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I have an Issue with Forge World Delivery Prices, this will be a long detailed post so bear with me. I am interested in other peoples opinions on this. 1st off, a clear declaration of Forge Worlds product Delivery costs and pricing (Taken directly from their Website).

PRICE OF GOODS

All our prices are displayed with our products throughout the website.

The price of our goods is exactly the same as the recommended retail price and our mail order service.

All prices are in UK pounds (GBP £), and are inclusive of VAT.

We will charge your credit card in UK pounds (GBP £).

If you live outside the UK we recommend you check with your credit card company regarding any charges you may incur for currency conversion.

We will display the full price of your order (including shipping and handling) BEFORE you submit your order to us.

SHIPPING AND HANDLING

Forge World charge an additional 12% of the order value for shipping and handling to the UK or 15% to anywhere in the World. We can also offer an Express Delivery option with a shipping time of 2-5 working days from dispatch to anywhere in the world. If you are interested in taking advantage of this service please tell us when you place your order, or choose the option from our online store. Forge World Express Delivery is £12 within the UK or £15 to anywhere in the World in addition to your normal shipping costs for each order independent of the number of products ordered.

Orders of £250.00 or more have no shipping charges and are shipped using UPS Express Delivery.

The total cost of your order is previewed for you before you commit to your purchase.

UPS shipping : Orders shipped via UPS delivery cannot be sent to a PO, APO or BFPO addresses. If you have any queries please contact us directly

Okay, my issue with this is the 12% figure. Taking this to extremes lets take an Order worth £240 e.g Not entitled to Free postage due it being sub £250.

12% of £240 = £28.80 Postage and packaging.

UK POST OFFICE COSTS (ROYAL MAIL)

Our Special Delivery™ Next Day service starts at just £5.45 and you can send items up to 10kg. See our detailed price list below.

Use Special Delivery™ and get up to £500 automatic compensation cover for loss or damage. If your item is more valuable, you can get extra cover up to £2,500 for a small additional fee.
Price list

http://www.postoffice.co.uk/letters-parcels/sending-uk-letters-parcels/special-delivery/special-delivery-next-day-prices

*Franking accounts are held usually by businesses allowing them to stamp their own postage items with their account number and so are charged directly at the depot. This is useful for companies with large volumes of mail/ that offer postal services hence the slight discount. It is not available to the public, unless they have specific need (e.g. an Ebay Seller who shifts a large volume!).

So far so good.

Working this calculation through.

1.5kg Package from FW worth £240 pounds. Now I would suggest that FW has a franking account but for simplicity I will use the public mail system of stamps.

so it will be 2Kg at £9.05 (for next day delivery not bad, and it's insured upto £500 great so the item is covered).

I have no idea how much packaging costs are but lets say (lets be generous) they need a £5 for a box and some packaging , okay.

Now they need someone in the warehouse, to grab the items and box the package, add the label and complete the order. Let's say that they are on UK minimum wage £6.10 ph. Right lets say he is slow and new (I am being generous) it takes 45 mins so lets call that £5 as well. Thus far that's £10 onto of the £9.05 cost of delivery.

Okay now the costs of miscellaneous bits, Warehouse, lighting, heating etc, security, paying for site, insurance. Okay lets call that a further £5.... but Hold on, isn't that a overhead? Shouldn't that be covered in the Product cost + a healthy profit margin (10% - 30% Profit margin).

So hold on, my order should cost (conservatively) £19.05, lets call it £20. The Charge is £28.80, thats a further £8.80 over my fairly liberal costings.

OKAY, it's expensive. How can I reduce my costs....

Order through a third party like Wayland Games......No they don't do trade accounts.

Right well certain companies in the UK, allow you to order from their Online store Like NEXT or TESCO. You pay online and it is delivered to your local Retail Store, and you can go in and pick it up bingo, no postage, a nice way to save some money of postage and another way of getting people in to your store.

Great, well GW & FW are joined at the hip. They share the same facilities and factory space, GW share IP with FW and they advertise their items in WD and on their website. Surely they could share the massive (& expensive retail operation GW runs). I pop in and low and behold, no. They don't allow FW products to be delivered to GW Retail arm, saving us at the sharp end from the cost of Shipping....

I am not happy with this and I am wondering whether FW are using their P&P to prop up their Overheads e.g. they make a profit on P&P and therefore to keep the costs of products looking cheaper and more attractive, they don't allow third parties because they are making a significant profit margin on the P&P.

The product cost, should include all overheads + a Profit margin. If they are using P&P to make an even greater margin this is a shameless profiteering. It would explain the why they don't allow anyone else to sell their products? Or allow any other method of delivery other than direct sale from the factory. I might have got this completely wrong, but I am fairly convinced they are protecting themselves in a closed market because their business model will not work in an Open market.

As ever your thoughts Dakka?

I'm not sure that it should come as a surprise that FW charge extortionate shipping prices given the amount of money they charge for their products in the first place. Overpriced miniatures and overpriced shipping charges. More reason to not buy from FW frankly.

I have no problem with them making money and it is highly specialised customer base so the cost will always be higher than a mass market product. I hate profiteering off the back of delivery of products, I have paid for the product, I am merely seeking an economical, safe and secure delivery with a degree of insurance.

To take advantage of that and give us no alternative methods is pretty reprehensible.

The other issue, is why FW cannot add their items, into the weekly deliveries to the GW retail stores, at even a moderate cost to ship. e.g. £5 to ship to your local GW store. It is a pretty shabby way to treat their customer base, without customers they go bust. With the economic downturn, they need to fight for customers and this is one of many ways they could do this!

The percentage charge is on Value rather than weight, so it's actually pretty nuts.

Weight I can understand, as that's how the cost of shipping is scaled by those who do the shipping, i.e Royal Mail.

Now for Forgeworld cost doesn't always equal weight, certainly with the smaller kits.
It's a bit of a con, but if you don't like it, it's tough really.

I had the same issue as you. Please read this post as FW's stupid P&P costs (and their claims) were discussed in detail here....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275790.page

TheSecretSquig wrote:I had the same issue as you. Please read this post as FW's stupid P&P costs (and their claims) were discussed in detail here....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275790.page

Did you ever get any resolution to the issue following your meeting with FW or at the shareholder's meeting?

mwnciboo wrote:
The other issue, is why FW cannot add their items, into the weekly deliveries to the GW retail stores, at even a moderate cost to ship.

Probably because shipment of stock isn't done from the same warehouse?

Exactly! I don't mind paying the prices of the already expensive FW models, but the shipping is what really puts me off.

Thing is, GW staff get their FW orders shipped to store for free, so I don't understand why there isn't a free ship to store option on FW goods.

As their shipping system currently stands, I'd suggest waiting for Games Day (or other events that include FW), and purchasing anything you need on an annual basis where you don't have to pay shipping.

Kanluwen wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:
The other issue, is why FW cannot add their items, into the weekly deliveries to the GW retail stores, at even a moderate cost to ship.

Probably because shipment of stock isn't done from the same warehouse?

Having been to GW HQ, the FW Office and Warehouse is in the same location as GW Mail Order service. They are in the same building.

Your example of £28,- shipping for a £240,- order, even if hypothetical, is pretty moot. Any thinking customer would just grab an additional £10,- item and get the free shipping. Which is of course what FW wants.
It's just another pretty standard internet store trick, and, while the £240,- example is of course a no-brainer, this works for much smaller orders as well.
example: Customer has a £200,- order and sees he has to pay £24,- shipping and is £50,- away from free shipping. He then purchases another £50,- item following the logic that, becauses he has free shipping now, that item only cost £26,-, which is a steal! Customer happy because he 'beat the system'. FW happy because they made £50,- they wouldn't have made without this system.

You can say it's unethical to try to make money off of shipping, but this way works, so who can blame them.

Another example. Guess you order totals at 249.99£, will you pay 30£ postage or rather add something (like a weathering powder for 2.95£) to get free postage? With 240£ postage costs can't be much over 10£ because you can just add Rhino doors and face plate for 10.50£, get free postage and can sell the doors.

So your rant is unjustified. Of course the real postage costs for each order are not exactly 12% (or 15% international), this is a mixed calculation on an average business level. And frankly, nobody in my town has payed postage for a long time, as we always wait combine our orders until we are above 250£.

You got to pay to play is the saying...

I know in the computer business we would charge shipping AND HANDLING...

It costs money to have to the packaging guys be out in shipping/warehouse. They don't work for free.. and the Postage and cost of packing materials cost even more..

They set the charges at 250 , since I'm assuming they are more than breaking even on the total costs at that point.

if you are going to complain about the shipping, I'm complaining about the VAT... Why do I have to pay VAT living in the USA, same goes for Some one in Canada or Australia...

Replacements costs could be factored in to the postage-from-value model. For example, if they figure the box gets broken/smashed en route, and FW usually sends replacement bits super fast (they used to at least) then MAYBE thats why it is baed on value? more than likley though, its just because they can get away with it

I know for Flames of War orders and scenery (JR, Kerr and King, etc), our group gathers up a bunch of small orders to benefit from free shipping deals. I havent bought anything from GW since the Trygon and new Tyranid Codex came out. I'd say, where possible, group up to save on shipping costs. Especially those living on Mars, IE Japan and Australia, where they are getting massacred on shipping.

I do all my FW ordering in WHW. Much much cheaper that way; I can get it shipped to home for free if it's not in stock (or is subpar). I could almost, but not quite make a business of circumventing their shipping...

Not sure what to say... it is a luxury product sold by a single retailer... If you want the product, you pay the price.

You do have options:
1. Save up for bulk buys for free shipping.
2. Buy with friends to place a single order for free shipping
3. Go to your local GW store, many of which will do bulk buys for free shipping.
4. Go to events where FW will be on-site selling things.
5. Buy off ebay and try to get a good deal second-hand where some other schmo paid the shipping.


If it bothers you that much about ethics and blah blah blah... the answer is to withold money until it changes. But standing up for your believe often means going without and todays society is 'I want this thing, but I want to send a message I am dissatisfied, but in a way where I still get what I want.'

I love how ever few months this topic comes up.

First off, unless you are in the Financial meets for GW or Forgeworld, you are only guessing as to the cost of shipping. Did it ever occur to you that the people paying for Freight are coving the cost of "Free Shipping" the people spending over 250 are getting?

You have 3 options.

1. Deal with it and pay the overpriced shipping (Companies have every right to charge what they want for shipping)

2. Don't pay and don't order from Forge World.

3. Wait to order only when you are spending over 250, or pool your money with others so your total order is over 250.

Here is my biggest gripe (which, sadly, doesn't stop my from buying):

All prices are in UK pounds (GBP £), and are inclusive of VAT.


So, being as I'm ordering from the US, paying in GBP, and then paying my bank for conversion fees, etc., how is it that I am not eligible for a VAT refund?

Other companies (ie Warlord Games) deduct the VAT from your order at checkout if you are ordering from outside the UK. How does FW get away with it again?

It seems not to be so uncommon in Britain to have the percentage thing. Perry miniatures for example do it as well as some others. As others have said, we through together so we have been fine so far.

While I'd love to get my FW at a more reasonable shipping rate, the fact of the matter is you're buying a niche piece in an already niche market. You don't need anything from FW to play GW games so it pretty much comes down to take it or leave it... I get where you're coming from, BUT there are ways around it, so I'm happy to make joint orders to ensure free expedited delivery.

The really funny thing is they charge the US 15% shipping when they get to keep the VAT for themselves as VAT is not paid to the UK government on non-EU sales. Cheeky sods.

So not only do they make extra profit by keeping the VAT but they have the bare faced cheek to charge an extra 3%.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cruentus wrote:Here is my biggest gripe (which, sadly, doesn't stop my from buying):

All prices are in UK pounds (GBP £), and are inclusive of VAT.


So, being as I'm ordering from the US, paying in GBP, and then paying my bank for conversion fees, etc., how is it that I am not eligible for a VAT refund?

Other companies (ie Warlord Games) deduct the VAT from your order at checkout if you are ordering from outside the UK. How does FW get away with it again?

They get away with it because the invoice they use for non-EU customers is a non-VAT invoice so that even though the same price is used it doesn't strictly include VAT so there is nothing for you to claim.

you can go to GW lenton and pic it up for free, you have to order the product you want when you get there and wait about 2 hours, not too bad if you take a friend and models with you....However they don't always bring the right stuff up, example:

me and my friend went and i ordered the Imperial thunderbolt fighter.

i went to the loo for a while so the shop geek came over to my friend who accepted it and paid for it.

BUT

it turned out the shop geek said they had no thunderbolts left only the lightening fighter, which my friend accepted, when i told the geek it was a mistake and i wanted my money back he told me i couldn't do that.

instead of arguing then and there i wrote multpile complaint letters to gw, all of which were ignored.

I sold the plane on ebay for a profit. (up yours gw)

ordering from Lenton is also only usefull if you live near there, it seems the majority of people on this forum don't!

My issue is really that there are no alternatives to paying an extortionate rate. I don't like the idea that if you pay more you get free postage, so what if i only want £120 of products?

Your arguments thus far are;-

1. get over yourself pay it
2. Club together and buy as group

My answer is no, to both points. I have a good job and a damn good credit rating, why would I risk that putting a big order on my Credit Card? Why should i act like a banker with my friends, and why would i expect my friends to do so for me? Money and debts within friendship groups should be avoided, it is a dangerous business if you wish to remain friends. I don't order things on ebay, and then say crap, if I get 3 friends to buy in i'll get free postage, the real world doesn't operate like that. I take responsibility for myself and my debts, I do not club together with others because at my local club I have seen fall outs about damaged goods, and who is responsible (one broken Contemptor, one intact Contemptor) they both fought for the intact one, and the third member who paid for the order had to return it because it was on his card. He then gave the intact one to one man, and the other had to wait, my god the fall out was stupid. Arse Ache I can do without, if i want arse ache I go see the mother in law.

On the subject of overheads, the company should be factoring in Postage because thats the only way to buy the stuff. So it's quantifiable, you can average it out and it can be taken into account as a overhead (just like every other business that offers Free delivery etc). The idea of travelling to Games day to buy my FW is frankly nonsense and more bloody expensive.

If I am paying for high end goods i expect more for my money. My new Samsung TV was £300, free delivery. My £50 order on firestorm Games, free delivery. MY new washing machine £450, including free delivery and installation. My Sky Plus, £40 a month, free box and installation.

I cannot accept that FW is not part of GW, it bloody well is, it might be a franchise, it might be a daughter operation, it might be a third party developer.. It is on the same site, in the same factory using GW IP and advertising on GW material. For FW to refuse to use GW Retail arm is ridiculous. They are about as seperate as Siamese Twins. That is the real issue, WTF can they not sell through the retail arm of GW? Its protectionism...

mwnciboo wrote:My issue is really that there are no alternatives to paying an extortionate rate. I don't like the idea that if you pay more you get free postage, so what if i only want £120 of products?

Paying £14,40 postage for £120 merchandise is much better than what I usually get from international sellers (usually starting at £25). If you absolutely need £4 less postage, maybe your job is not that good at all
And my friends always manage to make combined orders without a hassle.

Keep in mind that in USD every pound is about $1.5 so we're looking at 50% more per dollar of shipping.

So your £28.8 comes out to over $45 US which is a hell of a lot for shipping anything short of a computer case.

Add to that the extra 3% on shipping AND the VAT that we still have to pay, and us Americans have it much harder off than anyone in the UK.

Americans can do one complaining about shipping rates, been ripped off so many times importing records from there.

Shipping is a moot point, its always more than what you're paying because they just balance it out from where they do lose out on other orders, I'm sorry but if you're paying £100 you're paying a little bit towards Mr. £250+'s shipping costs, its the way the world works, you don't HAVE to buy it.

Order a ticket to an event sometimes, then complain about how you're getting royally buttdrilled over charges!

The figures are overpriced so i guess they feel they can just charge what they want for shipping and handling too.

mwnciboo wrote:My issue is really that there are no alternatives to paying an extortionate rate. I don't like the idea that if you pay more you get free postage, so what if i only want £120 of products?

Your arguments thus far are;-

1. get over yourself pay it
2. Club together and buy as group

My answer is no, to both points. I have a good job and a damn good credit rating, why would I risk that putting a big order on my Credit Card? Why should i act like a banker with my friends, and why would i expect my friends to do so for me? Money and debts within friendship groups should be avoided, it is a dangerous business if you wish to remain friends. I don't order things on ebay, and then say crap, if I get 3 friends to buy in i'll get free postage, the real world doesn't operate like that. I take responsibility for myself and my debts, I do not club together with others because at my local club I have seen fall outs about damaged goods, and who is responsible (one broken Contemptor, one intact Contemptor) they both fought for the intact one, and the third member who paid for the order had to return it because it was on his card. He then gave the intact one to one man, and the other had to wait, my god the fall out was stupid. Arse Ache I can do without, if i want arse ache I go see the mother in law.

On the subject of overheads, the company should be factoring in Postage because thats the only way to buy the stuff. So it's quantifiable, you can average it out and it can be taken into account as a overhead (just like every other business that offers Free delivery etc). The idea of travelling to Games day to buy my FW is frankly nonsense and more bloody expensive.

If I am paying for high end goods i expect more for my money. My new Samsung TV was £300, free delivery. My £50 order on firestorm Games, free delivery. MY new washing machine £450, including free delivery and installation. My Sky Plus, £40 a month, free box and installation.

I cannot accept that FW is not part of GW, it bloody well is, it might be a franchise, it might be a daughter operation, it might be a third party developer.. It is on the same site, in the same factory using GW IP and advertising on GW material. For FW to refuse to use GW Retail arm is ridiculous. They are about as seperate as Siamese Twins. That is the real issue, WTF can they not sell through the retail arm of GW? Its protectionism...

Are you smoking crack?

I mean really. Risking your credit because you made a larger purchase??? You just save your money until you have enough for a larger order. No one said go and borrow money to get a larger order. As for friends, sounds like your friends are a bunch of spoiled children. Comparing PLANNING a forge World order and buying from ebay, and then after the fact getting friends to buy something is so different I don't think I really need to address it.

FW is a subsidiary of GW. That means the profits from FW roll up to GW. It does not mean they are the same company. In fact a lot of subsidiary companies are run completely separate and with different marketing strategies.

fullheadofhair wrote:The really funny thing is they charge the US 15% shipping when they get to keep the VAT for themselves as VAT is not paid to the UK government on non-EU sales. Cheeky sods.

So not only do they make extra profit by keeping the VAT but they have the bare faced cheek to charge an extra 3%.

That's always been my biggest gripe about FW.

jbunny wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:My issue is really that there are no alternatives to paying an extortionate rate. I don't like the idea that if you pay more you get free postage, so what if i only want £120 of products?

Your arguments thus far are;-

1. get over yourself pay it
2. Club together and buy as group

My answer is no, to both points. I have a good job and a damn good credit rating, why would I risk that putting a big order on my Credit Card? Why should i act like a banker with my friends, and why would i expect my friends to do so for me? Money and debts within friendship groups should be avoided, it is a dangerous business if you wish to remain friends. I don't order things on ebay, and then say crap, if I get 3 friends to buy in i'll get free postage, the real world doesn't operate like that. I take responsibility for myself and my debts, I do not club together with others because at my local club I have seen fall outs about damaged goods, and who is responsible (one broken Contemptor, one intact Contemptor) they both fought for the intact one, and the third member who paid for the order had to return it because it was on his card. He then gave the intact one to one man, and the other had to wait, my god the fall out was stupid. Arse Ache I can do without, if i want arse ache I go see the mother in law.

On the subject of overheads, the company should be factoring in Postage because thats the only way to buy the stuff. So it's quantifiable, you can average it out and it can be taken into account as a overhead (just like every other business that offers Free delivery etc). The idea of travelling to Games day to buy my FW is frankly nonsense and more bloody expensive.

If I am paying for high end goods i expect more for my money. My new Samsung TV was £300, free delivery. My £50 order on firestorm Games, free delivery. MY new washing machine £450, including free delivery and installation. My Sky Plus, £40 a month, free box and installation.

I cannot accept that FW is not part of GW, it bloody well is, it might be a franchise, it might be a daughter operation, it might be a third party developer.. It is on the same site, in the same factory using GW IP and advertising on GW material. For FW to refuse to use GW Retail arm is ridiculous. They are about as seperate as Siamese Twins. That is the real issue, WTF can they not sell through the retail arm of GW? Its protectionism...

Are you smoking crack?

I mean really. Risking your credit because you made a larger purchase??? You just save your money until you have enough for a larger order. No one said go and borrow money to get a larger order. As for friends, sounds like your friends are a bunch of spoiled children. Comparing PLANNING a forge World order and buying from ebay, and then after the fact getting friends to buy something is so different I don't think I really need to address it.

FW is a subsidiary of GW. That means the profits from FW roll up to GW. It does not mean they are the same company. In fact a lot of subsidiary companies are run completely separate and with different marketing strategies.

People fall out of money all the time. It is one of the number one reasons why friends fall out. I like my friends and I like them for who they are, I don't like souring relationships but I have seen many, many problems with clubbing together. For example, people not paying upfront, or promptly, you foot the bill on the credit card, oh and if they don't you end up paying the interest on their debt. This is both unfair and unjust, you never draw up a contract so it is a verbal agreement. If it goes wrong, what are you going to do? Pursue them through the courts, well if it's thousands fair enough, a hundred or so well it will cost?

Your credit rating is pretty important, the prompt servicing of debt is not only a personal mantra for me, but is also an integrity issue. You can affect your credit rating in many ways (changing bank accounts for example), non servicing and disputing of debt.

I agree with subsidary Companies are run completely seperate with different marketing strategies. But your definition of Completely Seperate is very liberal, they are on the same GW site, in the same factory. They provide free shipping to GW employees, I am happy to pay and collect, I think this is a reasonable and cheaper alternative then the current P&P.

On a Personal note, I don't like your insinuation that I am smoking crack. Consider you words more carefully.