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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Making Guardians BS4 is making me scratch my head. From a fluff sense, it makes no sense. On a lot of craftworlds, guardians are supposed to be a last resort - artists, poets, and janitors press-ganged into defending the craftworld.

Sure you could point to superior Elder tech compensating for this, but it makes a mockery of other elite units that have trained for years/ fought in a 100 battles, to gain that BS4

I think the whole idea of this codex is to give of the desperation off the Eldar as their race dies, and their willingness to do anything to prevent their extinction. That's why there's the focus on wraiths, before Eldar used them sparingly but now they're forced to call upon the dead to serve them in their time of need.

I'd say the logic they're using to support the change in guardian's WS and BS (fluff wise) is that everyone is turning to war and warlike practices in order to save the Eldar race, and as a consequence they're becoming more skilled.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Making Guardians BS4 is making me scratch my head. From a fluff sense, it makes no sense. On a lot of craftworlds, guardians are supposed to be a last resort - artists, poets, and janitors press-ganged into defending the craftworld.

Sure you could point to superior Elder tech compensating for this, but it makes a mockery of other elite units that have trained for years/ fought in a 100 battles, to gain that BS4

I'm sure the same could be said for Veteran Imperial Guardsmen - who have served maybe 20/30 years - being BS4 and Space Marines, who train their whole life an have supremely powerful reflexes and senses and yet, have the same BS.

Iranna.

Don't forget that some of those guardians might have been warriors before. An eldar takes many paths in their lives. A traveller at the path of the artisan may have travelled many at the path of the warrior before.

KaiyaA wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Making Guardians BS4 is making me scratch my head. From a fluff sense, it makes no sense. On a lot of craftworlds, guardians are supposed to be a last resort - artists, poets, and janitors press-ganged into defending the craftworld.

Sure you could point to superior Elder tech compensating for this, but it makes a mockery of other elite units that have trained for years/ fought in a 100 battles, to gain that BS4

I think the whole idea of this codex is to give of the desperation off the Eldar as their race dies, and their willingness to do anything to prevent their extinction. That's why there's the focus on wraiths, before Eldar used them sparingly but now they're forced to call upon the dead to serve them in their time of need.

I'd say the logic they're using to support the change in guardian's WS and BS (fluff wise) is that everyone is turning to war and warlike practices in order to save the Eldar race, and as a consequence they're becoming more skilled.

Yeah that's not a bad reason actually. I really like the portrayal of the Eldar race becoming increasingly more reliant on their dead.

Does anyone know anything about Eldrad's fluff in this codex? I thought he might be a Wraith construct of some sort.

 Iranna wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Making Guardians BS4 is making me scratch my head. From a fluff sense, it makes no sense. On a lot of craftworlds, guardians are supposed to be a last resort - artists, poets, and janitors press-ganged into defending the craftworld.

Sure you could point to superior Elder tech compensating for this, but it makes a mockery of other elite units that have trained for years/ fought in a 100 battles, to gain that BS4

I'm sure the same could be said for Veteran Imperial Guardsmen - who have served maybe 20/30 years - being BS4 and Space Marines, who train their whole life an have supremely powerful reflexes and senses and yet, have the same BS.

Iranna.

Not to mention many Guardians may be former Aspect Warrior and they are still Eldar (superior reflexes, mental fortitude, etc..). All Eldar, even non-combat ones, are trained in the use of their shuriken weapons. It's not like they are fresh IG recruits thrown into the meatgrinder. Eldar commonly live for a long time (2nd Edition says at least 1000 years) so they are veteran enough if they live for a few 100 years at least.

Or you could just say that they are more volved, beeing Starchilds etc etc. hence having high skill in many things, amongst them shooting a gun.

 shamikebab wrote:

KaiyaA wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Making Guardians BS4 is making me scratch my head. From a fluff sense, it makes no sense. On a lot of craftworlds, guardians are supposed to be a last resort - artists, poets, and janitors press-ganged into defending the craftworld.

Sure you could point to superior Elder tech compensating for this, but it makes a mockery of other elite units that have trained for years/ fought in a 100 battles, to gain that BS4

I think the whole idea of this codex is to give of the desperation off the Eldar as their race dies, and their willingness to do anything to prevent their extinction. That's why there's the focus on wraiths, before Eldar used them sparingly but now they're forced to call upon the dead to serve them in their time of need.

I'd say the logic they're using to support the change in guardian's WS and BS (fluff wise) is that everyone is turning to war and warlike practices in order to save the Eldar race, and as a consequence they're becoming more skilled.

Yeah that's not a bad reason actually. I really like the portrayal of the Eldar race becoming increasingly more reliant on their dead.

Does anyone know anything about Eldrad's fluff in this codex? I thought he might be a Wraith construct of some sort.

That would also explain the use of the new bomber. According to GW it is an extremely controversial weapon among the Eldar due to the overwhelming fear and terror it causes. The increased use of something like that would probably support the whole desperate final measures. I personally love the idea of a desperate Eldar using any means necessary to win, and if it gives reason to Guardians having WS 4 and BS 4. Then I'm a happy man.

 Iranna wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Making Guardians BS4 is making me scratch my head. From a fluff sense, it makes no sense. On a lot of craftworlds, guardians are supposed to be a last resort - artists, poets, and janitors press-ganged into defending the craftworld.

Sure you could point to superior Elder tech compensating for this, but it makes a mockery of other elite units that have trained for years/ fought in a 100 battles, to gain that BS4

I'm sure the same could be said for Veteran Imperial Guardsmen - who have served maybe 20/30 years - being BS4 and Space Marines, who train their whole life an have supremely powerful reflexes and senses and yet, have the same BS.

Iranna.

I would keep all guardsmen BS3, but that's just my bias as a former ork player!

Chrysis wrote:

Theorius wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
So.. is if an autarch can take as he pleases from the wargear list is anyone else thinking for like 200 pts of fun (autarch, jet bike, striking scorpion power claw snap shot disarm ability and fire Pike for 2 shot 18 in. melta with 2+ re rollable cover?) And hit and run with probably 4 or 5 base attacks at str. 6 I'm very excited for this book xD and then if there's points left take the Phoenix gem thing to come back to life!

unless i missed something autarchs dont get exarch powers just weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:
I can understand removing it from a book keeping perspective. But I'll miss forcing my opponent to make choices on if moving is worth the risk.

Also, if accurate, the Cannon might be S8 vs. vehicles. The rumour for monofilament is that if the target Initiative is 3 or less (or nothing) it gets +1 Strength. Most vehicles don't have an Initiative value, so if that counts as Nothing for monofilament that boosts anti-vehicle effectiveness considerably.

This is all assuming the rumours are all accurate, and with the number of typos in that page it's a stretch. Creamer Cannon anyone? I wouldn't be surprised if the Nightspinner was S6 like every other mono-filament weapon.

these arent rumors they are from the codex and your right it has no initiative so +1 strength!!!

They're rumours until I see them in the codex in 2/3 days time.

They may be credible rumours, but the fact that it's a home made translation effort coupled with the innumerable spelling mistakes means I'm not going to accept them as 100% accurate. When 7 is right next to 6 on a keyboard and every other similar weapon has the same Strength I'm not going to take as gospel that the mono-cannon is S7.

7 is not right next to 6 on the numpad

 shamikebab wrote:
I thought the vehicles should be BS4 (advanced targeting equipment, better training whatever) but Guardians should have been kept as BS3.

What I wanted to say!

Thanks for the info Darge.

I am a little disappointed that the Autarch appears to have nothing new except the relics.

What happened to the rule allowing him to move Aspect squads around the FOC? That would have been awesome and put him a bit higher up the take list for HQ choices.

I am hoping we just don't have all the info yet.

Good points by people concerning guardians, but what the game needs is a spinal tap turn it up to 11 option for the really elite, elite units! Otherwise, everybody will be running around with BS4, and where's the fun in that!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Good points by people concerning guardians, but what the game needs is a spinal tap turn it up to 11 option for the really elite, elite units! Otherwise, everybody will be running around with BS4, and where's the fun in that!

What's a spinal tap?

 Iranna wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Making Guardians BS4 is making me scratch my head. From a fluff sense, it makes no sense. On a lot of craftworlds, guardians are supposed to be a last resort - artists, poets, and janitors press-ganged into defending the craftworld.

Sure you could point to superior Elder tech compensating for this, but it makes a mockery of other elite units that have trained for years/ fought in a 100 battles, to gain that BS4

I'm sure the same could be said for Veteran Imperial Guardsmen - who have served maybe 20/30 years - being BS4 and Space Marines, who train their whole life an have supremely powerful reflexes and senses and yet, have the same BS.

Iranna.

Then again, Eldar are alive for hundreds of years on average, so it stands to reason with their superior reflexes, lighting quick mental processing and superhuman grace, BS 4 isn't really out of the ballpark. They would be naturally better due to their racial reflexes and extended lifespan.

Although I find it hard to believe my Guardians won't be missing half the time anymore. I am so used to BS 3 ... that will take some getting used to.

 Iranna wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Making Guardians BS4 is making me scratch my head. From a fluff sense, it makes no sense. On a lot of craftworlds, guardians are supposed to be a last resort - artists, poets, and janitors press-ganged into defending the craftworld.

Sure you could point to superior Elder tech compensating for this, but it makes a mockery of other elite units that have trained for years/ fought in a 100 battles, to gain that BS4

I'm sure the same could be said for Veteran Imperial Guardsmen - who have served maybe 20/30 years - being BS4 and Space Marines, who train their whole life an have supremely powerful reflexes and senses and yet, have the same BS.

Most Space Marines don't live for decades or centuries, likewise many Guard regiments are raised with troops who have been in military training programs since birth or live in such harsh societies as to approximate it, such as Cadians, Catachans, Krieg, etc. 20/30 years of combat experience is enough to merit senior command such as generalship in a human military, it's an insane amount of combat experience. One will also note that largely this only applies to BS, human veteran troops do not get increases to Initiative or Weapon Skill either.

Guardians are the human equivalent of conscripts, who are WS2/BS2.Yeah some may have previously been Warriors, but likely not many, and those skills get rusty, on top of the fact that they're an entirely different person when they're fighting (and when they're no longer on that path it's set aside entirely) so then they're not likely really gaining as much from that experience. Guardians getting WS4/BS4 I5 was the laziest way of improving them possible. Instead of building on their background and making them a utility unit, something that can reinforce cover or create/remove obstacles, operate webways to teleport units, attach a Bonesinger to repair vehicles and Wraith units, etc, stuff that Guardians really would be fit to do, they just got lazy and stuffed Aspect Warrior stats on them, and now the Aspect Warriors really are defined pretty much just by Wargear.

It'll satisfy the people who think "zomg Eldar are sooooooo superior to humans", but doesn't really fit what they are, nor does it really solve their fundamental problems that they've faced for several editions now, being too short ranged to effectively use their weapons and lacking the resiliency and close combat ability to get to and survive in the ranges where their weapons are useful.

Here's to 3+ Terminators and 2+ Wraithguard!
With that debuff Banshees will once again be able to kill Termies quite easily, if only they could get into combat without beeing shot dead first that is =\

Overall I like the codex except for the fact that guardians seems viable en mass. "Hidden" pws in the storm guardians are ok I guess. But the same stats on aspects and guardians is really meh :(

But overall, a very psyker heavy army (as it should be) disarm on the Avatar will be nice. though no points cost so could well be too expensive.

Guardians viable en masse? You're obviously reading different rumors to me.

Guardians being BS4 is largely irrelevant if that 40k apoc post is accurate as it would appear they kept their pistol range firearms. The statistically average move and charge is 13", i hope the fluff references the fact Guardians are never issued more than a single magazine because in battle none of them ever live long enough to fire twice....

 Vaktathi wrote:


Most Space Marines don't live for decades or centuries, likewise many Guard regiments are raised with troops who have been in military training programs since birth or live in such harsh societies as to approximate it, such as Cadians, Catachans, Krieg, etc. 20/30 years of combat experience is enough to merit senior command such as generalship in a human military, it's an insane amount of combat experience. One will also note that largely this only applies to BS, human veteran troops do not get increases to Initiative or Weapon Skill either.

Guardians are the human equivalent of conscripts, who are WS2/BS2. Guardians getting WS4/BS4 I5 was the laziest way of improving them possible. Instead of building on their background and making them a utility unit, something that can reinforce cover or create/remove obstacles, operate webways to teleport units, attach a Bonesinger to repair vehicles and Wraith units, etc, stuff that Guardians really would be fit to do, they just got lazy and stuffed Aspect Warrior stats on them, and now the Aspect Warriors really are defined pretty much just by Wargear.

It'll satisfy the people who think "zomg Eldar are sooooooo superior to humans", but doesn't really fit what they are, nor does it really solve their fundamental problems that they've faced for several editions now, being too short ranged to effectively use their weapons and lacking the resiliency and close combat ability to get to and survive in the ranges where their weapons are useful.

I'm sure most Space Marines do in fact live for centuries - if I'm not mistaken - Dante is 1100 years old. I realise that he is an exceptional case, but it does go to show that "normal" Space Marines are perfectly capable and probable that they do live for 3 or 4 centuries.

I agree with your point about laziness, but I'd argue that would extend to almost every BS4 unit out there. Much like S and T, a BS of 4 has become standard in the game and so it's almost expected.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:


Most Space Marines don't live for decades or centuries, likewise many Guard regiments are raised with troops who have been in military training programs since birth or live in such harsh societies as to approximate it, such as Cadians, Catachans, Krieg, etc. 20/30 years of combat experience is enough to merit senior command such as generalship in a human military, it's an insane amount of combat experience. One will also note that largely this only applies to BS, human veteran troops do not get increases to Initiative or Weapon Skill either.

Guardians are the human equivalent of conscripts, who are WS2/BS2. Guardians getting WS4/BS4 I5 was the laziest way of improving them possible. Instead of building on their background and making them a utility unit, something that can reinforce cover or create/remove obstacles, operate webways to teleport units, attach a Bonesinger to repair vehicles and Wraith units, etc, stuff that Guardians really would be fit to do, they just got lazy and stuffed Aspect Warrior stats on them, and now the Aspect Warriors really are defined pretty much just by Wargear.

It'll satisfy the people who think "zomg Eldar are sooooooo superior to humans", but doesn't really fit what they are, nor does it really solve their fundamental problems that they've faced for several editions now, being too short ranged to effectively use their weapons and lacking the resiliency and close combat ability to get to and survive in the ranges where their weapons are useful.

I'm sure most Space Marines do in fact live for centuries - if I'm not mistaken - Dante is 1100 years old. I realise that he is an exceptional case, but it does go to show that "normal" Space Marines are perfectly capable and probable that they do live for 3 or 4 centuries.

I agree with your point about laziness, but I'd argue that would extend to almost every BS4 unit out there. Much like S and T, a BS of 4 has become standard in the game and so it's almost expected.

Iranna.

It is true I would have preferred bs/ws 3 with a lesser points cost, or a "neat" ability that gave more options the player, instead of more features. It will be harder to feel badass to beat a bunch of Space Marines when I am more evenly matched ...

 evildrspock wrote:
It is true I would have preferred bs/ws 3 with a lesser points cost, or a "neat" ability that gave more options the player, instead of more features. It will be harder to feel badass to beat a bunch of Space Marines when I am more evenly matched ...

If it helps you get a worse armour save and a gun that only functions in spitting distance? Still a fair way from evenly matched.

Iranna wrote:

I'm sure most Space Marines do in fact live for centuries - if I'm not mistaken - Dante is 1100 years old. I realise that he is an exceptional case, but it does go to show that "normal" Space Marines are perfectly capable and probable that they do live for 3 or 4 centuries.

Capable of it? Yes, I won't argue that. Most however die long before that. If SM's sustain even a 1% casualty rate per year (meaning every year, despite being constantly engaged in combat operations only 10 marines die in a Space Marine chapter), you're looking at a relatively short lifespan for most Space Marines.

I agree with your point about laziness, but I'd argue that would extend to almost every BS4 unit out there. Much like S and T, a BS of 4 has become standard in the game and so it's almost expected.

Which is honestly more than anything else my main problem with it. I don't think they'll be in any way "broken" with it, in fact I don't think they'll really be more useful/popular than they were before to be honest, my main problem with it is that it reinforces the trend that 4's are the average and 3's are somehow "below average" and undesireable, when 3 *should* be typical and 4's should be exceptional, and does so in such an unnecessary manner.

 Melcavuk wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
It is true I would have preferred bs/ws 3 with a lesser points cost, or a "neat" ability that gave more options the player, instead of more features. It will be harder to feel badass to beat a bunch of Space Marines when I am more evenly matched ...

If it helps you get a worse armour save and a gun that only functions in spitting distance? Still a fair way from evenly matched.

Well yeah, I never said they were even one-on-one, there's just something about cannon fodder wasting the ever so valuable single marines that feels good. And, I'm sure it probably still will, regardless of WS/BS scores.

/xenosHatingMarinesRant

I wonder about vehicle squadrons. Or force organization overhauls. I still personally hope Vypers and Falcons can make a comeback, though I know they will take a backseat to the new guys as they have in the past. Gotta fight with the classics!

If it is true about guardians going up to ws and bs 4, I will be in a way disappointed as that is meant to be aspect warrior territory, unless they go up to 5, which we know won't happen.

There could have been so many ways to improve guardians but it seems they have taken the easy way out if these rumours are true.

 rohansoldier wrote:
If it is true about guardians going up to ws and bs 4, I will be in a way disappointed as that is meant to be aspect warrior territory, unless they go up to 5, which we know won't happen.

There could have been so many ways to improve guardians but it seems they have taken the easy way out if these rumours are true.

I won't be disappointed at all.

10 BS4 guys who can disembark 6", run (with a re-roll) and then fire. All for 90pts.

They're gonna be one of my staple Troops choices.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

 rohansoldier wrote:
If it is true about guardians going up to ws and bs 4, I will be in a way disappointed as that is meant to be aspect warrior territory, unless they go up to 5, which we know won't happen.

There could have been so many ways to improve guardians but it seems they have taken the easy way out if these rumours are true.

I won't be disappointed at all.

10 BS4 guys who can disembark 6", run (with a re-roll) and then fire. All for 90pts.

They're gonna be one of my staple Troops choices.

Iranna.

Don't forget they'll be firing rending weapons!

In fantasy the high elf militia are WS4 BS4 and I5, and I think we can easliy say that guardians and high elf infantry have the pretty much the same fluff. All High Elves are required to train for military service, all Eldar are required to train for military service, etc. Makes sense if you ask me. And no, guardians aren't soviet conscripts rounded up and forced onto cattle cars, they actually do know how to fight.

 Shandara wrote:
It's not like they are fresh IG recruits thrown into the meatgrinder.

And it's not like they're Marines either.

Think of it this way:

Untrained Human Conscript - WS/BS2.
Trained Human/Untrained Eldar - WS/BS3
Super-Human/Trained Eldar - WS/BS4

Aspect Warriors are Marine level, not Guardians. When you train an Eldar in the ways of war, their skills match that of humanities super soldiers (strength/toughness notwithstanding). When you don't train the Eldar and give them basic "point this end at the enemy and press this" training they are the equivalent of humanities trained soldiers. That, more than anything, shows how skilled the Eldar are.

BS4 on vehicles? No issue. That's tech.

Guardians en mass are gonna abused to hell since now they are able to kill even termies. They are paper thin armored but even the lowest eldar now has rending :/. Don't get me wrong I am an eldar player and I love my long ears but BS4 guardians with rending weapons screams buy more Guardians / Dire avengers / GJB. Dire avengers with their extended range received a great buff thus the price hike .

Do we know what the serpant does? Is there any upgrade that allows troops to assault out of it? Generally speaking do we have any info about vehicle upgrades?

Going back through this thread, it looks like we can fire a weapon while going flat out and get +1 cover save from holo fields. And on wave serpants, they have that energy field which can apparently either kill stuff or reduce pen hits to glances.

Can't find anything on falcons being dedicated transports though.

Well three glances still kill you so you aren't greatly postponing the inevitable...Not being able to assault out of it still makes it crap.