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So, I just used Teclis for the first time as an HE player, and only got one round of magic off before he got eaten by Shadowblade. Is there any good, consistent, way to protect Teclis from getting assassinated and then having the unit eat the assassin? The only thing that comes to mind is putting him in the second row of a three-wide unit of some kind, and that honestly strikes me as a TFG sort of move. Any thoughts for my elves specifically or for any high-value casters in general would be greatly appreciated.

Shadowblade has to pick a unit to hide in right? So deploying Teclis with a different unit (or by himself if your really desperate) dodges him quite nicely. Otherwise deploying 3 wide could work I guess. In general Shadowblade is one of the best counters to Teclis, and it balances out the fact that he is really undercosted the rest of the time.

Can shadow blade jump out on turn 1?
If not, just have teclis join another unit on his first movement phase.

Or take lore of shadow, and use smoke and mirrors to swap units in your first magic phase.

-Matt

You could always ban named characters like a sensible metagame. It would solve this problem.

Of course, then he couldn't take Teclis. I think he wants to have his cake and eat it too.

There are plenty of available counters. But your real problem is taking Teclis in the first place; that's the only real reason a DE player will take Shadowblade. Any other target either isn't worth the point expendeture of Shadowblade, or is too tough in close combat for Shadowblade to take. And given that Shadowblade is one of the most reliable ways to deal with Teclis, well, if you field Teclis, expect to see Shadowblade.

Not familiar with Shadowblade at all, but if you had a unit champion in whatever bunker Teclis is in, could you challenge to buy yourself a turn?

I agree with the few people who have said to expect Shadowblade if taking Teclis. In general, the only reason I was taking Teclis was that I lacked the Dragon w/ Prince that I was going to use to take down Malekath.
I'm honestly not overly concerned with Teclis specifically, I'm more concerned with squishy casters in general in this edition Not buying it in one shot from Shadowblade. I realize he very rarely pays for his points Unless he's fighting Teclis, and that because of this, he rarely comes up.
However, all that being said, it seems the only tactical choices are to bunker all of your casters, guess where he'll pop out, and then shift everyone out of that bunker If you get the first turn. I'm seeing less viable options if you don't go first, other than deploying all casters in 3-wide units' second rank.

Maybe you should not run Teclis at all. Shadowblade is very effective at taking out big shots like Teclis and Thorek, but he is very expensive for what he does and can be killed just as easily as Teclis. I play DE and I would never use him, and the few HE players who play in my area soon stopped running Teclis since now one wanted to play them because many see Teclis as a broken character who just ruins the fun of the game. I never had this problem in fun games or tournaments against him but i can see why people get frustrated when playing against him. If your going to run him, only run him in tournaments or competitive games, and that is probably the only time you might see Shadowblade pop up since most DE players dont run him for the most part. I would also advice not to put all your mages in a one bunker as one bad miscast can see your entire unit explode right in front of your eyes ,

I'm totally on board with Not taking Teclis. This was, in fact, the first and only time I've used him, and my opponent knew I was going to be taking him ahead of time.

I'm more concerned with the tactical issue of dealing with someone who can take out Any main caster that I can run, Teclis or not. If I run an arch-mage with a reasonable bit of kit, and shadowblade kills him, shadowblade has paid for himself, in addition to throwing my entire battle-plan out the window. I understand that he's a rarity, and most often used to kill Teclis, but Shadowblade seems to be able to kill Any caster before getting smashed, and I'd like to prepare for the possibility.

For the record, the best HE-specific solution that I've been able to come up with is to throw Caradryn into the unit and have him throw down a challenge. Having no back rank, Shadow-blade Must accept, and then will probably either die to Caradryn's attacks or to his death scream.

True, but still Shadowblade is 300 points, which is a lot for a one hit wonder.

Actually now that I think about it the easiest way to avoid him is to take a Champion/other hero in the unit with Teclis, and then have Teclic take Shadow (which is one of the best lores for HE anyway, otherwise take it on another mage I guess). When Shadowblade shows up you challenge with the Champ and stick around (you will probably lose combat, but will be Steadfast), then next turn you just need to get 1 Shadow spell off and you can swap Teclis out of the unit (for a cheap hero level character, like a Scroll Caddy or cheap Noble). That hero might die as well (since he swaps into contact with Shadowblade), but you can bury Shadowblade with attacks that turn anyway. Losing a Champ and a hero is half the cost of Teclis and definitely worth the trade.

Powerguy wrote:Actually now that I think about it the easiest way to avoid him is to take a Champion/other hero in the unit with Teclis, and then have Teclic take Shadow (which is one of the best lores for HE anyway, otherwise take it on another mage I guess). When Shadowblade shows up you challenge with the Champ and stick around (you will probably lose combat, but will be Steadfast), then next turn you just need to get 1 Shadow spell off and you can swap Teclis out of the unit (for a cheap hero level character, like a Scroll Caddy or cheap Noble). That hero might die as well (since he swaps into contact with Shadowblade), but you can bury Shadowblade with attacks that turn anyway. Losing a Champ and a hero is half the cost of Teclis and definitely worth the trade.

I can just imagine shadowblade suddenly appearing, ready to slay Teclis, when Teclis shouts "TELEPORT!" and disappears in a puff of smoke.

Tethlis the Slayer wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Actually now that I think about it the easiest way to avoid him is to take a Champion/other hero in the unit with Teclis, and then have Teclic take Shadow (which is one of the best lores for HE anyway, otherwise take it on another mage I guess). When Shadowblade shows up you challenge with the Champ and stick around (you will probably lose combat, but will be Steadfast), then next turn you just need to get 1 Shadow spell off and you can swap Teclis out of the unit (for a cheap hero level character, like a Scroll Caddy or cheap Noble). That hero might die as well (since he swaps into contact with Shadowblade), but you can bury Shadowblade with attacks that turn anyway. Losing a Champ and a hero is half the cost of Teclis and definitely worth the trade.

I can just imagine shadowblade suddenly appearing, ready to slay Teclis, when Teclis shouts "TELEPORT!" and disappears in a puff of smoke.

Actually, imagine the look on the face of the Elf hero who was taking a bath when Teclis shouts "TELEPORT" and *poof*, bath time is over, now he's toe to toe with shadowblade, and armed with soap on a rope.

If you think you're going to face shadow blade often, take lore of shadows, and a hero with armor of the stars. That way you teleport out (3D6") after taking the first hit from shadowblade in the challenge. That should let you survive, and actually win the fight.

-Matt

How many points does Shadowblade actually cost?
Is it worth taking him just to defeat Teclis?
(also I would just like to note that the current shadowblade model isn't very good)

Tethlis the Slayer wrote:How many points does Shadowblade actually cost?
Is it worth taking him just to defeat Teclis?
(also I would just like to note that the current shadowblade model isn't very good)

Shadowblade is 300 even, Teclis is 475. Most people argue that the only reason to take Shadowblade at all is to kill Teclis, since other casters can have saves of one kind or another. That being said, if he nukes a bunkered archmage and his death explosion gets a few of the bunker, he's paid for himself.

This is an absolute non issue. You deploy your unit 5+ models wide, with Teclis second on the left and the champion furthest on the right. Shadowblade reveals himself, the champion challenges and Shadowblade has to move across to be in base contact in him, which means he cannot be in base contact with Teclis and so cannot kill him.

This is why Shadowblade is pointless.

I don't have the DE book nor have I faced them since there are no DE players in my area, so I don't know what all Shadowblade has on him, but a good way to protect an Archmage from him is to slap a Forliath's Robe on him and drop him in a unit with a standard bearer and a musician. That way unless Shadowblade has magical attacks, or something that can somehow circumvent the Robe, the only way Shadowblade is going to do anything is through combat resolution. This is why you want your Archmage in a unit so that they can deal wounds back in addition to having a Standard and a Musician to help the final numbers.

GK wrote:True, but still Shadowblade is 300 points, which is a lot for a one hit wonder.

But if he takes out Teclis he has paid for himself.

In fact, that is probably your opponent's game. making you not take Teclis. he is basically saying "If you take Teclis I will just come out and stick him with Shadowblade"


The advice I would give the OP is to not take Teclis.

Teclis is actually a crutch that way too many HE players end up leaning on. He is really good, but you end up relying on that and not developing your own skills. then when Teclis does go poof, or you arn't allowed to take him, you can't compensate.

Ditch Teclis and go with a generic Lvl4. You are still a powerful caster, but not to the point where if you lose him it's game over. You will also save a bucket-load of points. maybe enough to run another hero or make a unit larger.

Challenge him with a champion...

Grey Templar wrote:

GK wrote:True, but still Shadowblade is 300 points, which is a lot for a one hit wonder.

Teclis is actually a crutch that way too many HE players end up leaning on. He is really good, but you end up relying on that and not developing your own skills. then when Teclis does go poof, or you arn't allowed to take him, you can't compensate.

Ditch Teclis and go with a generic Lvl4. You are still a powerful caster, but not to the point where if you lose him it's game over. You will also save a bucket-load of points. maybe enough to run another hero or make a unit larger.

If you take Teclis, he costs a bucketload of points for a S2 T2 model with 3 wounds and no armor save, who can't be hidden in the back of a unit like a Slann.
He has to be good at magic to justify costing 475 points for a frail figure. That's how game balance works. There are risks and rewards.
If you have 475 points to field Teclis, the opponent has 475 points to field units for hunting down Teclis. If he does not, it is him being a bad player and his fault, not the High Elf's.

It's a crutch of bad players to complain about someone using one of their army's good points instead of learning how to play your own army to deal with Teclis.
If the High Elf player doesn't field Teclis, are you going to make his mandatory core troops suck less? How about his overpriced 100 points bolt thrower which is vastly inferior to a Great Cannon? Are you going to let High Elf chariots get +1 impact hit and D6 auto-hits extra and T6 like a Lizardmen chariot? No? You're only fine with there being a handicap on the other player apparently, not on yourself.
Using Teclis for HE is no more a crutch than using Slann Mage Priests and Stegadons for Lizardmen or using cannons and grudge throwers as a Dwarf. Using the Warp Lightning Cannons, Doomwheels, Abominations, Screaming Bells... etc. for the Skaven. High Elves do not have fight-winning core choices or rare choices. A lot of things like Reavers and Shadow Warriors are terrible for their price.
When you cut all the game-winning bits out of the other army books, then you have a right to cry about High Elves utilizing some of our utterly possible to counter choices.

Hurray a subject I have some knowledge into

I know this thread is over a month old already but the subject was too good to pass up(dealing with me )

Is 300 too much for Shadowblade? YES lol, but im faithful to death about using him. Every 1 in 5 games he kills something fantastic, but in those other 4 games he does make his mark, you just have to know how to use him. Lot of fanatics in an goblin army? Deploy him in the middle of the army and set the fanatics loose real early, yea hes dead now but its cool to watch. Warmachines a problem? not anymore. But mostly he's useful for the psycological part against the person you are fighting, not necessarily his army. As the op of this thread proved, how do we deal with shadowblade if you know he's in the army? A person is more likely to make a silly mistake in a tournament setting trying to cover any avenue I may deploy him. And now with the new ASF rules he's not always useless after the first round of combat lol...

But from my angle since I use him so regularly, yes deploy teclis in an obvious protective unit, then on your first turn move him to another unit or at least jump out of the one ur in. He can only be voluntarily revealed after the first turn. Shadowblade's player gets to choose where to place him after all deployments, and after he's revealed that player gets to put him ANYWHERE in base contact with the unit he came out of. Or you can just hope to get lucky and "discover" shadowblade on that roll of a 1...which has happened to me in a tournament

Anyways good luck in the future if you still continue to fight him,
Now back to lurking other threads to prove Shadowblade is useful

shadowblade is one of the few models i never consider taking in a game. for the same price, you can afford 2 assassins kitted out reasonably well and they have the same number of attacks , ws 9 bs 9 initivative and leadership 10. sure, shadowblade has those magic items, but for monster hunting you want an assassin with the venom sword, whoch again works perfectly against elves. you need to roll 2d6 under your toughness or lose all remaining wounds. good luck getting 3s.

One name should be here...... Caradryn. You just challenge shadowblade and watch Lil C die then smite shadowblade.

tmarichards wrote:This is an absolute non issue. You deploy your unit 5+ models wide, with Teclis second on the left and the champion furthest on the right. Shadowblade reveals himself, the champion challenges and Shadowblade has to move across to be in base contact in him, which means he cannot be in base contact with Teclis and so cannot kill him.

This is why Shadowblade is pointless.

Why did this post get ignored? Is it accurate?

^ Shadowblade charges so gets to declare a challenge first thus the champ moves to him.... so it is accurate and not accurate at the same time

edit: Ninja'd

Alright so if Shadowblade pops up and sits himself next to Teclis and plans to kill him with regular attacks (no challenge, just assigning attacks to Teclis through base to base contact) then the defending player could declare a challenge with his champ and Shadowblade would have to move over to meet the challenge, right?

But if Shadowblade pops up next to Teclis and declares a challenge, then the unit champ has to go and meet Shadowblade beside Teclis, and thus Shadowblade can still take out Teclis on the next turn.

Is that right?

basically yes.


Now you could get around this if another unit is fighting alongside shadowblade and that units champ issues a challange. then hopefully the elf champion accepts, they slog at each other while Shadowblade noms Teclis.

of course the Elf player could just refuse and then you are forced to send teclis to the rear.

Grey Templar wrote:basically yes.


Now you could get around this if another unit is fighting alongside shadowblade and that units champ issues a challange. then hopefully the elf champion accepts, they slog at each other while Shadowblade noms Teclis.

of course the Elf player could just refuse and then you are forced to send teclis to the rear.

Unless I'm missing something, i thought you could send the Champion to the rear, just like any character which had refused a challenge.

Nope the Champion always has to be in the front