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2014/06/29 17:52:10
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
So, after deciding I'm going to run Skyblight, I bought thirty gargoyles today. Two things:
1) Do people run toxic sacs on them? I understand that they can't use them and blinding venom, but two poison 4+ attacks on the assault makes them more than a tarpit against high toughness foes?
2) Are they the most fiddly Tyranid models to glue? Gluing thirty sets of arms made me nearly rage quit Warhammer!
2014/06/29 22:12:35
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
That's kind of what I was thinking as well. Get a gaunt bubble-wrap going and just trap Draigo and friends in an endless lulz wave of termagaunts.
I will never forget that exact scenario playing out with waves of termagants spewing forth from a never-ending tervigon, I believe that Draigo&co killed 40 something of them ...and never got away. It was magical.
ictoabu wrote:So, after deciding I'm going to run Skyblight, I bought thirty gargoyles today. Two things:
1) Do people run toxic sacs on them? I understand that they can't use them and blinding venom, but two poison 4+ attacks on the assault makes them more than a tarpit against high toughness foes?
2) Are they the most fiddly Tyranid models to glue? Gluing thirty sets of arms made me nearly rage quit Warhammer!
Gargoyles are relatively easy to glue, just do one at a time due to the body/wing matchup ...they're not interchangeable.
Toxin is great if you expect high toughness and want results, but for a tarpit keep them stock. With toxin, they'll do great (terrible?) things to Marines and tougher. I normally keep them stock.
ictoabu wrote: So, after deciding I'm going to run Skyblight, I bought thirty gargoyles today. Two things:
1) Do people run toxic sacs on them? I understand that they can't use them and blinding venom, but two poison 4+ attacks on the assault makes them more than a tarpit against high toughness foes?
2) Are they the most fiddly Tyranid models to glue? Gluing thirty sets of arms made me nearly rage quit Warhammer!
Run them naked or with adrenal glands. Fleet and furious charge make them pretty reliable on the charge, and for the times you need poisoned attacks they come with blinding venom stock.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/06/30 01:16:56
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Hey guys, I need some input on a few things; tactics and general experience on just how far I can push a unit before it hits its limit and I start sending things on suicide missions that they just can't do.
Carnifexes I currently have 3 builds planned for my horde of Carnifexes; Some I have a decent idea of what I can use them for, others, I have no idea whatsoever. Coincidentally, if anyone can come up with another dedicated loadout for another 3 Carnifexes to run, I would love to hear it.
Anti-?-Standard Dakkafex, no real upgrades on it. Never used one before, so I am fairly iffy on just how much it can actually do vs a marine squad, light transports, and heavy armor.
Anti-Infantry- Dual Scything Talons, Bio-Plasma, Spine Banks, Thresher Scythe, and most likely Acid Blood, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration.
Anti-Tank- Scything Talons, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, perhaps even Bio-Plasma? Just how far can I push this for anti-tank, and just how many of these would I have to throw at hardened enemies like Baneblades, Monoliths, Landraiders, and some of the sturdier fortifications (I think they still can get up to AV15?)
Tervigons So, I have plenty of models now, but now I need to focus on the primary focus of what these Tervigons are going to be. The way I see it, these things need to be constantly pushing forward, and eventually I am going to have to come in contact with a squad or even enemy vehicles. So, what would you guys suggest as a durable loadout for anti-infantry and anti-vehicle use?
Tyrannofexes
So, I always hear what a good anti-infantry platform this guy is, but what would you guys recommend for being a permanent anti-infantry and another for anti-tank?
Honestly, I recommend both these units get the full magnet treatment. They seem to change tomuch with codex and meta changes to not go magnets.
A/T depends on how serious you want to get. If you know you will be needing to wreck AV15 fortifications or tearing in to Titans, then Claws are probably required. Otherwise I find the old Screamer-killer still does a real good job.
2014/06/30 03:18:14
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Scared to throw any MC's in there because of force weapons errywhurr.
So your issue is getting them out of the Land Raider. I think the best way to deal with a land raider is generally to ignore it. Especially for your list. If he wants to put 800 points into a land raider and score one objective with it, let him. Kill everything else, and score the other objectives.
If you want to kill it, I would suggest crones and Flyrants with E.Grubs. I think you should also drop a venom for a zoey as a warp charge battery / another source of warp lance. If that doesn't work for you I have a few other suggestions.
#1) Kamikaze MC. Something like a Hauspex or a single CFex with Crushing claws or a TFex with Crushing Claws and E.Grubs. The key is understanding that whatever you use to pop that Land Raider is going to die. You will have to bubble wrap it with something until its task is done. I suggest Gargoyles or Hormagaunts.
#2) Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws. Keep your flyrants solo, but take a squad of 3 Tyrant Guard, give them Crushing Claws, bubble wrap them. The same strategy as above. This only works once, and depends on your opponent not realizing they are a threat to his land Raider.
#3) Genestealers with A.G. Hit on 3's Rend on 6's Glance on 5's. So only 4/6 * 1/6 * 2/6 = 3.7% chance of glancing. So technically you are going to need 36 genestealers charging to have even odds of pulling this off. I would only take 1 unit, and I would count on charging multiple times. Infiltrate them forward with the front units in terrain, and conga-line back to a venom. If the first 4 are in ruins you have a 2+ cover for a bit. The advantage of genestealers, is that Draigo and the Paladins aren't going to want to charge them very much. Power weapons do nothing to them. They can bypass armor. Just make sure the rest of your army keeps the rest of his army occupied until the Genestealers have done their work.
#4) Tyranid Lord of War. Barbed Heridule, Harridan, and bio-titan all have the firepower to deal with land raiders and Draigo.
2014/06/30 09:13:27
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Yeah, Land Raiders are tough. More often than not, I attempt to control where their primary target it.
Typically a unit in a Land Raider is a tough, killy, melee unit. Their target isn't going to be gants, it'll be your MCs. I'd consider overloading MCs on one side of the board (hopefully far away from objectives). Send in a bait MC to either take on the LR as tag8833 suggested. If you take it down cool, but if you don't and the unit inside needs to disembark to deal with it let them do so. Feed them a Carnifex or an "expendable" MC. Once they've disembarked, use your mobility to leave them behind.
I don't think it's necessarily reliable, as you should destroy the LR in order to remove THEIR mobility, but it's an option.
2014/06/30 13:39:19
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
ictoabu wrote: So, after deciding I'm going to run Skyblight, I bought thirty gargoyles today. Two things:
1) Do people run toxic sacs on them? I understand that they can't use them and blinding venom
Why wouldn't they be able to use them and blinding venom?
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2014/06/30 20:24:27
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I learned a lot, I would have definitely liked to have another Devourer Carnifex but that Stranglethorn one was nailing Warrior blobs left and right, he never missed.
Tomorrow I get to play an awesome 2500 game against a friend I havent seen in months, he's taking Deamons. Last time we played it was our old codex and Tyranids took the win, I dont know if it will be so clean this time around.
ictoabu wrote: So, after deciding I'm going to run Skyblight, I bought thirty gargoyles today. Two things:
1) Do people run toxic sacs on them? I understand that they can't use them and blinding venom
Why wouldn't they be able to use them and blinding venom?
Not 100% on this, but the Blinding Venom profile says "..a model can exchange all of it''s normal attacks to make a single blinding venom attack, which uses the following profile..." which is poisoned 6+ and Blind.
The Toxin sacs rule says it makes all their close combat attacks poisoned, and as it hasn't a number in brackets, the poisoned rule says "If no number is shown in brackets, the rule is Poisoned (4+). "
I read that as either poisoned 4+ attacks or one poisoned 6+ attack with Blind.
2014/07/01 01:51:37
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Blinding Venom is a close combat attack, it would have both Poisoned (4+) and Poisoned (6+) if the Gargoyles had Toxin Sacs.
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2014/07/01 14:33:49
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Fighting 2500pts of Khorne dominated Daemons in about two hours with a friend of mine, should be a lot of fun. He can literally field a sea of Bloodletters, he's got hundreds of Daemons...Going to shoot them off the board:
jy2 wrote: Another better investment instead of the Prime + 1 Guard (190-pts, right?) is to just field 4 separate zoanthropes. That's 4 separate units that your opponent would have to waste his firepower to potentially overkill (say you had 1 unit of devastators with 4 missile launchers. Would you want to waste that just to take out 1 zoanthrope or would your rather use them to fire at something else). That's also 4 separate beacons of 18" synapse that can spread out, kill tanks with Warp Blast, buff the army with other psychic powers and which provide 2 warp dice each.
As for shrikes, with your Apoc army, then it shouldn't be a problem. Have at it!
That is true, isn't it. I think I can add a couple more Zoanthropes down the road for rounding out my army. Who knows, I might just do a bit more planning for when I finish up this last little bit of my college career and start seeing you and the rest of the team more often Jim down at the BAO, NOVA, etc. Might decide to humor you and see if I can't set the record for most models and "Assistant Movement Staff" fielded during a tournament.
One bit of speculation before I head off to work; I do not know how most of the rest of you feel about them, but have we all but gotten rid of hope of using the Trygon tunnels for some surprise fun? I actually have been looking at them as a semi-viable way to get Pyrovores to work. Some Devilgaunts, etc, etc, pop in and hose light transports, blobs, etc, etc, and then stick 3 nice juicy templates in the neighborhood to mop up what is left, and also discourage assault, since you will most likely practically have to charge both units in such a small area.
If you do any of the West Coast tourneys, you should aim for the LVO. That has got to be our flagship GT.
As for trygon tunnels, I see it going very well with the Endless Swarm. The problem with the Endless Swarm is that it is quite slow. Trygon tunnels will give them an almost immediate way to reach objectives and threaten enemy units on the turn they come in.
SHUPPET wrote: Sorry about my last post jy2, was 4 am for me and I misinterpreted the tone of your post.
You are right, Cents are the most cost effective unit against us and play to all our weaknesses. I'm considering taking a Garg tarpit, but in MC heavy its a surefire target for anti-infantry weaponry and I worry it will get cut down to size before it can do its job. Also, 180 pts for 30 Gargs is 170 for an Exocrine.
No worries.
IMO, I would prefer 30 gargs over 1 exocrine in a TAC Tyranid list. With shrouded cover and perhaps Catalyst, they just may surprise you with their resiliency against anti-infantry flak.
Since gate got moved to Santic, is Tiggy still the force multiplier that he once was in 6th? I was thinking Coteaz would be the preferred escort. The only Centstar player I know takes 2 Land Raiders, 2 centurion squads, and Draigo, and that has been his list for years. I haven't played him for logistical reasons, and because he only plays 2000 points and Kill points, so he has a fixed advantage especially against tyranids. I figured I would try him once I got up to 3 Crones and an Exocrine, or bring my Eldar allies. I figure he can't be a terribly good player if he has to put that many restrictions on his games.
Also, assault with FMC's isn't a terribly viable option anymore. You've got to land for a full turn before you assault. Better off vector striking and throwing warp lances / general wounds at them. 7th has really changed the way we have to play our FMCs.
Well, being Lvl 3 with the ability to re-roll psychic powers, he is much better at fishing for powers that you want. Also, don't under-estimate his fighting prowess. With a force stave, he is hitting at S6 with a force weapon. He ID'd several of my Necron wraiths and my Destroyer Lord in 1 combat before. Then again, he got for his powers Misfortune, Prescience and Forewarning (thus, giving the Centurionstar 2+/4++ in combat with my wraiths). So yeah, he is still a great force-multiplier. Of course you could go for both Tiggy and Coteaz to make the unit even more dangerous. Then we'd be talking about a true deathstar.
Honestly, I never really played my FMC's as assault units, even back in 6th. I used to run them more as gunboats so the change in 7th won't really affect my playstyle too much (with the exception of the Vector Strikes). Just make sure to take Electroshock grubs on the MC's that can take it. If you manage to get Warp Lance, then that's great, though personally, I would never rely on that "tactic". Yeah, 7th has made our FMC's more survivable but also less capable of delivering the performances that they used to back in 6th.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlaxicanX wrote: What would you guys consider to be the best solution for dealing with Draigo and some paladins in a Land Raider?
Scared to throw any MC's in there because of force weapons errywhurr.
Go MSU and run a lot of units. Instead of 3x20 termagants, go 6x10 gants. Split up the carnifexes into 3x1 units (instead of a 1x3 carnistar). Deathstar armies are limited in their ability to deal with multiple units. That's what you want to do. Present them with a lot of targets and force them to choose. They can't be everywhere at once! Just make sure you spread out your units (and also to spread out the objectives when placing them) to deny his paladins the multi-assault.
Iechine wrote: Had my game against Necrons, heres how it went!
I learned a lot, I would have definitely liked to have another Devourer Carnifex but that Stranglethorn one was nailing Warrior blobs left and right, he never missed.
Tomorrow I get to play an awesome 2500 game against a friend I havent seen in months, he's taking Deamons. Last time we played it was our old codex and Tyranids took the win, I dont know if it will be so clean this time around.
Rough game. Necrons are a weird army to play against. On paper, their non-extreme builds don't look that scary, but they are an army that relies just as much on army synergy as our bugs. I've surprised a lot of people even with my more casual Necron army (the Fun-crons). They''re an army that is easy to under-estimate, but Necrons can be quite good.
Iechine wrote: Fighting 2500pts of Khorne dominated Daemons in about two hours with a friend of mine, should be a lot of fun. He can literally field a sea of Bloodletters, he's got hundreds of Daemons...Going to shoot them off the board:
Shooting is definitely the way to go against Khorne daemons. Screening a la gargoyles helps as well. I think you will do ok against a Khorne list with the army you have right now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/01 15:44:52
1. Our FMCs still make awesome gunboats. So far I feel the assault nerf hasn't affected their effectiveness at all. Against armies like Tau, I used to never make it close enough to assault. Now, I have more turns of shooting.
A second thought Ive been having: Shrikes. I feel like they might actually be a good unit now that everything scores. You drop OS and from a 4+ to 5+ save, but you get a much faster synapse unit... I'm thinking Shrikes may be a pretty good option.
2014/07/01 16:57:08
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I haven't really looked so I'm not sure if this was discussed yet, but is Skyblight Swarm still worth it to take regarding the scoring changes of 7th edition? What do standard, competitive army lists look like now? I haven't been keeping up since 7th edition dropped.
2014/07/02 07:15:42
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I haven't really looked so I'm not sure if this was discussed yet, but is Skyblight Swarm still worth it to take regarding the scoring changes of 7th edition? What do standard, competitive army lists look like now? I haven't been keeping up since 7th edition dropped.
Yes, it pretty much always will be. It just isn't the no-brainer it was in 6th. Several other formations that Tyranids have access to are very good. See Living Artillery node, Endless swarm, and Skyblight; they still very much our stand out formations.
2014/07/02 09:56:06
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Roxor is right although it's worth mentioning WHY it's not as good, so that you aren't just doing what the most recent person to post tells you to do in regards to taking Skyblight or not.
Skyblight got worse in 7th due to the fact that our FMCs got worse. For starters, Vektor Strike got worse for all of them except Flyrant for whom it is still a very NICHE utility (good V TEQ now). In no way does that make up for the hit Crones took.
On top of this, FMCs like Flyrant who pay a lot for WS7 and their attacks, can no longer reliably glide into combat (there is ways to make it happen, or take the risk, but it's an undeniable nerf). It was a really good way to squeeze a lot more damage out of your lists in final turns.
Then, every single unit gets scoring in 7th. Except for anything in the air. Even transports score. This indirectly hurts when anything else you could take instead got much better.
On the note of scoring, Skyblight Gargs are still good, but were better in 6th when they were the only Objective Secured units in the game. Now they are just FOC swapped to count as troops.
This compared to a ground list, which got largely better with the effectiveness of Zoeys actually loving the Psyker changes, Master of Ambush being huge, and being able to easily integrate Carnifexes cohesively, who are not only a good unit to synergise with both these buffs but are also a great way to make up for the massive board control Smash nerf (which affected both builds).
Skyblight doesn't suck though. Not at all, although you can do much better with Nids IMO. It's also kind of cheesy in the sense that you will lose to anyone who knows you are bringing it, p easy to counter. It's also a pretty inflexible build, and people don't enjoy playing against Flyer spam in general, which is the only way Skyblight is worth it. After all the nerfs it received it no longer dominates scoring like it once did, in fact it struggles to compete on this front. Winning through dominating the skies with 7-8 versatile anti-infantry/anti-tank FMCs and focusing anything with any sort of AA capability, will be the best way to victory with that formation.
Stand out formation is hands down Living Artillery.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/02 10:06:39
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/07/02 13:39:14
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
That's very good news to hear considering I basically have both formations, model-wise. I was planning on making two separate lists, one for Skyblight and the other for Living Artillery Node.
2014/07/02 16:54:19
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Journeyman351 wrote: That's very good news to hear considering I basically have both formations, model-wise. I was planning on making two separate lists, one for Skyblight and the other for Living Artillery Node.
I like them both, but with Living Artillery, I can modify the list easier, because the Formation is a smaller chunk of the total cost.
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/07/02 17:39:32
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Add to that, the fact that if you aren't taking Skyblight for max Flyrants and Crones, then competitively there is no point in taking it at all. The extra air saturation is the only reason for this formation at the moment, otherwise you are better off just taking a regular list of Flyers and having more control, E.G. Crones instead of Harpys.
Skyblight is an almost inflexible build in 7th.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/07/03 03:32:26
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
SHUPPET wrote: Add to that, the fact that if you aren't taking Skyblight for max Flyrants and Crones, then competitively there is no point in taking it at all. The extra air saturation is the only reason for this formation at the moment, otherwise you are better off just taking a regular list of Flyers and having more control, E.G. Crones instead of Harpys.
Skyblight is an almost inflexible build in 7th.
I'm not sure where your Skyblight hate come from Shuppet. Is it something that you have a lot of experience with, or are you just bucking the trend of Skyblight being the hotness for Tournament Tyranids? Is it any better to jump on the living artillery band wagon?
Skyblight took some nerfs, especially in the form of vector strikes, but it got some serious buffs as well. Armies that had trouble dealing with air before, now will have much more trouble. I used to be able to run 4 FMCs in mid level friendly games in 6th. In 7th, 2 FMC's and I'm labeled a "Power Gamer". The only game of 7th where I ran 4 FMC, I killed a Imperial Knight on turn 1 for first blood, and my opponent rage quit. I've only lost 3 Flyrants in all the games of 7th I've played so far. 1 was to perils, 1 due to landing on turn 5 to score an objective, and only 1 was killed in the air. The survivability buff of only a single grounding check a turn is amazing. The net effect of the changes of 7th is that Harpies do less damage, Crones do less damage, but Flyrants make up for it by still doing damage on turn 3, turn 4, and turn 5. Add to that the meta shift due to the nerf to Interceptor aka Quadguns are leaving many players without a viable anti-air strategy. Burstides and Skyrays can still pluck our FMC's out of the sky, but meta shifts are indicating more Ion tides. Wave Serpent spam will still kill skyblight, but not quite as fast as it used to.
As far as Skyblight vs taking just the same units in a normal combined arms detachment, you are kinda missing the point of Skyblight. The FMCs are great, but the Gargoyles win you the game. Gargoyles are such a superior troop option when compared to other Tyranid troops. In 7th with Maelstrom missions making an impact, mobile scoring is more important than ever. Sure, you have the same killing power if you take Skyblight as a normal CAD, but you are going to win many, many fewer games.
Skyblight sucks because it is GW telling us how to build a list, not because 7th edition nerfed it into non-competitiveness. Skyblight sucks because it is hailed and reviled as the only way to play Tyranids competitively, not because it isn't a damn effective way to play Tyranids competitively.
2014/07/03 08:03:36
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Very good points about the FMCs survivability. I won't even disagree with them.
The Gargs however not so much. Yeah they are our best troop option - hands down. Probably the only ones playable on their own merits. Is it worth trading off the power difference between two Harpys instead of two Crones? Very very unlikely, you are better off just taking min troops and a bunch of good units if you aren't using it for the extra FOC slots, rather than having to pay tax for good scoring units, and still needing to take your min size troops anyway. Obj Scored is no longer unique to them and you can get much cheaper deepstriking objective secured units in Rippers who don't even need to worry about Synapse .
I don't know what's with the insinuations that I'm bandwagoning with Living Artillery, and against Skyblight, or whatever.
I've been speaking it's praise for literally as long as you have.
luke1705 wrote: On an unrelated note, why do people feel that warriors are less durable than zoanthropes? I know about the strength 8+ weaponry, but they'll usually be getting cover and there are 3 of them vs just 1 zoan. Also, they super-score on their own, which is nice. They also can hold their own in combat for a few turns and can put out more reliable shooting. Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors? Tervigons are too expensive (points-wise) to me.
Warriors are generally more survivable than Zoeys. But Zoeys are such great Warp Charge batteries, and psychic support units, Plus you can have 2 broods of Zoenthropes for the cost of 1 Brood of warriors.
I've been using a brood of 3 Warriors in my Living Artillery formation and they've been really surprising.
They never leave cover, they snipe with a Barbed Strangler (which is pretty decent for such a cheap weapon, especially since you can re-roll the scatter thanks to the formation), and they are surprisingly hard to kill.
They are now my preferred back-field Synapse unit, and although they don't have Objective Secured they still score and can helpfully keep any small Termagant units spawned by the Tervigon in line (allowing me to take the Termagants away from the Tervigon, in case it explodes).
My other Troops choices are just a Tervigon with Egrubs and 30 regular Termagants. It works fine for 1k games. At 1850, you'll probably need something a little more.
I too take three for the exocrine formation. They generally do something worthwhile and are like terminators to small arms fire (you are focusing high strength weaponry down anyway) as far as troops go they are decent.
However in context to the rest of the army is rather spend as little points as possible on troops (personal choice). I just take min size squads of what's needed for FOC / formations. I.e while a squad of 4 warriors might put in work if you play them well, a dakkafex is doing more every single game
On top of that, while I admitted Skybliggt was a strong build yester-edition, I've never been a fan of how linear and stupid design it is, and I'm quite happy to see that it's no longer the go-to build this edition except for people who LIKE having their entire list written for them. It's not hate, it's me observing the capabilities of different units and builds from a competitive standpoint. It certainly isn't bandwagoning, and if it is, I'm the damn driver of the Wagon lol as evidenced here:
SHUPPET wrote: Is it worth trading off the power difference between two Harpys instead of two Crones?
The power difference between Harpies and Crones is just the difference between Spore Bombs and Haywire missiles. The Drool Cannon is no better than a TL Barbed Strangler. It is less versatile, but does ignore cover. The Spore Bomb vs Haywire missiles is less cut and dry. Spore Bombs are good against infantry, while Haywire Missiles are good against Vehicles. I prefer haywire missile, because I am weak against Vehicles elsewhere, but you are saving 20 points. I've experimented with giving Harpies Cluster Spines, but don't think that is worth it.
SHUPPET wrote: Obj Scored is no longer unique to them and you can get much cheaper deepstriking objective secured units in Rippers who don't even need to worry about Synapse .
I think the ripper fad is not long for this world. It is created by theory hammer, and non-representative outlying experiences. Show me a Tyranid batrep where they out perform 10 termigants and I will be impressed. They certainly never have in my games, and Team O-comp who has been perpetuating the assertion that rippers are a viable unit just posted a batrep where they wildly under performed compared to gaunts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyBGvFJEw0 There was a guy a while back who used an Aegis to block line of sight to them, but that was in 6th when you could deploy an Aegis at midfield. To use them effectively, you are dependent on scatter, terrain, and your enemy lacking S6 shooting or assault to dedicate to their removal. Any one of those things goes poorly, and you should have brought gaunts.
2014/07/03 12:58:21
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
I don't like Rippers either I was just saying that you can cover their role. Maybe you are right, OS Gary's respawning is good, I just don't think it's worth it
Everyone is weak v Vehicles, it's the main handicap of Tyranids. So while you can compare Harpys and Crones on paper, in practice you are making your list weaker. And I just don't see it being worth the Gargs, although I'll admit it's a tradeoff, it might be a more balanced one if Crones weren't crucial to skyforce Nids.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/03 12:59:51
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2014/07/03 14:00:05
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
In regards to Harpies vs Crones, I think the main thing to keep in mind is that the Crone is more or less strictly a damage dealer while the Harpy is more of an assault support unit. It has a pinning weapon by default which gives it a chance (albeit small) of shutting down overwatch and can also potentially create Spore Mines soak up overwatch for other critters. Also, its Sonic Screech ability pairs very nicely with Blinding Venom (and Acid Blood if you incidentally have something with it) and is a huge help in taking down things like Knights that otherwise get to swing before Carnifexes or similar armor-cracker.
I do agree though that the Crone is better in an air-force list, but I think the Harpy has a place in more combined arms lists.
On a different note, I had a rather fun Maelstrom game this week. Since our group has become a bit swamped with somewhat cut-throat lists, I brought an extremely fluffy themed list just for giggles and a change of pace:
I ended up against a Necron player running an unbound list with 4 Monoliths, a Destroyer Lord, (normal) C'tan Shard, a Spyder, and a few Scarab Swarms. Needless to say, I failed to take down any of his monoliths but I ended up winning on Victory Points thanks to all the deepstriking units hopping on objectives. The Red Terror sadly didn't get a chance to swallow anything of importance whole, as once I showed my opponent what his special rule did he sent his Destroyer Lord to the other side of the table via monolith portal.
I have to say though, I actually kinda like the Red Terror as a Warlord. He is more survivable than he initially appears thanks to his ability to go to ground and his 3-wound bodyguards to Look-out sir! wounds away to (he ended the game having taken only one wound, the Raveners soaked up the rest).
Need to play around with him more...
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/07/03 14:16:13
2014/07/03 16:20:10
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
Strat_N8 wrote: In regards to Harpies vs Crones, I think the main thing to keep in mind is that the Crone is more or less strictly a damage dealer while the Harpy is more of an assault support unit. It has a pinning weapon by default which gives it a chance (albeit small) of shutting down overwatch and can also potentially create Spore Mines soak up overwatch for other critters. Also, its Sonic Screech ability pairs very nicely with Blinding Venom (and Acid Blood if you incidentally have something with it) and is a huge help in taking down things like Knights that otherwise get to swing before Carnifexes or similar armor-cracker.
I do agree though that the Crone is better in an air-force list, but I think the Harpy has a place in more combined arms lists.
On a different note, I had a rather fun Maelstrom game this week. Since our group has become a bit swamped with somewhat cut-throat lists, I brought an extremely fluffy themed list just for giggles and a change of pace:
I ended up against a Necron player running an unbound list with 4 Monoliths, a Destroyer Lord, (normal) C'tan Shard, a Spyder, and a few Scarab Swarms. Needless to say, I failed to take down any of his monoliths but I ended up winning on Victory Points thanks to all the deepstriking units hopping on objectives. The Red Terror sadly didn't get a chance to swallow anything of importance whole, as once I showed my opponent what his special rule did he sent his Destroyer Lord to the other side of the table via monolith portal.
I have to say though, I actually kinda like the Red Terror as a Warlord. He is more survivable than he initially appears thanks to his ability to go to ground and his 3-wound bodyguards to Look-out sir! wounds away to (he ended the game having taken only one wound, the Raveners soaked up the rest).
Need to play around with him more...
Nice! I would have used Zoeys instead of Hive Guard, but that's just me. Much love for "Hungry, hungry Rippers!" I'd guess the best possible Warlord trait is the "brain eater" one.
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/07/03 16:42:33
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (LoW Tactica p. 118)
pinecone77 wrote: Nice! I would have used Zoeys instead of Hive Guard, but that's just me. Much love for "Hungry, hungry Rippers!" I'd guess the best possible Warlord trait is the "brain eater" one.
Hehe, well as I said it was a themed list. I was going for end-stage feeder organisms + hive security organisms (i.e. Tervigons and Hive Guard) with the Red Terror thrown in so I'd have some sort of Warlord (and he does kinda fit with the Haruspex and Mawlocs as another "feeder" beast). If I remember right I tried to roll on Strategic for the infiltration/outflank trait, but got the stealth-in-ruins one instead. I think if I were to use him as my Warlord again I'd probably go for personal instead, as there isn't anything on that chart that won't benefit him in some way.
On the other hand, getting Synaptic Lynchpin or Mindeater would be rather comical on him...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/03 16:43:53
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I'd guess the best possible Warlord trait is the "brain eater" one. 