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Which do you prefer and why?

They have completely different roles, but I prefer Rhinos for the capacity, and especially the price.

Depends on the codex too. C:SM is rhinos 90% of the time.

i dont see why you would want all 10 guys charging forwards in a rhino when, for a few more points, you can have your heavy weapon sit back, and bring up the close range guys with another heavy weapon that can move and fire...if im going to spend 35 points on a transport for 10(maybe 11), ill take a drop pod, same points as a rhino, with a free storm bolter and faster access to close range shooting, plus its my favorite model asthetically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but if your wondering which kit to get, alway ALWAYS get the razorback kit, cuz it still can make a rhino, plus you have the option of a razorback if need be, for only $2 more...

Reckoner wrote:Which do you prefer and why?

Well, as said it depends on the army you want to play.
For GK Purifiers, players tend to prefer Razorbacks over Rhinos.

jordanis wrote:i dont see why you would want all 10 guys charging forwards in a rhino when, for a few more points, you can have your heavy weapon sit back, and bring up the close range guys with another heavy weapon that can move and fire...if im going to spend 35 points on a transport for 10(maybe 11), ill take a drop pod, same points as a rhino, with a free storm bolter and faster access to close range shooting, plus its my favorite model asthetically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but if your wondering which kit to get, alway ALWAYS get the razorback kit, cuz it still can make a rhino, plus you have the option of a razorback if need be, for only $2 more...

10 tac marines are harder to remove on an objective compared to 5 tac marines. Plus if you're sitting on a backfield objective, you can also use the Rhino to lob missiles because you know, firing points.

For SW I will say they are both good.

2 melta's from the top hatch is not bad at all. And 5 GH with a WG fit snugly inside a razorback. Long fangs fit nicely outside a razorback.

jordanis wrote:i dont see why you would want all 10 guys charging forwards in a rhino when, for a few more points, you can have your heavy weapon sit back, and bring up the close range guys with another heavy weapon that can move and fire...if im going to spend 35 points on a transport for 10(maybe 11), ill take a drop pod, same points as a rhino, with a free storm bolter and faster access to close range shooting, plus its my favorite model asthetically.

Yes but that has a couple problems:
-The Drop Pod provides limited protection (beyond LOS-blocking) so the squad will get shot up next turn; with a Rhino at least the enemy has to blow it up first, and it can still pop smoke, so it is likely to get them close enough to assault
-Drop Pods can't camp objectives
-You can't move a Drop Pod around after it drops off its troops (obviously), so you can't go screen units or pick up others

Razors in razorspam armies with 6-12 upgraded razorbacks can be effective. They need small units with some kind of melta inside, and they either form a vehicle gunline and shoot things at a distance, or close for melta shots on things that need it.

The less effective way to take razorbacks is to put 1 or 2 into an army that isn't otherwise designed to give them a role. At 75 points for one of the good weapon upgrades, you're better off getting a speeder or attack bike (or dakka predator for 10 points more) for supporting fire. A typhoon speeder for only 15 points more is typically much more effective if you're only buying a few to add extra long-range shots.

One of the more effective ways of using rhinos that I've seen uses combat squads to break the unit into the melta hunter half--five guys in the rhino with a melta and combi melta--then the other five guys sitting in cover with the heavy weapon. Rhinos are better for this because you want to roll them up 6" and fire the melta out the hatches without disembarking. That way, the unit that gets de-meched by your shot can't shoot or assault your melta squad until they deal with your transport first.

In a KP game, a full tac squad in a rhino can roll on from reserve and bunker at the back edge of the table, firing only the heavy weapon.

The only way to use rhinos ineffectively IMO is not to take them. They're so cheap and offer so many tactical options to an infantry unit that I just consider them part of the cost of a tac squad.

Buy the Razor Back, make all the options, play the Rhino for moving monkies.

Razor Back Meltsas, with a Melta inside and a PF. As far as Rhino, 10 guys moving in like that should be CC only, some Plasma, Melta, and/or RF but mostly CC.

Rhino: CHEAP - used for all troop squads for all occasions.
Razor Back: Only when you run out of fast or heavy slots.

Alright, so why is the Razorback preferred in a GK Purifier army?

Reckoner wrote:Alright, so why is the Razorback preferred in a GK Purifier army?

Its a trade-off. Rhinos can protect the Purifiers while they are shooting 2 psycannons from the top hatch. However, the Rhinos has only a storm bolter. On the other hand, the Razorback has a nice heavy weapon, while the Purifiers have to go out of the transport to shoot their weapons and in this way get exposed to enemy fire.

I see. Well it sounds like you would want to be firing the Psycannons more than the heavy weapon no? So wouldn't the Rhino be the better choice then?

It depends entirely on what squad is in it and what your army needs. I have a Razorback for my 5man strike squad so that they can camp an objective and still add some long ranged support, the only upgrade I give it is Psybolt Ammunition for the TL HB.

Check out Mercer's battle reports. He runs a las/plas razorspam list (8 razors @ 2000 points IIRC) and he has pretty good results. Not saying the list is an auto win, but in the hands of a player that knows how to use the list, its crazy effective.

OIF Knight wrote:Check out Mercer's battle reports. He runs a las/plas razorspam list (8 razors @ 2000 points IIRC) and he has pretty good results. Not saying the list is an auto win, but in the hands of a player that knows how to use the list, its crazy effective.

Mercer seems to run this kind of list no matter if he plays BA or GK. However, if you play BA with small Assault squads or GK with small Strike squads, then the Razorback makes sense. The situation is different if you field Purifiers as you generally pay for 2 psycannons. In this case, I'd prefer Rhinos.

If you want say a few large squads, rhinos are a good choice. Two weapons can shoot out of the top hatch so say a plasma and missile launcher or melta and multimelta can both fire. OTOH take a long fang squad where you have 5 HW in the squad, you are going to want to be outside however a razorback can add to the long-distance mayhem the unit can cause.

Personnally, I like firepower armies so I would have a tendency to favor 3 razorbacks with 15 marines over 2 rhinos with 20 marines. But that is purely my choice. OTOH rhino lists that don't plan on moving, can be just as effective when you figure the HW and SW get to fire out of the top hatch as opposed to 5 marines hunkering down inside a razorback.

Rhinos are a transport. They exist to move 12" per turn.

Razorbacks are gunboats. They exist to shoot. In order to shoot, you can't move 12" per turn.

If you want a transport, take a rhino. If you want a long-range support unit that counts as scoring, take a razorback. Simple as that.

Ailaros, again, it depends on the list. In regards to Rhinos, they don't always move 12". They can, but sometimes they're also used as MM midfield bunkers.

But a rhino isn't a bunker - it's only AV11/10. How long do you anticipate getting to sit out in the open of mid-field and actually get to do anything?

In the case of SM the razorback isn't as effective truly. Razorbacks only carry 8, for tac squads to have any of the effective weaponry you need to be 10 men strong. With the SM codex not having many options for small squads that remain effective it seems ineffective. Even with the added HW you still leave a squad without the best parts of them. Perhaps you could run sternguard in them and that would be effective.

Ailaros wrote:Rhinos are a transport. They exist to move 12" per turn.

Razorbacks are gunboats. They exist to shoot. In order to shoot, you can't move 12" per turn.

If you want a transport, take a rhino. If you want a long-range support unit that counts as scoring, take a razorback. Simple as that.

AresX8 wrote:Ailaros, again, it depends on the list. In regards to Rhinos, they don't always move 12". They can, but sometimes they're also used as MM midfield bunkers.

Yes, but what are you going to do with a rhino on the first turn, compared to say a TLLC or LC/TLPG razorback? I'd say your more likely to move 12" with the rhino than with the razorback.

I've always been a fan of dev/long fangs with a 'back nearby. Good for DoW, good for that extra shot/s, good to give some cover to the fangs even. Shame I don't always have the points to get one


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dmthomas7 wrote:In the case of SM the razorback isn't as effective truly. Razorbacks only carry 8, for tac squads to have any of the effective weaponry you need to be 10 men strong. With the SM codex not having many options for small squads that remain effective it seems ineffective. Even with the added HW you still leave a squad without the best parts of them. Perhaps you could run sternguard in them and that would be effective.

Yes, lets put our elite troops with awesome shooting capability into a more expensive transport that they cannot shoot out of. Pass the crack pipe plox

As I just mentioned, dev's. Helps in DoW. Use the vehicle to gain a coversave.

Ailaros wrote:But a rhino isn't a bunker - it's only AV11/10. How long do you anticipate getting to sit out in the open of mid-field and actually get to do anything?

Really now? Why would you have a troop unit sitting in the open when it's suppose to be capturing? A MM bunker sits on an objective that was placed in cover that is also midfield. This establishes a 2 foot killzone to any vehicle that wants to approach said objective. Now multiply this by 2-3x, and you effectively lock down the midfield to vehicles.

Jihallah wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Rhinos are a transport. They exist to move 12" per turn.

Razorbacks are gunboats. They exist to shoot. In order to shoot, you can't move 12" per turn.

If you want a transport, take a rhino. If you want a long-range support unit that counts as scoring, take a razorback. Simple as that.

AresX8 wrote:Ailaros, again, it depends on the list. In regards to Rhinos, they don't always move 12". They can, but sometimes they're also used as MM midfield bunkers.

Yes, but what are you going to do with a rhino on the first turn, compared to say a TLLC or LC/TLPG razorback? I'd say your more likely to move 12" with the rhino than with the razorback.

...

Of course you'd move a MM bunker Rhino on first turn because there's nothing in range.

dmthomas7 wrote:In the case of SM the razorback isn't as effective truly. Razorbacks only carry 8, for tac squads to have any of the effective weaponry you need to be 10 men strong. With the SM codex not having many options for small squads that remain effective it seems ineffective. Even with the added HW you still leave a squad without the best parts of them. Perhaps you could run sternguard in them and that would be effective.

Razors can only hold 6. What most people do is combat squad the heavy weapon (most commonly a ML) and leave it in cover close to the back of the board, and put the special weapon and Sarge inside the Razorback.

AresX8 wrote:Really now? Why would you have a troop unit sitting in the open when it's suppose to be capturing? A MM bunker sits on an objective that was placed in cover that is also midfield. This establishes a 2 foot killzone to any vehicle that wants to approach said objective. Now multiply this by 2-3x, and you effectively lock down the midfield to vehicles...

Of course you'd move a MM bunker Rhino on first turn because there's nothing in range.

You're stepping on your own toes here.

If you're moving a rhino, as you say you must, then the vehicle isn't being a shooty vehicle. Once you get to somewhere and want to blast away, it still doesn't change the fact that AV 11/10 isn't very durable, especially if you're now closer to the enemy, and thus in melta/assault range. If you want to talk about units being in cover, well, they certainly get that without a rhino on the one hand, and they get it from driving forward and plopping out into cover on the other.

Plus, a rhino with a MM is ludicrously expensive for what amounts to a single melta shot per turn. If you want a gunboat, take a razorback. Take a dreadnought. Take a predator. A tac squad in a box is a pretty crappy way to go about it.

AresX8 wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Rhinos are a transport. They exist to move 12" per turn.

Razorbacks are gunboats. They exist to shoot. In order to shoot, you can't move 12" per turn.

If you want a transport, take a rhino. If you want a long-range support unit that counts as scoring, take a razorback. Simple as that.

AresX8 wrote:Ailaros, again, it depends on the list. In regards to Rhinos, they don't always move 12". They can, but sometimes they're also used as MM midfield bunkers.

Yes, but what are you going to do with a rhino on the first turn, compared to say a TLLC or LC/TLPG razorback? I'd say your more likely to move 12" with the rhino than with the razorback.

...

Of course you'd move a MM bunker Rhino on first turn because there's nothing in range.

That's my point. Rhino's need to move, unless your sitting back with an ML/PC/LC. And they require the occupants inside in your example of the MM to do the work for them- hence they are transports. You are transporting your MM rapidly up the field, and using the fire point to create a bunker. razorbacks using the above mentioned configs which are quite popular are quite happy sitting back plinking shots, and the PG/LC back is quite happy to advance up to get both its guns in range-gunboat.

Ailaros wrote:

Plus, a rhino with a MM is ludicrously expensive for what amounts to a single melta shot per turn. If you want a gunboat, take a razorback. Take a dreadnought. Take a predator. A tac squad in a box is a pretty crappy way to go about it.

... a troop choice that I have to take, with a free MM at 10 men, sitting on an midfield objective in a rhino. Can also have a 5p meltagun. Doesn't sound like a ludicrously expensive idea for a tac squad, and would mesh well with other things you can do in the SM codex.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

jordanis wrote:i dont see why you would want all 10 guys charging forwards in a rhino when, for a few more points, you can have your heavy weapon sit back, and bring up the close range guys with another heavy weapon that can move and fire...if im going to spend 35 points on a transport for 10(maybe 11), ill take a drop pod, same points as a rhino, with a free storm bolter and faster access to close range shooting, plus its my favorite model asthetically.

Yes but that has a couple problems:
-The Drop Pod provides limited protection (beyond LOS-blocking) so the squad will get shot up next turn; with a Rhino at least the enemy has to blow it up first, and it can still pop smoke, so it is likely to get them close enough to assault
-Drop Pods can't camp objectives
-You can't move a Drop Pod around after it drops off its troops (obviously), so you can't go screen units or pick up others

Yeah, but drop pods are awesome looking.

In fact the sole reason I would start any kind of imperial force

If you want to spam something like lascannons, it is cheaper to do it with razorbacks than with a squad of marines.

1. It is cheaper
2. It costs less to qualify for (10 marines at 15 each versus 40 for the razorback)

Do it once and it doesn't matter but want to field 4 or 5 of them and the razorback becomes THE choice. The weakness is your squads inside lack any real hitting power in HTH and lack resiliency to taking damage.

Again it is a matter of choice and preference for an army.

Your playstyle and list is what depends on what you wanna run.

Generally I see SW players run rhinos and razorbacks mixed; large assault units, and then small, shooty, elite units in back. It seems to work fine with Longfang support.

BA players generally migrate to Razorspam and try and shoot their opponents off the board.

SM goes for rhinos more often because they get more benefits running 10 man squads than small squads.

GK.... highly varies. Most run Purifier/Psybolter Spam, some run various versions, strike users run Rhinos.

So in the end, depends on the role you want the unit to perform and the army makeup. My buddy runs BA razorspam and just tries to blast you off the board. Does it work? Many games, yes. Some games. not so much. Others, like myself, prefer larger units so I don't get picked apart so easily.

Ailaros wrote:But a rhino isn't a bunker - it's only AV11/10. How long do you anticipate getting to sit out in the open of mid-field and actually get to do anything?

It will sit out in the open of mid-field for part of at least one shooting phase--protecting the passengers from being targeted for at least part of one shooting phase, which is often enough to make a difference between a win and a loss.

I'm with AresX8 on this one. Based on my experience, 3-4 rhinos driving into midfield and bunkering up with multimeltas is a very tough firebase to counter. Yes, the rhinos may die at that point, but by that time they've done their job of delivering tac squads to the key areas of the table in one turn, so who cares?

Also "melta hunter" units--a combat squad with maxed meltaguns in a rhino that zips around shooting out of the hatches--is a more effective anti-heavy-armor unit than anything a razorback can mount.