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I just started a CSM army and I have the following models:

10 Chaos Space Marines
10 Chaos Space Marines
5 Chaos Terminators
5 Chaos Raptors
1 Chaos Terminator Lord

My original opponent was supposed to be IG, but another player has started a GK army. We haven't made lists yet and I was looking foe advice on a general way to build mine to stand up to the GK army. His current Models are:

1 Brother Captain,
5 Grey Knights Terminators
5 Grey Knights Terminators
5 Grey Knights
5 Grey Knights
1 Dreadknight

Any help or suggested lists would be really appreciated!

Vindicator and 2 units of Oblitorators hit em from a far then when they get close unload on them wiht the Vindicator.

Killadoza wrote:I just started a CSM army and I have the following models:

10 Chaos Space Marines
10 Chaos Space Marines
5 Chaos Terminators
5 Chaos Raptors
1 Chaos Terminator Lord

scythewing wrote:Vindicator and 2 units of Oblitorators hit em from a far then when they get close unload on them wiht the Vindicator.

... Did you read his post at all? Really?

Against GK your going to want to use any plasma or metlaguns your CSM have, they will help get around his armor. Watch out for him in CC- ALL his models have power weapons. A nurgle daemon weapon given to your lord would be good- d6 extra attacks, he always wounds on a 4+ with rerolls and ignores armor saves.

Are there ANY other models you have? Rhino's etc? Do you have any champs/special weapons modeled?

Thanks for the advice, i think i will be using MoN on my Lord. as for the Champions and Special weapons, i have one Champion with a power fist, and one with a power weapon. im torn on using the plasma pistol bc while CC is inevadable, i feel like 15 pts for what would probably one shot is over priced. For the squads i plan on giving them two plasma guns a piece so i can spend a couple turns taking pot shots at his GK squads to thin their numbers. i also plan on giving the Termies all combi plasma guns or combi meltas for a volley of high AP shots before CC.

On the CSM Terminators against GK, combi-plas is the way to go as the AP2 shots will go through GK like a chainfist through DE armour.

Unfortuantly, your best bet is to somehow kite the GK so he can't get in CC with you. Once the GK player is in CC, you've lost. On that point, I would use the raptors to finish off any squad that took a good number of casulities (ideally less than half strength), give them IoS so that way they can strike before the power weapons.

For your regular CSM, put them in cover somewhere and just try to bolter anything that gets too close to you. Consider this though (assuming no special weapons in either squad), at 24", 5 man GK squad = 10 bolter rounds regardless of movement, while 10 man squad of CSM = 10 shots if they didn't move. At 12", 5 GK = 10 shots, but 10 CSM = 20 shots. This means as they get closer you have more firepower and can hopefully drown them in shots (remember, against bolters, GK have the same survivablity rate as CSM). Unfortuantly, if you cant kill them beyond your first 12" volley, they will most likely charge you, which results in you in CC against PW.

One last point, his termies...

Only thing I can think of is combi plas a termi squad to death and then send the termies and lord against the other one (maybe w/ raptors if you can). Not excatly ideal but you really dont have other options.

The dreadknight... I honestly don't know how you would counter this, maybe MoS Daemon Weapon on the Lord? IK it if you wound.

Thank you both for your sound and reasonable advice. I am going to Plasma Gun Up! and just hope for the best. kitting will be funny and effective if i can pull it off. I don't believe we will face off until next week but I'll post some results and how the tactics fared when we do. thank you again.

Another option might be a small unit of Plague Marines in a Rhino with either melta guns or plasma guns. I like using plasma guns on 5 Plague Marines in a Rhino since it gives you more shot and the plague marines' FNP synergises well with if it gets hot. The 2 Marines with the plasma guns can shoot out of the fire point. This gives you a durable unit (as in "sits well on objectives) which can also pack a punch even against well armored opponents.

To OP, sorry to say but you need more models. It would be hard to be competitive with what you have against GK.

What I would do with the models you have:

1) CSMSs - split them in 4 squads of 5 and use them as Plague Marines. Give each squad 2 plasma guns. That is 8 guns right there. Put little Avery dot labels on the ones nominated to have plasma. In friendly games proxying is ok.

2) Proxy your terminators for obliterators - they are the same size and footprint.

3) Take a melta on the raptors

4) Proxy your lord as a daemon prince - same stand size. Give him the lash and use it on GK to bunch them up for the plasma cannons of the obliterators.

Tactics is pretty obvious - shoot the plasma out of him before he gets to assault you. Lash and plasma smaller bases. Melta or plasma the dreadknight (he has 5++, but hey, better than let him use the 2+)

Good luck!

Plrease note I don't know much about GKs.

I would try to convert the lord into a prince with wings. Princes are only a few points more and trust me, they are worth it. I don't know much about Dreadknights but I guess a prince is your best bet when taking one on. I do know they can ignore deamonic gifts so I would be worried about that.

I also advise you to try to keep at range when it comes to GKs. Especially if you convert plague marines (see below).

I would advise you to convert your CSMs into plagues if the guard are giving you trouble. Also they could be rather good at warding those storm bolters too.

Obliterators are your friend, as with most old rickety codices, some units hold out to the pull of time better than others. Obliterators have held out rather well.

It's a pity about chaos, such good background and minis, such am outdated codex. Grumble grumble.

Use chosen, they're the most underrated in our pathetic excuse for a codex. They can do all sorts of cool things but against gk try this, proxy a squad of five with plasma guns (yeah we can do that, chaos ftw) and outflank, they destroy terminators and will be a useful psychological tool. The dred knight is a problem. They're really op and hard to kill. Try ignoring it and running away, seriously it only moves six inches run the hell away and maybe send a cheapish squad to keep it busy while overwhelming the gay nights with firepower. Sometimes it's best to charge at them, 10 csm vs 5 termys means you get 40 attacks (10 bolt pistles + 30 attacks on charge) against 5, even with hammerhand termys only get 1-2 kills on average. Every kill you make is worth two kills for your opponent. 2+ is annoying but it can be beat by forcing them to take enough saves.

Overall I wouldn't do anything too crazy with your list, lots of power armor is usually the answer. Oblits aint a bad idea, plasma cannons can be a good gk counter

All the units you've listed are pretty useful, except the terminator lord. You can get decent use out of him deep-striking attached to the terminators, with a daemon weapon of Nurgle or unmarked with daemon weapon.

Speaking generally...
Chaos has very solid troops, and both Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are very useful and deadly HQs.
Chaos has terrible Fast Attack units.
Chaos Elites are pretty good, but because all of your units tend to be on the pricey side, you need to keep the costs down here to afford enough Troops.
You almost always want several Rhinos to get your squads where they need to go.
You almost always want to get a bunch of melta weapons into your troop squads, because antitank shooting is otherwise limited in the army.
Heavy Support is pretty much your only source of ranged antitank, and they're pretty much all good options, though our land raiders are not nearly as good as loyalist ones, so they're not very popular.

More specifically, here are links to some army list threads, where I helped some folks with their lists:

1850 Death Guard list & discussion:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330792.page#2172661

2000 mixed-powers list rebuild & discussion:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330496.page#2174192

1500 Khorne & unmarked mix with terminators:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330555.page

2000pt mixed-powers:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329707.page#2151569

1500 Khorne themed (with Lash/nurgle Princes, but Khorne prince option in discussion):
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330800.page#2170656

1500 Iron Warriors mech army with comments:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330892.page#2172356

1500 Rhino rush with Chosen:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330510.page#2166512

Necrontyr40k wrote:

4) Proxy your lord as a daemon prince - same stand size.

o_O



o___0...

Over 9000! wrote: Use chosen, they're the most underrated in our pathetic excuse for a codex. They can do all sorts of cool things but against gk try this, proxy a squad of five with plasma guns (yeah we can do that, chaos ftw) and outflank, they destroy terminators and will be a useful psychological tool.

Now I don't play grey knights, but I do know about interceptor squads and giving a dread knight a teleporter, so The first thing I would do is shunt into your squad or two of chosen, tell you this whole thing about putting all your eggs in one basket, and then charge you.

Over 9000! wrote:
The dred knight is a problem. They're really op and hard to kill. Try ignoring it and running away, seriously it only moves six inches run the hell away and maybe send a cheapish squad to keep it busy while overwhelming the gay nights with firepower. Sometimes it's best to charge at them, 10 csm vs 5 termys means you get 40 attacks (10 bolt pistles + 30 attacks on charge) against 5, even with hammerhand termys only get 1-2 kills on average. Every kill you make is worth two kills for your opponent. 2+ is annoying but it can be beat by forcing them to take enough saves.

T6 MC with a 5++? just a 5++? the 2+ helps alot against small arms, but the bad boy is just asking for 3-4 plasmaguns to take him down in one volley.

I'll just point out, on the charge the CSM statistically are going to kill 1-2 terminators themselves. The NEXT round of combat, you don't A) get to shoot (and since a bolt pistol is S4 like a marines CC attacks, your really missing out on 10 attacks that hit on 3+, not 4+!), and B) dont get your bonus attacks. You lose 20 attacks you had previously, and you probably lost a couple of mangs in the melee. Now your down to >20 attacks, whilst the enemies power weapons are still swinging.

Soften nasty CC units up before you charge!

Necrontyr40k wrote:
4) Proxy your lord as a daemon prince - same stand size.

Lolwut? I can safely assure you good sir that the Chaos Lord (PA or Termi) is not on the same base as a DP. 50mm =/= 120mm

Personally, I wouldn't let someone proxy a model as different one if they have different base sizes.

Commissar Typhus wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:
4) Proxy your lord as a daemon prince - same stand size.

Lolwut? I can safely assure you good sir that the Chaos Lord (PA or Termi) is not on the same base as a DP. 50mm =/= 120mm

Personally, I wouldn't let someone proxy a model as different one if they have different base sizes.

The ol' DP came on a 50mm (terminator sized?) base, my friend still has his on it. But it's still double the size of any of the lords (spikes not included )

5 Chosen w 5 Plasma Guns = 165
x3 = 495

5 Havocs w 4 Plasma Guns = 135
x 2 = 270

7 Plague Marines w 2 Plasma Guns = 191
x 4 = 764

1429

9 Rhinos = 315

1743

Add one Chaos Lord subtract a plague marine or 3 to outfit him.

31 plasma shots should do quite nicely.

GK thrive at 24" range though so perhaps you would be better suited to havocs with ML or AC. They should get rid of his requisite rifleman dreads.