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I do think seeing Thor in that state was a little cringe worthy. Made complete sense narratively of course but yeah. A little cringe worthy, especially since they dropped the super depressed Norse god angle rather abruptly imo.
Thor's role in this film is to be a 1500 year old god who sulks like a 20-something drop-out, acts as comic relief, and ultimately ends up stealing a counterpart's artifact (one himself mourned over) to give Chris Evans a better send-off.
I didn't find any of that particularly interesting to watch, there were literally a dozen MCU characters that I would have rather seen on the screen more often instead.
Wow. I honestly could not disagree more with this. Thor's descent into alcoholism and seclusion may actually have been my favorite thing about the movie. I loved how badly he wanted to be the one to snap everyone back to assuage his guilt for not stopping Thanos the first time around, and how terrified he was to believe Hulk could offer him a chance to set everything right. The scene with his mom was fantastic, heart-felt stuff. Great message too, about failing who you're supposed to be and succeeding as who you really are. That really gut punched me.
I say a man who is suffering from crippling depression, who hates himself for his failures and inability to correct them. A man who has given up on life and his people, and now just drinks and eats his pain whilst surrounding himself with people who won't question him (Korg).
OK? That isn't inspiring or interesting either. He's TFG on the other end of Xbox headset.
It's in direct contrast to Stark, who lashes out in the moment, finds a way to move on, then risks that new life to try to makes things better.
Thor gets lured onwards with the promise of more beer, then his mother's teat, and still at the end doesn't really accomplish anything (another body in the giant fight, as with all the other extras), just continues to abandon his responsibilities to go looking for another party with someone else who won't question him.
Thor had a pretty big arc of character growth through six films. In this one, he just plummeted off a cliff at the end of the opening act, and didn't come back. At this point I'd be happy to see Thor Four be Beta Rey Bill, Jane Thor, or some random hiker with a walking stick making himself worthy. Hell, I'd even take randomly shoving the X-men into Thor Four for the 'Storm, Goddess of Thunder' issue.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2019/05/05 23:59:30
Subject: Re:Avengers: Endgame -- spoilers so beware
Also that he's 1500 years old. How do you even write a character like that to begin with and why would someone so old be the least mature of the power trio in Endgame?
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
Avatar was still making $1 mil+ per day in March 2010 and was released in December 2009. Endgame is already the biggest movie event ever and it's not even close.
Avatar was released on xmas break and took about a month or 2 to break 2bil. While mostly selling 17.00 3d imax tickets.
End game did that in april with no break in 12 days. With no gimmicks to raise ticket prices and no breaks to boost sales. 600 mil more before it leaves the box office is very feasible.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/05/06 00:08:10
Subject: Re:Avengers: Endgame -- spoilers so beware
trexmeyer wrote: Also that he's 1500 years old. How do you even write a character like that to begin with and why would someone so old be the least mature of the power trio in Endgame?
To be fair, age doesn't really determine one's maturity, and for someone like Thor who's been the Crown Prince since birth and got to basically do whatever he wanted until the events of the first Thor movie, it's possible he lacked any real hardships for growth until the events shown in the movies.
Voss wrote: Thor had a pretty big arc of character growth through six films. In this one, he just plummeted off a cliff at the end of the opening act, and didn't come back.
Thor at the start of endgame... or rather after the 5 year jump... is an extension of his growth.
He receded. And that's the point. He utter despair over his actions in Wakanda followed by his complete inability to change them when he finally did catch up with Thanos a couple of weeks later is what caused him to regress.
And he did come back. By the end of the film he has a completely different outlook and is ready to try something different, leaving the things he knows he cannot do behind (like lead his people), and instead going on a new journey to discover who he wants to be.
Voss wrote: Thor had a pretty big arc of character growth through six films. In this one, he just plummeted off a cliff at the end of the opening act, and didn't come back.
Thor at the start of endgame... or rather after the 5 year jump... is an extension of his growth.
He receded. And that's the point. He utter despair over his actions in Wakanda followed by his complete inability to change them when he finally did catch up with Thanos a couple of weeks later is what caused him to regress.
And he did come back. By the end of the film he has a completely different outlook and is ready to try something different, leaving the things he knows he cannot do behind (like lead his people), and instead going on a new journey to discover who he wants to be.
I guess I kind of feel like he already did that at the start of Infinity War (being depressed) and in his own trilogy (knowing he the throne wasn't his path), and while logical that the first thing it would get worse after the events of that movie, the humor of it ended up not outweighing the cringe. But maybe that's the point. Not every story is supposed to make you feel inspired at all points, but I still think they overplayed it a pit. The bit at the end totally works, I'm ready to see Thor + Guardians and all the fun that comes with it, but I feel like that whole bit was a rehash of development he'd already had.
It's rather clear that at the end of Endgame, we will not see Captain America or Stark again on the big screen until a reboot (which could be years from now). We aren't going to see Black Widow and I doubt we will see Clint either. Are we going to see Thor again though? How about Hulk? Are these two from the original cast of Avenger continue on?
I'm pretty sure RDJ has been looking to leave the role of Stark for awhile, and Chris Evans too for Steve Rogers. Scarlet JoIDK. It's a comic movie, and comics are notorious for never keeping anyone dead so it's not like they can't magic hand her back to life somehow.
Thor seems like he's clearly set up to be in the next Guardians movie at the end of the film. Hulk idk. He's only ever been in Avengers films + a Thor film. Is the actor wanting to leave the character?
But I wouldn't call it a great movie since so much was about ticking boxes and then filming what amounted to cameos.
While the rationale for Captain Marvel to be 'out there' rather than on Earth makes logical sense in universe, in movie it made her feel more like a plot device. Especially since the initial rescue isn't ever explained (See Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy on space being 'really big'), after the hype that fell a little flat.
I'm assuming that any member of the Kree military would have some (or even a lot of) basic knowledge of where Thanos is from, and where Titan is. So she found them between Titan and Earth, which while still being a needle in a haystack, is a bit more believable. Space magic, as well.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
epronovost wrote: It's rather clear that at the end of Endgame, we will not see Captain America or Stark again on the big screen until a reboot (which could be years from now). We aren't going to see Black Widow and I doubt we will see Clint either. Are we going to see Thor again though? How about Hulk? Are these two from the original cast of Avenger continue on?
There is a black widow movie scheduled for phase 4. Clint will at least be in disney+ series. Thor will be in guardians 3.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
epronovost wrote: It's rather clear that at the end of Endgame, we will not see Captain America or Stark again on the big screen until a reboot (which could be years from now). We aren't going to see Black Widow and I doubt we will see Clint either. Are we going to see Thor again though? How about Hulk? Are these two from the original cast of Avenger continue on?
There is a black widow movie scheduled for phase 4. Clint will at least be in disney+ series. Thor will be in guardians 3.
Didn't they constantly say scarlett is gone for good? Of course this could be like DBZ where you can't wish them back with the dragon balls more than once until you find out there are some namek super dragon balls that override that rule. Of course if death is never permanent wouldn't that just take away the effect of a good guy dying completely. It kinda becomes like 'Looks like we're gonna need another Timmy!' level of comedy from the old Dinosaurs tv show.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/06 01:08:45
Maybe there will be a new character using the Black Widow mantle? I'm not super familiar with the character's comic history. Has anyone else ever used the name?
Or maybe it'll be a prequel and we'll finally find out what happened in Budapest?
The Widow movie is likely a prequel, and assuming she isn't the villain, Yelena Belova could be the 'new' Widow that we get introduced to in the film.
LordofHats wrote: I guess I kind of feel like he already did that at the start of Infinity War (being depressed)
That was't him depressed. That was him determined to get revenge for all that Thanos had done and to stop him from doing more, and then failing. Endgame was the fallout of the failure.
LordofHats wrote: and in his own trilogy (knowing he the throne wasn't his path),
But he accepted the throne in Ragnarok.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/06 01:18:34
He seemed kind of depressed to me (at the start of the film anyway). And I see how he'd get more depressed. It makes total sense. It's just that it's depressing, and in a way that's really cringe.
ut he accepted the throne in Ragnarok.
Maybe I need to rewatch Ragnarok then (cause I don't remember that). Fortunately it's still on Netflix XD
Avatar was still making $1 mil+ per day in March 2010 and was released in December 2009. Endgame is already the biggest movie event ever and it's not even close.
Avatar was released on xmas break and took about a month or 2 to break 2bil. While mostly selling 17.00 3d imax tickets.
End game did that in april with no break in 12 days. With no gimmicks to raise ticket prices and no breaks to boost sales. 600 mil more before it leaves the box office is very feasible.
may have to go see it again if that will help shove Avatar down the memory hole.
He seemed kind of depressed to me (at the start of the film anyway). And I see how he'd get more depressed. It makes total sense. It's just that it's depressing, and in a way that's really cringe.
ut he accepted the throne in Ragnarok.
Maybe I need to rewatch Ragnarok then (cause I don't remember that). Fortunately it's still on Netflix XD
It's just before his final fight with Hela.
Yeah my one irk with Infinity War/Endgame is how it undid what few bits of a good ending there were in Ragnorok. So not only is Asgard down to a few 100 people, but half of them died too?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/06 01:25:32
Voss wrote: Thor had a pretty big arc of character growth through six films. In this one, he just plummeted off a cliff at the end of the opening act, and didn't come back.
Thor at the start of endgame... or rather after the 5 year jump... is an extension of his growth.
He receded.
No, he regressed. He's again the irresponsible oaf he was at the beginning of Thor 1. But now with pop culture memes.
Only this time no one around is willing (or able) to slap him out of it.
By the end of the film he has a completely different outlook and is ready to try something different, leaving the things he knows he cannot do behind (like lead his people), and instead going on a new journey to discover who he wants to be.
That's a really generous reading of text that isn't there. He abandoned his retrieval mission. He's never tried to lead his people. He rescued them (briefly), and when they magically turned up again in, I guess, a different ship that they didn't have, and he went on a five year bender. He got to re-fight Thanos and be part of the win, but there isn't anything to suggest he really learned anything- he just took his mother's advice as permission that he could just walk away from all his responsibilities and go play with the 'rabbit.' His outlook doesn't seem any different than his Xbox/beer binge with Korg, it simply the road-trip version.
For the other major characters that got screen time in this film, we got to see what they were sacrificing or coming to terms with -in this film-. For Thor, uniquely of the main cast, we got to see jokey Chris Hemsworth from Ghostbusters and little of Thor.
It would be one thing if they had handled it differently (as they did with Natasha, Stark and Steve). But his 'depression' (and therefor the sum total of his arc in *this film*) is treated as a bit piece with jokes. As LordofHats puts it, it's cringey. The film puts his 'depression' as the same level of Ant-man's misunderstanding of time travel because of bad films, and he's assigned the same kind of 'zings' to break up the tension with humor. And, I'll just say again, a depressed god of thunder doesn't make for good entertainment anyway, even when they don't make depression a comic relief element.
So, yeah, I'd rather have not had him in the film at all, and with the Snap that's easily done, as character appearances were up to the writers/producers. There was enough angst in the film that adding Thor's didn't help the tone, and the comic way they handled his 'depression' hurt the tone a great deal. (It seems odd that everyone else's problems was handled seriously). Since the plot required Ant-man, I would have rather had a zany heist with Rocket and Scott in past-Asgard as a legitimate break from all the emotion, and almost anyone taking Scott's place in past New York. Stark's plan of 'give his other self a heart attack' was really odd, when he knew that an angry Hulk would burst into a tense argument and cause a big distraction anyway.
But I wouldn't call it a great movie since so much was about ticking boxes and then filming what amounted to cameos.
While the rationale for Captain Marvel to be 'out there' rather than on Earth makes logical sense in universe, in movie it made her feel more like a plot device. Especially since the initial rescue isn't ever explained (See Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy on space being 'really big'), after the hype that fell a little flat.
I'm assuming that any member of the Kree military would have some (or even a lot of) basic knowledge of where Thanos is from, and where Titan is. So she found them between Titan and Earth, which while still being a needle in a haystack, is a bit more believable. Space magic, as well.
Problem is, most everyone uses jump points. Stark technobabbles about jury-rigging something to get a 'couple more days' out of the ship, but... that doesn't really work for anything but environmental. If they're going somewhere that isn't the local jump point (or somewhere else in the same system), they're just making it harder. If they're going through the local jump point, extra days of power don't matter. Every time we see space travel, its just past orbit, jump, land/enter high orbit at new planet. Except in GoG2, where we see multiple jumps in succession.
If they didn't have the power to jump from Titan to someplace useful, there was no point in going anywhere at all. Just stay on Titan, use far less power for food/water reclamation/emergency beacon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/06 02:24:08
Voss wrote: That's a really generous reading of text that isn't there.
No, it's exactly what happened. You called him "TFG" because he yelled at someone over voice chat. That's a generous reading of the text.
I call him deeply depressed individual suffering from extreme self-loathing over his failures and inability to fix his failures. He recovers throughout the film, first by speaking to his mother, then seeing himself as worthy of Mjolnir, and then finally having the chance to put right what was wrong in the final battle with Thanos. By the end he is going on to be his own person and leaving behind that which he was meant to be to become what he should be.
It's right in the film. Black and white.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/06 02:33:49
To be fair, I have hard time blaming Thor for yelling over voice chat. Years of real life experience tell me anyone who includes "noob" and "69" in their screen name is basically signalling to the whole world that they're a complete douche bag
LordofHats wrote: To be fair, I have hard time blaming Thor for yelling over voice chat. Years of real life experience tell me anyone who includes "noob" and "69" in their screen name is basically signalling to the whole world that they're a complete douche bag
Don't pretend like your own X-Box Live name isn't xXxLordOfHats420xXx!
LordofHats wrote: To be fair, I have hard time blaming Thor for yelling over voice chat. Years of real life experience tell me anyone who includes "noob" and "69" in their screen name is basically signalling to the whole world that they're a complete douche bag
Don't pretend like your own X-Box Live name isn't xXxLordOfHats420xXx!
Thor's journey in Endgame is, quite literally, textbook.
The Ordeal
The Hero engages in the Ordeal, the central life-or-death crisis, during which he faces his greatest fear, confronts this most difficult challenge, and experiences “death”. His Journey teeters on the brink of failure. Indy and Marion are sealed in the Well of the Souls; Annie and Alvy have broken up. And the audience watches in suspense wondering whether the Hero will survive. The Ordeal is the central, essential, and magical Stage of any Journey. Only through “death” can the Hero be reborn, experiencing a resurrection that grants greater powers or insight to see the Journey to the end. The Hero may directly taste death, or witness the death of an Ally or Mentor or, even worse, directly cause that death. The Ordeal may pit Hero against Shadow or Villain, and the Hero’s failure heightens the stakes and questions the Journey’s success
Thor rediscovering he's worthy would be an example of "The Resurrection"
The Resurrection
The Hero faces the Resurrection, his most dangerous meeting with death. This final life-and-death Ordeal shows that the Hero has maintained and can apply all that he has brought back to the Ordinary World. This Ordeal and Resurrection can represent a “cleansing” or purification that must occur now that the Hero has emerged from the land of the dead. The Hero is reborn or transformed with the attributes of his Ordinary self in addition to the lessons and insights from the characters that he has met along the road.
Admittedly, I don't know if a theoretical 'Asguardians of the Galaxy' film would be the Journey Home for Thor, or instead fall under:
In most tales, the Return with the Elixir completes the cycle of this particular Journey. Story lines have been resolved, balance has been restored to the ordinary World, and the Hero may now embark on a new life, forever influenced by the Journey traveled.
In which case, Thor realising it was never his Place to be King, would be the end of that Heroes Journey.
2019/05/06 05:52:07
Subject: Re:Avengers: Endgame -- spoilers so beware
Has it ever been said how the remaining Asguardians got to Earth? I thought their ship got blown up by Thanos, with Thor adrift in space?
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2019/05/06 06:46:05
Subject: Re:Avengers: Endgame -- spoilers so beware
AegisGrimm wrote: Has it ever been said how the remaining Asguardians got to Earth? I thought their ship got blown up by Thanos, with Thor adrift in space?
I must admit that I thought all Asgardians were dead except for Thor at the end of Infinity War. I guess some managed to flee in escape pods and were led by Valkyrie to Earth while the events of Infinity War unfolded. It seems reasonnable.
Also, does anybody know what's supposed to have happened to Sif? She was a no show in Ragnarok and in Endgame yet was alive and well at the end of Thor II.
epronovost wrote: It's rather clear that at the end of Endgame, we will not see Captain America or Stark again on the big screen until a reboot (which could be years from now). We aren't going to see Black Widow and I doubt we will see Clint either. Are we going to see Thor again though? How about Hulk? Are these two from the original cast of Avenger continue on?
We probably won't see Stark or Rogers again. Will Falcon take up the "Captain America" name though? Was the inclusion of the kid from Iron Man 3 keeping their options open on Iron Man reappearing?
Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch." Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!"
2019/05/06 10:53:31
Subject: Re:Avengers: Endgame -- spoilers so beware
I wonder if they will set any of there future films or shows during the five year time skip?
How about a Black Widow movie that's full of flashbacks and seems like a prequel. But is actually Natasha in the Soul Stone? With all the comic book crazy Marvel have gotten movie audiences used to over the years, I'm sure they could pull off a resurrection at the end.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/06 10:55:16
We could still see Rogers. Iirc Evan’s issue with continuing on as Cap was the physical training required to maintain the body for the role. If he just does an old man Mentor thing to Captain Falcon he wouldn’t have to worry about that.
Kind of wished they had introduced Riri before Stark died, although I initially loved that story for interactions with snarky Stark AI, which doesn’t let RDJr off the hook, and Infamous Iron Man Doom, who doesn’t currently exist and in no way could be done at this point. The kid from 3 could fill a similar role, but I can already imagine what that might dredge up if people perceive the white boy as stealing the story line from the poc girl, so they might have to proceed carefully if they go that route. I know I heard some of it from people who think the current Parker is hedging in on Miles’ current themes. They gave Rhodey a lot of screen time, maybe he’ll get a solo to continue the Iron Man name.
I was thinking that Shuri could take over that character role (not as a new Iron Man, but as sarky gadgeteer). And then as you say, keep Rhodey on to do the actual punchy punchy robot stuff.
5000pts 
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