Nidzilla - viable?

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**Ostrakon**

Hey there,

I'm absolutely in love with the MC tyranid models. In fact, pretty much everything in their range that sits on something larger than a 25mm base.

I'd love to try and field a force that's mostly stuff like Trygons and Carnifexes led by the Swarmlord. Preferably I'd like to go with just Warriors for troops, but that isn't strictly necessary. Raveners would be cool as well, since I love the model, but I heard they were pretty lackluster.

In this case, however, how do I deal with vehicles? It seems like my best option would be to drop some Zoanthropes into a pod and drop within range. I'm worried about MLs and MMs wiping out my T4 multiwound guys so quickly, but I'm hoping I'd have so many fatties on the board that it would be difficult to focus on one or the other.

Another question: How many extra attacks do I get for a model that has 2 sets of scything talons (or any extra set of weapons for that matter)? Is that +3 attacks for the extra CC weapons, or does each set count as one weapon. If I have a hive tyrant, with a bonesword, a lash whip, and a set of talons, do I get an extra N attacks that ignore armor or whatever?

**DarthSpader**

generally TMC end up costing quite a bit, unless especially for the bigger ones. trygons/ trygon primes, fexes, tyrants etc all end up at 200-300 points. so your going to be out numbered rather heavily. the second thing to consider, is that unless you go with a tyrannofex, your MC anti tank is pretty minimal. zoans work ok but in the 3 games ive played they tend to fail... psychic test, followed by BS, followed by dmg, followed by result... too much testing. plus short range makes them hard to get in range and keep alive. in my local meta zoans have a nasty stigma and are often primary targets as soon as they arrive. otherwise your looking at CC for busting tanks, and since tyrants are really the only one with wings (or the harpy at str 5 though) your looking at avg str 6 + 2d6 averaging 13-14 on the armor pen roll (decent when considering you hit rear armour) the problem is actually catching the tank before getting shot down.

i would suggest a mix. a good amount of scary MC, screened by a good amount of cheap numerous gaunts. harpys and devil gaunts work pretty well. (plus gaunts can beneft from tervigon, wich spawns more gaunts)

as for the scytal. i "think" each set provides +1 attack. so 2 sets is +2A with rerolls on hits. although dont quote me. im still pretty new to nids rules.

hope that helps...its just what ive noticed in a few games, and what seems to be the general meta here on dakka. apply whatever salt metaphors you wish. for convience i have a truck service that can handle deleveries of said.

**speedo**

Trygons, tervigons and hive guard are very competitive units and definitely viable. The Swarmlord with 3 lash whip tyrant guards is just about the deadliest deathstar ever and clock in at about the same price as 5 TH/SS terminators in a land raider. As for warriors, they generally don't do too well, you'd be much better off with tervigons as troops. Unfortunately, the recent GK codex automatically wins against Tyranids, so be prepared for that

Ostrakon wrote:Another question: How many extra attacks do I get for a model that has 2 sets of scything talons (or any extra set of weapons for that matter)? Is that +3 attacks for the extra CC weapons, or does each set count as one weapon. If I have a hive tyrant, with a bonesword, a lash whip, and a set of talons, do I get an extra N attacks that ignore armor or whatever?

I don't think Tyranids gain an extra attack for an additional CCW. It's all worked out in their profile IIRC

**Razerous**

As long as you consider multi-wound T6 models to be "Nidzilla" then your are sorted.

You do not get any extra attacks for any Tyranid biomorphs. It says so in the codex. A single set of sytals allows a player to re-roll 1's in CC whilst a pair allows you a re-roll missed attacks regardless of dice roll.

Do not use Zoanthropes, use hive guard. For things that Zoanthropes kill especially well (AV14 where hive guard fall down) use Trygons or other TMC. Even against a cruising speed LR, the 7 attacks that re-roll to hit will do damage.

Nidzilla may not be the most competitive but it can work. This is the case up until you choose Tyranid Warriors. There is simply too much str8+ weapons out there, because anti-vehicle weaponry is so abundant as vehicles are so abundant in 5th edition. So for true nidzilla, use tervigon's as troop choices, with minimal sized gant screens, producing more gants as needed.

In terms of HQ (as we have covered troops now) either use a tyrant as a force-multiple or warrior primes as beat-sticks. Twin bonesword wielding primes who join some gants/hive guard/venomthrope will literally mince through infantry & terrorise multi wound models. A third choice is to field another Tervigon although you shouldn't pick a HQ Tervigon unless you have 3 already or really want some/all of your troop slots for something else.

A Swarmlord supports a horde based army, really with lots of Genestealers. And is very expensive and a crazy bullet magnet, and relatively slow. (Edit: But I agree with the crazy-ass deathstar unit comment from Speedo!)

**odorofdeath**

I plan on utilizing a brood of Venomthropes for giving cover to the big lugs, with some Ravener backup, for what it's worth. Venoms just seem too cool.

**N.I.B.**

Ostrakon wrote:Nidzilla - viable?

Not below 2500 points, no. At 2500 points, I think this could cause a bit of trouble for many armies:

HQ
Tervigon - Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines, Scything Talons
Tervigon - Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines

Elite
3 Hive Guards
3 Hive Guards
3 Hive Guards

Troop
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Tervigon - Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Cluster Spines
Tervigon - Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Cluster Spines
Tervigon - Catalyst, Cluster Spines

Heavy Support
3 Carnifexes, Scything Talons (x2)
3 Carnifexes, Scything Talons (x2)

11 Monsterous Creatures
72 T6 wounds
2500 points

**ruminator**

Sorry, that list doesn't work. Large MCs only work if they are quick and have ranged attack. 6 fexes with no CC option - no one is going to let anything of any worth get into CC with them. TL devourers, spores or not at all.

If you want CC MCs then trygons rather than fexes are the way to go. Fleet can often mean they get into CC a turn earlier and so are out in the open for less time.

Troop tervigons should then have toxin as well.

The 2 HQ tervigons not necessary. Get a tyrant and give him TL devourers as well. Tyrant guard then have the lash whip. Get a prime for the second HQ choice, he has a lot of utility.

**odorofdeath**

Trygons, mayhaps?

**rigeld2**

I'm kind of partial to this at 2500.

Spoiler:

I know, screamer-killers are worthless says you... I kinda like em. Tervigon in troops just to get a solid scoring unit.

**KingCracker**

Agreed, CC carnifex SUCK. Why? Because they cant get close enough. My wife seems to prefer them being shooting platforms. And agree, shes used the dual devourer carnifex in a spod and its impressive. Infact she uses 20 devourer gaunts in spods, and those are just deadly. They dont normally last very long, but they come in, pulverize a unit, and instantly become a priority, so rather then attacking the bigger scarier bugs, you shoot them to death, because 1 volley is bad enough, letting 2 rounds of shooting go is just asking for it

**odorofdeath**

Yeah, I plan on running a couple Dakkafexes... they seem remarkably inept at combat, for such a high price.

I'm loving the Venomthropes, Rigeld

**Hornifex**

If you want a tyrant thats hard to kill, give one armoured shell + regeneration and laugh as the enemy has a tantrum over 2+ saves.

**KingCracker**

Really any tyrant build with armored shell is a bitch to take down. Regeneration is definitely on a person to person basis. Its kindda pricey for a slim chance to get wounds back. My wife has used it, and other times not, and I personally, havnt really seen one out weigh the other. Though if you get lucky during a game, bringing back wounds sucks big time. Her personal best was she took back 3 wounds my rokkit buggies gave her, then she smashed them into bits. Talk about suck!

But yea, as far as my opinion goes, the Carnifex is a shooter unit now. Granted some of its CC upgrades sound good on paper, but in practice they just dont really perform. But, make their focus being ranged weapons, and they can really kick some heads in.

**Deadshot**

Nidziolla is no longer viabl. Full stop. Too many Str 8, AP 3 Missile Launchers and Lascannons make an appearance in the Mech Heavy World of 5th ed. You run into any Guard or DE or Tau list with Nidzilla, 9/10 you will lose. Carnies and Trygons get womped by ML, Warriors, Raveners and Shrikes get vapourised by Dark Light and Battle Cannons, and Plasam sorts out Tg for a nice, close Railgun.

Hordes are not your cup of tea, so play a mixed list. Large groups of gants, supported by Tervigons for more, a Swarmlord or Tyrant, and a bunch of Carnies and Trygons. Harpies would be better in FA.

**Ostrakon**

So are Termagants generally preferred to Hormagaunts for troops choices, even if I don't intend to take a bunch of Tervigons?

**Deadshot**

Termagants and Hormagaunts have very similar combat abilty, and almost identical with Toxin Sacs. The main thing is that Termagaunts can be of use in the shooting phase. For cheaper.

**SBG**

I have had luck with this type of list...

-Tyrannofexes (2x) (Acid Spray, Shreddershard, plus the large blast)
-Hive Guard (One or two broods)
-2 Primes (Bonesword/LW, regen, adrenal), I run them attached to the Tyrannofexes so as to take advantage of the 'majority' rule for rolling for T6

-One Zoanthrope if needed for Synapse (unreliable for tank killing, but possible.)
-Tervigons (troops of course!)
-Termagants
-Possibly Venomthropes, though I have not used them much, I am sure the 5+ could be handy against Tau/Guard etc.

**Ostrakon**

Deadshot wrote:Termagants and Hormagaunts have very similar combat abilty, and almost identical with Toxin Sacs. The main thing is that Termagaunts can be of use in the shooting phase. For cheaper.

And if I'm taking like 3 Tervigons...

You know, the more I think about it the more appealing a Tervigon list is, especially supported by other fatties. Seems pretty cool. What's considered an optimal brood side for termagants?

Are dakkafexes any good? What are you supposed to equip them with?

Unfortunately I'm going to have to wait for a model, because I am an extremely poor modeler.

**rigeld2**

Ostrakon wrote:
Deadshot wrote:Termagants and Hormagaunts have very similar combat abilty, and almost identical with Toxin Sacs. The main thing is that Termagaunts can be of use in the shooting phase. For cheaper.

And if I'm taking like 3 Tervigons...

You know, the more I think about it the more appealing a Tervigon list is, especially supported by other fatties. Seems pretty cool. What's considered an optimal brood side for termagants?

Are dakkafexes any good? What are you supposed to equip them with?

Unfortunately I'm going to have to wait for a model, because I am an extremely poor modeler.

Something like this is what I would take at 1500 for a Tervigon/Dakkafex list.

Spoiler:

I hate Tervigons though.

**Razerous**

A trygon is faster, tougher, more deadly and generally scarier than a carifex. Unless you wanted/needed to double up on the heavy support slots, I'd go for a trygon every time.

I'd also advise, if you were trying to expand past 1500pts into 2000pts, look at fielding harpys with TL-venon cannons. Yes they won't destroy vehicles but neither will brainleech worms - but they will have an easier time of things (Edit: Buut they are not as reliable to actually get you those damage rolls) & threaten bigger targets; you only need to shake/stun/immobilise a vehicle to cripple it (for a turn). It also provides range which is the one thing nids lack & it slots into the little-used FA slot.

Try;
2x Twin Bonesword Primes

2x Tervigons, AS, TS, Catalyst

4x Hive Guard

3x Tyrgons, Adrenals.

@ 1850, sub out two trygons & add two dakkafexes (screw Harpies, I've changed my mind - Fexes are str9 on the charge!) and a 3rd Troop Tervigon - with a little wiggling.

*Run @ enemy*.

**slice'n'dice**

Dakka fexes can have their place over Trygons if you team them up with a Prime. The main difference being that they gain from cover saves and wound allocation tricks for a heftier price tag.

Trygon Prime v Carni (dual devourers) attached with Prime (LW/BS)

240 vs 285 (45 more points)

12 shots @ Str 5 vs 12 linked shots @ Str 6
6 wounds vs 3 and 4
Reroll hits in CC vs LW/BS effects
6(7) str 6 MC attacks vs 4(5) str 9 MC and 4(5) str 5 attacks (bracketed numbers for on the charge)
Fleet vs cover from intervening units.
1 slot vs 2 slots

I only compare the Trygon Prime as it's a more direct comparison, but you can see how each 'unit' is different in its own way, and I'm sure you can see how the Trygon doesn't 'beat' the Fex every time when thought of this way.

Really just my opinion though

**Billinator**

Deadshot wrote:Nidziolla is no longer viabl. Full stop. Too many Str 8, AP 3 Missile Launchers and Lascannons make an appearance in the Mech Heavy World of 5th ed. You run into any Guard or DE or Tau list with Nidzilla, 9/10 you will lose. Carnies and Trygons get womped by ML, Warriors, Raveners and Shrikes get vapourised by Dark Light and Battle Cannons, and Plasam sorts out Tg for a nice, close Railgun.

Hordes are not your cup of tea, so play a mixed list. Large groups of gants, supported by Tervigons for more, a Swarmlord or Tyrant, and a bunch of Carnies and Trygons. Harpies would be better in FA.

I'm with this guy. MC's doesn't last - not alone at least. If you build your list too much around MC's, you're gonna get hammered.
- You need Hive Guards for anti-transport, if you don't want your lasting MC's only to catch the backlight of your enemies Heavy teams in transports. (I'd never leave home without a minimum of 4 - perfeerably 6!)

You'd also want smaller units for several reasons:
- To screen direct paths to your MCs.
- To reach the enemy lines faster.
- To give for a good number of dice against many Deathstar units.
- To provide cover for your medium based models and block LoS to these and your MCs (Gargs are especially good!)

**Deadshot**

Also, always run Fexes in pairs, so one cann hide behind a building and take cover saves for the brood.

**KingCracker**

Deadshot wrote:Also, always run Fexes in pairs, so one cann hide behind a building and take cover saves for the brood.

This is great advice. Also, running them in pairs just makes them more survivable anyway, it takes more wounds to actually kill one off for starters.

**Deadshot**

Bad Idea. killing off 1 means you lose firepower and attacks in CC. Alos, you can't because they must lose equal number of wounds. you have to wound all modelsm in a group of identical models before you can double up. And because Fexes must have the same options, they must follow that.

**KingCracker**

Must have same options?! Aww how much more can they hoe the nids? Ive gotta go read the codex now just to see that for myself

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh my god, it does say that. Well WTF to that one ya?

**Deadshot**

Yerah its stupid, but also fluffy. The Tyranids don't preparte, they adapt. They don't send in a Trio of Carnifexes to take out a Fortress, but leave the claws off one so it can shoot anyone who is a threat. they give the 3 Fexes Claws to rip it apart, and then say "Come on then! Who wants some?! Who wants to get in the path of not one, not 2, but 3 Carnifexes charging at top speed?!"

Giving a Dakkafex to siege fexes brood would hamper the effectiveness of the siege unit. The Tyranid Codes may be underpowered and strange, but at least it keeps to the fluff.

**Pedrowan**

SBG wrote:I have had luck with this type of list...
...
-2 Primes (Bonesword/LW, regen, adrenal), I run them attached to the Tyrannofexes so as to take advantage of the 'majority' rule for rolling for T6
...

You can't attach them to a Tyrannofex as it is a unit that can only ever have 1 model. The only reason you get away with attaching them to Carnifexes is because you can have 1-3 Carnies in a unit.

**Deadshot**

But you still can't attach them to MC units, AFAIK.

**Niiai**

You can attach Primes to the regular fexes. That is good.

Also, in bigger games, grabbing gargoyles usualy gives you MC's cover saves. It is cheap as well.

I am wondering, everybody keep talking about how good the dakkafex or just a pure carnifex is. Have anybody tryed any of it's bigger guns?

That goes for both the hive tyrant and the carnifex.