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Okay I have seen this played both ways and I'm curious as to what way is...more right.

Breath of Chaos says, "Any models under the template take a wound with no armor save allowed on a 4+, Vehicles take a Glancing hit on a 4+." Now according to the rulebook anything with AP - or no AP gives a -1 on the damage chart effectively making breath of Chaos a -3 on the glancing chart meaning it can really do no better than a weapon destroyed, and that's on a 6+.

My question of contention comes from this: Does Breath of Chaos count as having no AP and thus giving an extra -1 on the damage chart?

I don't have my rulebook on me so I forget if only things with specifically AP - give the -1 or if it says "No AP", and if it says AP -, does Breath count as being AP - against vehicles since it doesn't have an AP?

I understand that it ignores armor saves against non-vehicle units, but against vehicles it technically doesn't have an AP.

HELP!

AP - is not the same as no AP value, other wise every attack in close combat would also be -1 on the chart.

In fact AP- can be thought as a negative penetration value for weapons that really struggle with armour.

Interesting, Iv always played it as normal -2 for glance not -3, I think mainly because breath is not stated as being AP of nothing, its just said to ignore armour saves.

Excellent point Tri, except this isn't a close combat attack this is a shooting attack and since most shooting attacks have an AP can we safely assume that since it doesn't have an AP it is by definition AP -? I'm not trying to disagree with you, I'm playing devils advocate here.

Sanguinis wrote:Excellent point Tri, except this isn't a close combat attack this is a shooting attack and since most shooting attacks have an AP can we safely assume that since it doesn't have an AP it is by definition AP -? I'm not trying to disagree with you, I'm playing devils advocate here.

No I'm just point that out, but to be fair there are examples of close combat attacks with AP and ranged weapons without. The simple fact is that "AP -" is one thing, not having an AP is a completely different thing.

No, there is no AP listed. An absence of AP rule does not make it AP-. If I played someone who tried to tell me it was an AP- and forced me to play it as such, I'd probably quietly pack up my stuff, thank him/her for a game and walk out. Thankfully, my friends don't question things like this-they generally go by common sense (which we all know doesn't work in warhammer, but we try to use it as much as possible).

It doesn't have a listed value of AP -, therefore it isn't. You can no more arbitrarily assign it AP - than you can AP 1.

If it ignores armor saves, it'd probably be more correct to call it AP2, not AP-.

But of course, it's neither, and a glance is a glance. Just roll -2, or -1 against open topped.

What is Breath of Chaos?

I could not find it in the CSM book.

That's because it's not in the CSM book.

There's another Chaos codex, you know! It still exists! It'll be good again, really!

*sobs into her pillow*

Mind letting us know where it is then?

Codex: Chaos Daemons.
Daemonic Gifts, page 73.
Flamers of Tzneentch, page 39.

Great unit, by the way. Like pretty much everything in that codex, it was hurt quite a bit by the changes in 5e. Nevertheless, it still possesses one of the best template weapons in the game.

It's basically an AP2 template that wounds/glances on a 4+.

It's a template that ignores saves, except invun.

Against vehicles it works normally.

Only those attacks/shots listed as ap - are ap -. If you want to try to argue otherwise you won't get far.

It shouldn't need to be stated, but Breath of Chaos also ignores FNP. Great way to get rid of those troublesome plague marines, eh?

I've always treated it as AP 2, I know it has no stated AP, but AP 2 allows it to function the way it is described. It penetrates all Armour Saves and causes no modifiers on the vehicle damage table.

Yea, sounds ap2 to me from the description.

Flamers are by far my favourite unit. I run Mono-Tzeentch or Tzeentch/Nurgle lists with my Daemons.

You can either use them as machine guns (especially against 4+ saves or worse) or as armour-ignoring flamethrowers

Now if only they dodn't cost so effing much for the models...