toward the back setting up terrain) to come outside. Gweedo and I are like WTF. This random encounter is turning out quite eventful. Well Hooch comes back into the store and explains to us that Fester is a registered sex offender and should not have been coming to the store due to it being a place that kids do go. Of course I - the dipstick that gave the fellow a ride there - am apologizing about this fact and explaining I didnt know. Hooch tells me dont worry that wasnt my fault and the way they really snagged him was that he didnt register his new address that he had just moved to.

11/11/18.10:59AM wrote:Not sure if this qualifies as an "awkward gaming moment", but here goes.

Was playing at a store for a few months and started to get to know people who went there. Well there was this one guy (lets just call him Fester) who I gotten to know and he always beat me. I noticed one day he never drove himself to the store. So I pretty much began giving Fester a ride to the store so he could game some. Well after about 2 weeks of doing this a guy (Turner) came in the store and asked a cop (Hooch) that gamed there to step outside to talk to him. Since the owner (Gweedo) was half Italian couldnt help resist telling him that he didnt seem to have this fellow on the payroll. Of course the friendly retort was to inform me that maybe I should get in touch with my family and that they should know that the cops are on to them about their moonshine operation. After a few jokes back and forth Turner sticks his head into the store and ask Fester (who btw has placed himself away from us at the front toward the back setting up terrain) to come outside. Gweedo and I are like WTF. This random encounter is turning out quite eventful. Well Hooch comes back into the store and explains to us that Fester is a registered sex offender and should not have been coming to the store due to it being a place that kids do go. Of course I - the dipstick that gave the fellow a ride there - am apologizing about this fact and explaining I didnt know. Hooch tells me dont worry that wasnt my fault and the way they really snagged him was that he didnt register his new address that he had just moved to.

That is a very awkward moment there. Also, awesome name.

Polonius wrote:...there is a huge range of behaviors between "Welcome to thunderdome" and throwing the game...

Polonius?
...I love you...

That polite enough, Frazz? LOL


Eric

A bit creepy MM, but I would guess not impolite.

How long have you been stalking Polonius?

MagickalMemories wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
That was a nice thing to do but letting him get his way by crying is doing him no favours at all. If his parents understood that then maybe he'd sort himself out.

My eldest is starting to get interested in gaming (she's going through a wants to be like daddy phase) and I'd be pretty annoyed if I saw someone totally throwing a game against her. Doubly so if they did it because she had a tantrum.

[praise]

[/praise]

Amen, Brother.
My youngest is 11 and showing an interest.
She may be the apple of my eye, but there's no way I'll EVER throw a game. Learning how to lose is as important as learning how to win, IMO.

I never threw a game against her brother & sister (20 & 23, respectively) on anything, and I'm not about to start now.

Teaches them how to be a good sport and that you can't always get everything in life.

Eric

As an experienced parent, I fully expect you to agree that there's a whole world of difference between throwing a game and teaching a kid to play well though! Random irritating kids in stores are one thing, they're their parents' problem really, and getting trounced by older people with less patience is part of growing up. But your own kids are something else. My dad "taught" me to play chess. Which consisted of explaining the rules a couple of times and then completely hammering me into the ground 3 times in a row. Now my dad's not an a$$ (he's now 72 btw), and we love each other. He's just a lousy teacher. He never explained how I could have improved my game, and I was too young to work it out on my own. The upshot was that I never, ever, played chess again after that introduction.

Which is why, now, with kids of my own, of which the youngest two (6 and 8) are mad keen LotR collectors, I have tried really hard to have fun games with them. Some they win, some they lose, but they always keep coming back for more. I don't hammer them into the ground. Where they make mistakes I try and explain how they could have avoided them. Sometimes they make bad choices nevertheless, and then they see the consequences of their choices and learn from them. I always cut them plenty of slack and let them change their mind, and help them out with reminding them about rules that might help them and so on. Occasionally I completely hobble myself (perhaps take a couple of hundred points less, or half the might points of my heroes or something - although I never tell them I am doing that), in order to make sure they win this time after an apparently "fair" game. Sometimes I don't need to. As time goes on they are getting better and better, and are still thoroughly absorbed in the hobby - they'd play every night if they could. Teaching them to be good sports and how to lose graciously and win magnanimously are important I think, wouldn't you agree?

Can someone adopt me and teach me / buy me ice-cream etc? I know i'm almost 27 but I promise to kiss your cheek and i wub you daddie etc and play loads of games.

I even allow the lucky person to paint next to me and put his arm round me as a hug of bonding.

If required I am willing to unlearn my potty training.

I think that a bowel movement is far better than winning against anyone (be they young or old) who does not have a firm grasp on the game. In fact bowel movements are natural and healthy, where as over indulging in a brutal win of a new comer is not conducive to mental health.

I had a huge argument with my brother the other day about whether or not my cyborks got both of their armour and Invulnerable saves (this rarely comes up, since Orks never get saves). I kept telling him to show me in the book where it said I couldn't. He didn't find it, I looked and didn't find it, we called someone who looked and couldn't find it. All of this took half an hour. The rule was actually 3 pages or so after the armour/invuln/cover save rules.

He then completed trouncing me. 500 point Cybork armies are hard to build.

When I first starting gaming there was a very tall guy who was a regular at the shop I played in. He tended to wear very tight form fitting running shorts, and he always clearly went commando. With the gaming tables only coming up to upper thigh level, you generally tried to stay out of his deployment zone and focus on your own army.

It was a mentally traumatizing experience anytime you drew to play him in leagues or tournaments. I clearly still have scars, and I think this is why I cry myself to sleep each night.

I still refuse to shake the hand of the guy who appeared to man handle his "miniature" during a game of 40k.

I just remembered a fun story from my time as a redshirt at the Village GW in NYC. I'm brand new on the job and I'm an avid 40k player, so my boss decides to task me with teaching a group of younger (read: 8-10 year olds) how to play. Looking back on it I think my boss may not have been very fond of me. Continuing on, as I'm keeping this game going, dealing with all the little snots (who's parents miraculously disappeared) and trying to maintain my sanity in that hot and crowded little store, one of the kids looked up at me and asked "Do you have a bathroom?"

Of course we had a bathroom but it wasn't public, and the kid's parent wasn't anywhere to be found, so I went to ask my boss if he could use our bathroom in the back. I guess because it was such an odd situation he okayed it, so I go back to the kid and tell him to follow me to the bathroom. He looks up at me and tell me, "I don't have to use the bathroom anymore."

And who got to clean up the new lake on the floor? You guessed it, the new redshirt. I hate my life sometimes.

IAmTheWalrus wrote:I just remembered a fun story from my time as a redshirt at the Village GW in NYC. I'm brand new on the job and I'm an avid 40k player, so my boss decides to task me with teaching a group of younger (read: 8-10 year olds) how to play. Looking back on it I think my boss may not have been very fond of me. Continuing on, as I'm keeping this game going, dealing with all the little snots (who's parents miraculously disappeared) and trying to maintain my sanity in that hot and crowded little store, one of the kids looked up at me and asked "Do you have a bathroom?"

Of course we had a bathroom but it wasn't public, and the kid's parent wasn't anywhere to be found, so I went to ask my boss if he could use our bathroom in the back. I guess because it was such an odd situation he okayed it, so I go back to the kid and tell him to follow me to the bathroom. He looks up at me and tell me, "I don't have to use the bathroom anymore."

And who got to clean up the new lake on the floor? You guessed it, the new redshirt. I hate me life sometimes.

I actually was at the store not too long ago, liked the place, but won't be going back to play simply because of the fee. Sure, it may make good business sense, but I
ll stay at home and play with "counts as" scenery before I pay to play.

Osbad wrote:As an experienced parent, I fully expect you to agree that there's a whole world of difference between throwing a game and teaching a kid to play well though! Random irritating kids in stores are one thing, they're their parents' problem really, and getting trounced by older people with less patience is part of growing up. But your own kids are something else. My dad "taught" me to play chess. Which consisted of explaining the rules a couple of times and then completely hammering me into the ground 3 times in a row. Now my dad's not an a$$ (he's now 72 btw), and we love each other. He's just a lousy teacher. He never explained how I could have improved my game, and I was too young to work it out on my own. The upshot was that I never, ever, played chess again after that introduction.

Which is why, now, with kids of my own, of which the youngest two (6 and 8) are mad keen LotR collectors, I have tried really hard to have fun games with them. Some they win, some they lose, but they always keep coming back for more. I don't hammer them into the ground. Where they make mistakes I try and explain how they could have avoided them. Sometimes they make bad choices nevertheless, and then they see the consequences of their choices and learn from them. I always cut them plenty of slack and let them change their mind, and help them out with reminding them about rules that might help them and so on. Occasionally I completely hobble myself (perhaps take a couple of hundred points less, or half the might points of my heroes or something - although I never tell them I am doing that), in order to make sure they win this time after an apparently "fair" game. Sometimes I don't need to. As time goes on they are getting better and better, and are still thoroughly absorbed in the hobby - they'd play every night if they could. Teaching them to be good sports and how to lose graciously and win magnanimously are important I think, wouldn't you agree?

Oh, yes.
I agree whole-heartedly.

I hope I didn't give the indication that I was of the "trounce them soundly" faction.
My style's more like:

Run through some NON game scenarios (set up 2 units of SM's and practice shooting until it's understood, then assault until it's understood, etc) then build 2 IDENTICAL armies.
On their turn, explain what their options are and the possible outcomes of each, then let them decide which is best. If I went first, I explain what I'm doing as I do it, then give them one or 2 possible reasons I might have been doing that. On their turn, the options I give them will be appropriate, considering what MY moves were and what their goals are.

I always let them choose their own actions. At the end of the game, I explain why one action was better than another, et.

MY point was that *I* won't make stupid decisions that I wouldn't NORMALLY make (try not to leave models out in the open, unless they're a sacrificial diversion, etc). I think the only thing we disagree on (and it's a minor thing, really) is "hobbling" yourself. Win or lose, I want my kids to win or lose as even a game as possible.

Eric

grizgrin wrote:A bit creepy MM, but I would guess not impolite.

How long have you been stalking Polonius?

And should I be calling the police?

I don't know, sometimes I listen to the wisdom of the great Topper Harly from Hot shots:

"My father used to say that not playing to win is like sleeping with your sister. Sure she's a great piece of tail, with a blouse full of goodies, but... it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing. Kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo... eat apple sauce through a straw... pork farm animals. "

Not really appropriate, but I've always loved that quote.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Osbad wrote:As an experienced parent, I fully expect you to agree that there's a whole world of difference between throwing a game and teaching a kid to play well though! Random irritating kids in stores are one thing, they're their parents' problem really, and getting trounced by older people with less patience is part of growing up. But your own kids are something else. My dad "taught" me to play chess. Which consisted of explaining the rules a couple of times and then completely hammering me into the ground 3 times in a row. Now my dad's not an a$$ (he's now 72 btw), and we love each other. He's just a lousy teacher. He never explained how I could have improved my game, and I was too young to work it out on my own. The upshot was that I never, ever, played chess again after that introduction.

Which is why, now, with kids of my own, of which the youngest two (6 and 8) are mad keen LotR collectors, I have tried really hard to have fun games with them. Some they win, some they lose, but they always keep coming back for more. I don't hammer them into the ground. Where they make mistakes I try and explain how they could have avoided them. Sometimes they make bad choices nevertheless, and then they see the consequences of their choices and learn from them. I always cut them plenty of slack and let them change their mind, and help them out with reminding them about rules that might help them and so on. Occasionally I completely hobble myself (perhaps take a couple of hundred points less, or half the might points of my heroes or something - although I never tell them I am doing that), in order to make sure they win this time after an apparently "fair" game. Sometimes I don't need to. As time goes on they are getting better and better, and are still thoroughly absorbed in the hobby - they'd play every night if they could. Teaching them to be good sports and how to lose graciously and win magnanimously are important I think, wouldn't you agree?

Oh, yes.
I agree whole-heartedly.

I hope I didn't give the indication that I was of the "trounce them soundly" faction.
My style's more like:

Run through some NON game scenarios (set up 2 units of SM's and practice shooting until it's understood, then assault until it's understood, etc) then build 2 IDENTICAL armies.
On their turn, explain what their options are and the possible outcomes of each, then let them decide which is best. If I went first, I explain what I'm doing as I do it, then give them one or 2 possible reasons I might have been doing that. On their turn, the options I give them will be appropriate, considering what MY moves were and what their goals are.

I always let them choose their own actions. At the end of the game, I explain why one action was better than another, et.

MY point was that *I* won't make stupid decisions that I wouldn't NORMALLY make (try not to leave models out in the open, unless they're a sacrificial diversion, etc). I think the only thing we disagree on (and it's a minor thing, really) is "hobbling" yourself. Win or lose, I want my kids to win or lose as even a game as possible.

Eric

I understand. I thought we were probably coming from the same space, just wanted to check.

WRT the "hobbling" thing. I think, if I'm honest, I do it as often to give myself a challenge. With kids as young as my 2 are, then you have to really give them some sort of a hand, as they simply can't compute all the variables yet. So hobbling myself is a way of making sure that I still have to think about it in order to win, and means I don't feel too bad about capitalising on some of the mistakes the wee lads make.

We're wandering a bit off-topic. There's some really good conversation about how to teach people to play, so someone should start a seperate thread on that.

Maybe even write an article.

Wildeyedjester wrote:When I first starting gaming there was a very tall guy who was a regular at the shop I played in. He tended to wear very tight form fitting running shorts, and he always clearly went commando. With the gaming tables only coming up to upper thigh level, you generally tried to stay out of his deployment zone and focus on your own army.

It was a mentally traumatizing experience anytime you drew to play him in leagues or tournaments. I clearly still have scars, and I think this is why I cry myself to sleep each night.

Yes, the sight of something akin to a baby bird has no place whatsoever in a games store!

I would have said something, loudly, in front of people.

Polonius wrote:

grizgrin wrote:A bit creepy MM, but I would guess not impolite.

How long have you been stalking Polonius?

And should I be calling the police?

I don't know, sometimes I listen to the wisdom of the great Topper Harly from Hot shots:

"My father used to say that not playing to win is like sleeping with your sister. Sure she's a great piece of tail, with a blouse full of goodies, but... it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing. Kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo... eat apple sauce through a straw... pork farm animals. "

Not really appropriate, but I've always loved that quote.

First off, it's not stalking if it's a coincidence that I end up everywhere he does... and I really DID think my car keys got in his shower stall. THAT is the ONLY reason I was there.

Second, Polonius....
NO.
DEFINITELY DO NOT CALL THE POLICE.

Third... thanks for yet another awkward moment with that quote. LOL

Eric

The first gaming/comic store I started going to when I was 10 always kinda smelled "funny" (like drugs, as I would later learn). They had a microwave set up, and from time to time you'd see dirty clothes back by the office door. The walls of the bathroom were covered in posters of half-naked female superhero-type people, and there were comic boxes labeled "Do not look in this box if you are not 18" in sharpie. Regardless, I went to this place to play Pokemon when it first appeared. I loved playing in the tournaments though some of the older guys were really mean, and I would see the TO taking money from them and them telling him who they wanted to play. Not to mention he would sometimes compete in the tournaments he was judging, which was always a no-no. After I stopped going there the shop closed down, and he and the owners got arrested for having kiddy porn. The thought of the place always creeps me out now. I never understood why my dad would insist on staying with me at the tournaments then.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:The first gaming/comic store I started going to when I was 10 always kinda smelled "funny" (like drugs, as I would later learn). They had a microwave set up, and from time to time you'd see dirty clothes back by the office door. The walls of the bathroom were covered in posters of half-naked female superhero-type people, and there were comic boxes labeled "Do not look in this box if you are not 18" in sharpie. Regardless, I went to this place to play Pokemon when it first appeared. I loved playing in the tournaments though some of the older guys were really mean, and I would see the TO taking money from them and them telling him who they wanted to play. Not to mention he would sometimes compete in the tournaments he was judging, which was always a no-no. After I stopped going there the shop closed down, and he and the owners got arrested for having kiddy porn. The thought of the place always creeps me out now. I never understood why my dad would insist on staying with me at the tournaments then.

Dear Lord?!? that's just.......strange.....

why do people hate kids. sure a tonne of kids i no (im 12 btw) cheat, (one guys said sternguad wore artificer) but not all of them do. grrrr awkward gaming moment number 112. played a game against this 17 year old (dont know real age just 3-6 ears older than me) and he wasn't so annoying. But his friend was. this guy sat at the side all the way through chuckling everytime i made a stupid move. if he wasn't so big and i wasn't so small i would have told him to stup his fething trap. but i didnt.

deadly chicken wrote:why do people hate kids?

Because the majority of the posters here are bitter old men, warped and shrunken by a lifetime's exposure to lead dust and glue fumes, who love nothing better than to go off on rants, usually along the lines of, 'Armor saves? What's this crap? Back in my day, when your model took wounds, you got a kick in the junk! And if you fell over, your model died! None of this namby-pamby FNP reroll stuff."

Also, in terms of being taught a game, this is why I don't play Hero-Clix. A guy offered to teach me how to play, and said I could select my force from his models. It was 100 points, and I thought wouldn't it be nifty to do Batman's Rogue gallery, and took the Joker, Riddler, Catwoman, Penguin, and two others, iirc. He built his lost next, and took Batman alright, and Superman, Wonderwoman, and the Flash. Batman was the only character on that roster who couldn't one-shot all of mine. Superman was invulnerable, and since all my characters were human level, none of them could hurt him. Flash not only had a much higher movement rate than any of my guys, but I think his special ability let him move-attack-move, so he could run up, one shot my character, and then get back out of range of retaliation. The only success I had in the entire game was when Joker managed to get a Mind Control on Wonderwoman, who I then had one-shot Batman, and after that the gloves REALLY came off and I got wiped out. So I learned all right, but damn if I have any inclination to ever play again.

Bookwrack wrote:

deadly chicken wrote:why do people hate kids?

Because the majority of the posters here are bitter old men, warped and shrunken by a lifetime's exposure to lead dust and glue fumes, who love nothing better than to go off on rants, usually along the lines of, 'Armor saves? What's this crap? Back in my day, when your model took wounds, you got a kick in the junk! And if you fell over, your model died! None of this namby-pamby FNP reroll stuff."

QFT!

Bookwrack wrote:

deadly chicken wrote:why do people hate kids?

Because the majority of the posters here are bitter old men, warped and shrunken by a lifetime's exposure to lead dust and glue fumes

Look at Gwar's avatar for an example of what this looks like

deadly chicken wrote:why do people hate kids.

Why? Myriad negative experiences over the years. It's a learned response, not automatic.

Probably something to do with the fact that kids tend to be less intelligent, immature, more prone to emotional outbursts at games, and generally less fun to play with then someone of the age of about 17+.

Ketara wrote:Probably something to do with the fact that kids tend to be less intelligent, immature, more prone to emotional outbursts at games, and generally less fun to play with then someone of the age of about 17+.

Aptly put. And really, what else can you expect? They're kids. Works in progress. Unfinished merchandise. Rough drafts.

Polonius wrote:

grizgrin wrote:A bit creepy MM, but I would guess not impolite.

How long have you been stalking Polonius?

And should I be calling the police?

I don't know, sometimes I listen to the wisdom of the great Topper Harly from Hot shots:

"My father used to say that not playing to win is like sleeping with your sister. Sure she's a great piece of tail, with a blouse full of goodies, but... it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing. Kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo... eat apple sauce through a straw... pork farm animals. "

Not really appropriate, but I've always loved that quote.

And Polonius sinks down to my level with that post.