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vaklor4 wrote: Skull Cannons ABSOLUTELY have a place in any Daemons list. They are very cheap at 100 points, they don't profile, they ignore cover bonuses (which is real handy post-faq), and can easily deal damage to pretty much everything in the game, to some degree. Sure, d6 shots is unreliable, but strength 8, BS 3+, -2 AP and d3 damage are pretty solid. In my experience, they're actually a very, very good anti-infantry gun. They wound most of any infantry models on a 2+, and the -2 means that even Marines have to roll a 5+ to avoid damage, and the d3 means you can pretty effectively kill TEQs.
Heck, i've used skull cannons to great effect against light tanks as well. Not vindicators or anything like that, but Dreadnaughts and Predators will at least get a healthy chunk taken out of them each turn. And with their solid melee stats, a skull cannon can protect itself without needing serious bubblewrapping.
My army is a mix though, it's CSM and Daemons (because it uses a lot of heavy options from both). So I have Princes, Maulerfiend, Inferno Predator, considering some terminators or obliterators, Tzeentch Flamers as an anti-infantry deepstrike unit.
Have a few hundred points spare though, and am wanting to fill it with more biggies. Hence considering skull cannon, or fateskimmer, or a contemptor (or even a leviathan).
Considered an armiger, but that would mean needing a super-heavy detachment, and I am already using 3 detachments.
Edit: Realised I didn't make my point that actually replies to your message haha. Skull Cannon seems good for a pure Daemons army, but is there any other better (for the cheap points) options if you add in the CSM/FW options available?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/08 02:51:08
I'm assuming that what you mean is that you have death hex on two casters so that you can spread them out, and so whichever part of your army gets attacked by a flyrant on any particular turn, you have someone around to hex it to help you kill it?
Yep that's what I meant by double death hex. Can't cast two in the same turn but you can have two casters with them so you can cover both flanks and if one goes down you still have another to fly or warptime over to the other side and blow up that flyrant
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/08 02:56:41
I'm assuming that what you mean is that you have death hex on two casters so that you can spread them out, and so whichever part of your army gets attacked by a flyrant on any particular turn, you have someone around to hex it to help you kill it?
Yep that's what I meant by double death hex. Can't cast two in the same turn but you can have two casters with them so you can cover both flanks and if one goes down you still have another to fly or warptime over to the other side and blow up that flyrant
Yeh that makes sense, I've considered doubling up on certain important powers too but I often prefer to have variety. Depends on the list of course.
Death hex is just one of those incredibly threatening but kind of hard to pull off/risky spells since it only has a 12" range and WC8. I always used to take it on my CSM Sorcerers in my cultist gunlines but I would either A) never be in range to cast it or B) the sorcerer gets jumped by a flying beatstick and dies or C) the sorcerer just fails his the cast.
Having two death hexes with a free Gaze of Fate reroll and with the +1 to cast on Ahriman really helped me ensure I got value out of that spell. Even if the flying beatstick kills one death hexer, it still dies to the other. Now that I think about it, only having 1 death hex on a regular CSM sorcerer seems pretty unreliable because even if he warptimes his way into range, he still has a pretty high chance of failing to cast, which means the beatstick keeps his invuln, survives combat, and eats the sorcerer the following turn. Death Hex on a Weaver of Fates DP or Ahriman backed up by Gaze of Fate seems like the way to go.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/08 03:11:29
Skull Cannon is a unit that sees 0 competitive play. The damage is bellow average for it's points. Durability is OK. However when you can just ally in stuff like obliterators, knights, DG vehicles - there's no point in taking Skull Cannons.
Burning Chariots are about on the same level as Skull Cannons with some cool stuff like FLY, faster movement, autohits but lower damage and durability.
For Skull Cannon to be good it needs to be 70-80 pts instead of 100.
For Burning chariots to be good they need to be about 80 pts instead of 120
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/08 13:17:38
18 CP, I'll spend 7 on reserves (bloodmaster, Skarbrand and big bloodletter blobs), and another 4 to give banners of blood. Considering an additional for crimson crown or the Nurgle sword on a DP, but I don't think either are needed. I'll have 7cp to play with and probably blow in the first 2 turns. Plan is to cover all objectives with nurglings as well as harass. Move a PB blob to mid field and act as a tarpit (miasma for -2 to hit). 3 DP for any fliers or big targets. Then T2, +40 bloodletters bomb in with skarbrand and do what they do best.
list is fine i would just swap skarbrand for 30 more Pb's
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I've run a similar list in the past, you're gonna have a bad day if you get a long deployment type/go second due to being full melee. With that said, here are my suggestions:
Firstly, I'd suggest you reduce your bloodletter squads to 20x, that way you save 2 CP when putting them in reserve. I'd spend the spare points to max out your PB screen (and use your spare CP to do warp surge on that screen, in the instance you go second). Or, if you wanted to go whole hog, you could upgrade your third bloodletter squad to 20x + banner +instrument instead. The problem I find with big blood letter squads is that they rarely survive past the first turn, and even with 3d6+reroll charges, they don't always all get in range to swing due to the sheer number of models.
Secondly, I'd spend the one CP for an extra relic as well, especially if your gameplan is to drop the herald w/ the letter bombs, you'll be generating a ton of bonus hits.
Thirdly, I'd prioritize your CP expenditure around warp surge/insane bravery to protect your screen (and Skarbrand once he drops, as he tends to draw a lot of attention). There's enough dakka in the game to wipe a full PB army out first turn, so always always always warp surge them if you end up going second.
Fourthly, I tend to either wipe my opponent out or get tabled when I play a Khorne Daemon heavy list. saving a 3 CP in the pocket to attack a second time is a major clutch move for your list. Very hard to do with 7 CP, but weigh your options. It might make more sense to remove wings from your Khorne DP (reducing his cp by 1) or starting him on foot. If you make Skarbrand your warlord he can buff rerolls.
Finally, pick your melee phases carefully, if you charge a knight and a smash captain in the same phase, just expect your opponent to interrupt. a knight will turn your blood letter bomb into blood letter jelly real fast. The same goes for your skull reaver DP. Also, once blood letter bombs are deployed, they're extremely slow, so be careful not to be baited into a corner of the map, that you'll have to foot slog out of.
vaklor4 wrote: Skull Cannons ABSOLUTELY have a place in any Daemons list. They are very cheap at 100 points, they don't profile, they ignore cover bonuses (which is real handy post-faq), and can easily deal damage to pretty much everything in the game, to some degree. Sure, d6 shots is unreliable, but strength 8, BS 3+, -2 AP and d3 damage are pretty solid. In my experience, they're actually a very, very good anti-infantry gun. They wound most of any infantry models on a 2+, and the -2 means that even Marines have to roll a 5+ to avoid damage, and the d3 means you can pretty effectively kill TEQs.
Heck, i've used skull cannons to great effect against light tanks as well. Not vindicators or anything like that, but Dreadnaughts and Predators will at least get a healthy chunk taken out of them each turn. And with their solid melee stats, a skull cannon can protect itself without needing serious bubblewrapping.
My army is a mix though, it's CSM and Daemons (because it uses a lot of heavy options from both). So I have Princes, Maulerfiend, Inferno Predator, considering some terminators or obliterators, Tzeentch Flamers as an anti-infantry deepstrike unit.
Have a few hundred points spare though, and am wanting to fill it with more biggies. Hence considering skull cannon, or fateskimmer, or a contemptor (or even a leviathan).
Considered an armiger, but that would mean needing a super-heavy detachment, and I am already using 3 detachments.
Edit: Realised I didn't make my point that actually replies to your message haha. Skull Cannon seems good for a pure Daemons army, but is there any other better (for the cheap points) options if you add in the CSM/FW options available?
Cheaper? No. Better? Yes. Leviathan Dread is better, and Helverian Armigers are better, but both cost well over the cost of a skull cannon. The skull cannon has a low amount of fire power..But the beauty of it is that it costs 100 flat. There is nothing (even in the range of helbrutes) that can boast that cheap of a point cost for a heavy weapons platform with high toughness.
Waelfwulf wrote: I've run a similar list in the past, you're gonna have a bad day if you get a long deployment type/go second due to being full melee. With that said, here are my suggestions:
Firstly, I'd suggest you reduce your bloodletter squads to 20x, that way you save 2 CP when putting them in reserve. I'd spend the spare points to max out your PB screen (and use your spare CP to do warp surge on that screen, in the instance you go second). Or, if you wanted to go whole hog, you could upgrade your third bloodletter squad to 20x + banner +instrument instead. The problem I find with big blood letter squads is that they rarely survive past the first turn, and even with 3d6+reroll charges, they don't always all get in range to swing due to the sheer number of models.
Secondly, I'd spend the one CP for an extra relic as well, especially if your gameplan is to drop the herald w/ the letter bombs, you'll be generating a ton of bonus hits.
Thirdly, I'd prioritize your CP expenditure around warp surge/insane bravery to protect your screen (and Skarbrand once he drops, as he tends to draw a lot of attention). There's enough dakka in the game to wipe a full PB army out first turn, so always always always warp surge them if you end up going second.
Fourthly, I tend to either wipe my opponent out or get tabled when I play a Khorne Daemon heavy list. saving a 3 CP in the pocket to attack a second time is a major clutch move for your list. Very hard to do with 7 CP, but weigh your options. It might make more sense to remove wings from your Khorne DP (reducing his cp by 1) or starting him on foot. If you make Skarbrand your warlord he can buff rerolls.
Finally, pick your melee phases carefully, if you charge a knight and a smash captain in the same phase, just expect your opponent to interrupt. a knight will turn your blood letter bomb into blood letter jelly real fast. The same goes for your skull reaver DP. Also, once blood letter bombs are deployed, they're extremely slow, so be careful not to be baited into a corner of the map, that you'll have to foot slog out of.
I'll try the smaller blobs, I was focusing too much on the +1 WS for +20, I figure a few will die on overwatch, no matter what I charge. If the Khorne Prince can be nearby, it shouldn't hurt that bad to be WS3. I hadn't ever really looked at the Khorne strats, 3CP to sing again is legit, so more CP is better for me. I wanted the axe DP from khorne because I've heard such amazing things about his damage output. If I face a pesky flier, I want to make sure I have something that can deal with it quickly, or at least scare it enough to force it away from key targets. Also, starting him on the table without wings seems crazy to me. I don't know i I've ever used a prince without wings. Though with the fly nerf, I'll have to see how big the difference is. Charging over things was the biggest perk, as well as getting up on ruins to munch on infantry.
chimeara wrote: How are Bloodcrushers on the table? They seem great on paper, but does it translate?
They aren't good. Like, HILARIOUSLY compared to anything else the Khorne Daemons have to offer. They get outclassed in speed by hounds, and outclassed in durability and offensive power by Bloodletters. I've done math, i've played games, and I can safely tell you that at 47 ppm, the Bloodcrusher is one of the most redundantly bad units in the game.
chimeara wrote: How are Bloodcrushers on the table? They seem great on paper, but does it translate?
They aren't good. Like, HILARIOUSLY compared to anything else the Khorne Daemons have to offer. They get outclassed in speed by hounds, and outclassed in durability and offensive power by Bloodletters. I've done math, i've played games, and I can safely tell you that at 47 ppm, the Bloodcrusher is one of the most redundantly bad units in the game.
That's unfortunate. I really want them to be good. I've been building up the ranks of my daemons.
chimeara wrote: How are Bloodcrushers on the table? They seem great on paper, but does it translate?
They aren't good. Like, HILARIOUSLY compared to anything else the Khorne Daemons have to offer. They get outclassed in speed by hounds, and outclassed in durability and offensive power by Bloodletters. I've done math, i've played games, and I can safely tell you that at 47 ppm, the Bloodcrusher is one of the most redundantly bad units in the game.
That's unfortunate. I really want them to be good. I've been building up the ranks of my daemons.
Well, bare in mind the Juggernaut riding Herald is still probably the best of the 3 options, so you can still turn one or two juggerbois into those. But yeah trust me, as a proud owner of 12 Bloodcrushers, it pains me how bad they are.
chimeara wrote: How are Bloodcrushers on the table? They seem great on paper, but does it translate?
They aren't good. Like, HILARIOUSLY compared to anything else the Khorne Daemons have to offer. They get outclassed in speed by hounds, and outclassed in durability and offensive power by Bloodletters. I've done math, i've played games, and I can safely tell you that at 47 ppm, the Bloodcrusher is one of the most redundantly bad units in the game.
That's unfortunate. I really want them to be good. I've been building up the ranks of my daemons.
Well, bare in mind the Juggernaut riding Herald is still probably the best of the 3 options, so you can still turn one or two juggerbois into those. But yeah trust me, as a proud owner of 12 Bloodcrushers, it pains me how bad they are.
Is the juggerherald actually good? I'm tempted to convert skullcrushers into bloodcrushers, but I think they'd work even better as either juggerherald or a mounted Lord maybe.
chimeara wrote: How are Bloodcrushers on the table? They seem great on paper, but does it translate?
They aren't good. Like, HILARIOUSLY compared to anything else the Khorne Daemons have to offer. They get outclassed in speed by hounds, and outclassed in durability and offensive power by Bloodletters. I've done math, i've played games, and I can safely tell you that at 47 ppm, the Bloodcrusher is one of the most redundantly bad units in the game.
That's unfortunate. I really want them to be good. I've been building up the ranks of my daemons.
Well, bare in mind the Juggernaut riding Herald is still probably the best of the 3 options, so you can still turn one or two juggerbois into those. But yeah trust me, as a proud owner of 12 Bloodcrushers, it pains me how bad they are.
Is the juggerherald actually good? I'm tempted to convert skullcrushers into bloodcrushers, but I think they'd work even better as either juggerherald or a mounted Lord maybe.
They have more durability than normal heralds, are 2" faster, have better melee, and still have a relative small base compared to the massive blood throne. The normal herald you need to more or less protect, because a stiff breeze kills it. With the juggerherald, it really feels like a tough nut to crack.
Usually when I run normal heralds, it's for the rerolls to charge. Syncing with my various Daemon robots or the occasional warp talons. Or if I need a cheap HQ to back up a small unit of BL that are capping objectives.
Cheaper? No. Better? Yes. Leviathan Dread is better, and Helverian Armigers are better, but both cost well over the cost of a skull cannon. The skull cannon has a low amount of fire power..But the beauty of it is that it costs 100 flat. There is nothing (even in the range of helbrutes) that can boast that cheap of a point cost for a heavy weapons platform with high toughness.
Yes but what's the point? So instead of taking 2 helverins, you take 3 cannons so that you give away 3 kill points? You're not filling any spearheads with them, I don't think. Helverins and Skullcannons have basically the same durability BTW
Well, if you’re taking a load of Bloodletters, one advantage of the SC over the Armigers is that they’re not requiring another detachment.
Plus, if a big chunk of your ranged firepower ignores cover, then your opponent spending 2CP for +1 save against your Horrors or Blight-haulers or Defiler becomes less efficient.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think they’re sufficiently viable for me to start working out how to convert a couple to have aesthetics I like
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is a Khorne Brigade looking viable-ish?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 12:08:54
Um... even with cover Helverins are better damage for their points... That's the problem. Helverins also have better range and they are way more reliable with 4D3 shots per helverin instead of D6 shots per skull cannon and 3 damage instead of D3 damage.
And if you take them you can build a superheavy detachment for 3CP (you have to include a big boy ofc)
I mean, if you're going for khorne daemons only - they are not terrible. They've just average to bellow average.
However... a brigade requires 3 units of Bloodcrushers.............................................................................................................................................
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 12:41:48
lindsay40k wrote: Well, if you’re taking a load of Bloodletters, one advantage of the SC over the Armigers is that they’re not requiring another detachment.
Plus, if a big chunk of your ranged firepower ignores cover, then your opponent spending 2CP for +1 save against your Horrors or Blight-haulers or Defiler becomes less efficient.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think they’re sufficiently viable for me to start working out how to convert a couple to have aesthetics I like
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is a Khorne Brigade looking viable-ish?
It would if their elites werent so bloated. At 47 ppm, and needing to field 9 for a brigade, you end up wasting way too many points on a largely worthless unit.
That feeling when you drop 100 points off of all greater daemons and only Nurgle is as survivable as current Gallant and Flyrant. Do you think greater daemons would be viable at -100pts. I honestly doubt it. Flyrants can deepstrike for free, are faster, have guns, have the same amount of powers (and stronger powers IMO),have a -1 to psychic test aura, have synapse...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 13:55:10
So, my group is playing power levels, not points. Which I’m fine with. I’ve got this as a 50PL Khorne list currently:
Heavy Support Detachment:
Daemon Prince: Khorne, talons, wings, crimson crown, undecided warlord trait currently (9)
Three skull cannons (15 total)
Ten fleshhounds (8)
Two units of 20 Bloodletters (16)
Two PL left, 4 command points (for blood banners and deep striking BLs). The cannons hammer from a distance and every six they roll in their opening wound salvo gives an additional shot (which is D6) so the numbers have the possibility to rack up. Plus the Prince lets them re-roll ones. Dogs are a bit chompy screen, and as an opponent closes in, the Bloodletters drop with a re-rollable charge of 3D6+1. Ouch?
This is the equivalent of a 1000pt list.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
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Yes, a Helverin is better than a Skull Cannon. I agree on that. It also costs 74% more, and guarantees almost half your opponents will pop smoke on the first turn thereby reducing the rest of your guns’ effectiveness, and in most tourneys will commit one of your three detachments - and need a big expensive third model to yield decent CP.
So. Two Helverins:
- R60 (very good)
- 16ish shots (very good)
- wounding T4 on a 3+, T7 on a 4+, T8 on a 5+ (not bad)
- AP -1 that can be countered by cover (not great)
- 3 damage (very good)
- vulnerable in melee (largely irrelevant)
- M14 (very handy when the enemy close)
- 24W (good)
- deteriorating BS (not good)
- lose half of them when a volcano type gun sneezes (not common, but there you go)
- little to no synergies beyond an ok Stratagem
- somewhat constrains rest of list
That’s viable. I agree, it’s a good unit.
Three Skull Cannons:
- R48 (good)
- 10.5ish shots (ok)
- wounding T4 on a 2+, T7 on a 3+, T8 on a 4+ (good)
- AP -2 that ignores cover (good)
- D3 damage (mediocre)
- can bully in melee (mostly mediocre on a gunner unit)
- M6 (bad)
- 21W (good)
- no deteriorating profile (good)
- lose a third of them when a volcano type gun sneezes (not common, but there you go)
- synergies with DP, CC (not ideal use of those buffs without, say, a LoS getting in on it, but there you go)
- can be part of a Daemons (or Khorne) detachment, 52 points cheaper than above
That’s viable *enough* for me to put a couple on my daemon engines jamboree to-do list and not feel I’ve been sold a Forgefiend with a dodgy gearbox
My hope is that with the next chapter approved, GW will look at what units are not showing up at all, and improve them, instead of mostly looking at spam and bringing the spam units down.
Yes, you can say that everything can be nerfed to the same level, but points adjustments with Khorne daemons will never work. The units are too similar and all have the exact same role. We need bloodcrushers to do something that bloodletters cannot, like be a decent anvil unit. Give them back their +3 save and T5 and I bet we would see them on the table from time to time. They could then compete with units like TWC as a shock unit, instead of us just defaulting to units of 20 bloodletters.
Honestly if bloodcrushers were better than bloodletters statistically(which would be at 20 or less points, not 47 like they are now) - they'd see play along with letters, who would still be taken for their troop benefits
I personally think 30 points is a good range for bloodcrushers. I dont like when they change datasheets, so any attempt to beef them up would just be more confusing for me. At least with points you can simply keep a sticky note in your book.
Well mathematically bloodcrushers do inferior damage until they are 20 points. However even THEN they still do less damage against high armour targets. How insane is that?
However they could compensate that with better durability at that point, they're easier to manage in terms of morale, they cost less CP to deepstrike+3D6 charge.
BUUUUUUUUUUUT remember, again. Bloodleeters still give CP, have obsec (it actually matters often), have more models for board control, better surround, have smaller bases so they can fit through gaps and snipe characters, are infantry so they can climb ruins, etc.
Like, as crazy as it is to think - if I wanted to build an optimal daemons only list... I still might not include bloodcrushers even if they were 20 points a model...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 16:38:28
