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Bols has the most fair FAQ, and they treat "Counts as Troops" = "Is a troops choice"

Kaotik wrote:I am thinking of something like this. It fits more into the Herohammer mold that people have discussed as opposed to a balanced list, but I think it has potential.

Wolf Lord on TW- Warrior Born - Heavily Kitted
w/ 15 wolves

Canis
w/ 15 Wolves

WGBL on TW-Mildly Kitted
w/15 Wolves

WGBL on TW-Mildly Kitted
w/15 wolves

2x10man GH squads in Rhinos with 2x Meltas

1x10man GH squad in Rhino w/ Melta+Plasma Gun.

I am thinking I could do that in around 1500 points. Allowing for 160 pts for the Lord and around 110pts per WGBL with deffinate melta-bombs for all the HQ's that will always hit on 3+. This would make a VERY mobile force and with keeping one of the GH squads in reserve I would be very well suited to handle node missions and have enough hitting power to takeout tanks or Horde. The wolf packs are basically delivery systems for the characters to get them into CC as quickly as possible, and with everything moving as fast as it does I should only have to take one round of decent shooting before I am on top of them with my army. Turn one Rhinos sheild the wolfpacks and pop smoke giving them some safety on that round even.

I think this book has alot of potential. It will just require breaking away even further from standard SM tactics and I am all for that.

Kao

Just gotta point out that, that army really isn't all that mobile you still are only limited to 6 inch movement phases, only your assault phase is altered. And yes you would be carrying 7 troops selections. Pretty sure your not able to pick and choose if you want your wolves to be fast attack or troops, they are one or the other.

Durandal wrote:Bols has the most fair FAQ, and they treat "Counts as Troops" = "Is a troops choice"

Can you post a link to their FAQ? I have Gwar!'s but I think his is a little off on somethings. I've edited it, but I'd like to see someone else's take on things.

If "Counts As" is equal to being "Taken As" that choice then ya my list is over on troops choices. Could easily remove one of the WGBL, his wolves, and replace the wolves from the other WGBL with some TWC. Would lose one unit but make the other twice as tough. The wolves not counting as scoring is OK with me since at 1500 pts I will be alright with three 10 man units of marines for node taking. Use the wolves/HQ for node denial.

My opinion remains that most good SW armies are going to end up making use of the wolves/twc whether they like the idea of it or not. I just hope FW comes out with some TWC models, because I am NOT putting marines on the 45 goblin wolves I am going to have to buy now.

Kaotik wrote:If "Counts As" is equal to being "Taken As" that choice then ya my list is over on troops choices. Could easily remove one of the WGBL, his wolves, and replace the wolves from the other WGBL with some TWC. Would lose one unit but make the other twice as tough. The wolves not counting as scoring is OK with me since at 1500 pts I will be alright with three 10 man units of marines for node taking. Use the wolves/HQ for node denial.

My opinion remains that most good SW armies are going to end up making use of the wolves/twc whether they like the idea of it or not. I just hope FW comes out with some TWC models, because I am NOT putting marines on the 45 goblin wolves I am going to have to buy now.

I am going to nbe using the D&D: Mini's Winter Wolves and Dire Wolves

Anpu42 wrote:

Kaotik wrote:If "Counts As" is equal to being "Taken As" that choice then ya my list is over on troops choices. Could easily remove one of the WGBL, his wolves, and replace the wolves from the other WGBL with some TWC. Would lose one unit but make the other twice as tough. The wolves not counting as scoring is OK with me since at 1500 pts I will be alright with three 10 man units of marines for node taking. Use the wolves/HQ for node denial.

My opinion remains that most good SW armies are going to end up making use of the wolves/twc whether they like the idea of it or not. I just hope FW comes out with some TWC models, because I am NOT putting marines on the 45 goblin wolves I am going to have to buy now.

I am going to nbe using the D&D: Mini's Winter Wolves and Dire Wolves

Have you compared them for size with a SM model? If I am gonna convert them then I am looking to try and find wolves that are slightly smaller than a horse or slightly larger than a lion/tiger in comparison. I was recommended the Hordes models from the Circle of Oboros. They look like they would do the trick as far as the sizing, but would be rather pricey to do up a unit, and the armor on them looks very fantasy and not so much 40k.

Got my very own wolf guard terminators boxed set today. Will post pics of sprues first thing tomorrow morning (about seven hours), unless someone mentions that they're available elsewhere already before then.

Here is a Question:
I know that a model with Mark of the Wulfen can not use "Special Close Combat Weapons", does that mean that he can not use Melta-Bombs?

Since Melta Bombs aren't a C/C weapon models with MotW may use them.

The real issue I have as a marine player is the fact they have cheaper marines with 3 attacks on the charge or 3 attacks on the defense (wolf guard get bolter, cc weapon and bolt pistol) with counter assault. Kind of lame...

Same with the sky claws, same points as assault marines but with 4 attacks on the charge and 3 on the defense. Still hitting on 4+ vs my space marines...

And then the space wolves "devastator squads", 1-5 guys, lame... I need to buy all 5 for a higher expense and cant target two different units.

Am I missing anything?

Where are this armies weaknesses? Sure, they can complete in a long range shoot out, but they dont need to these days. I dont know if my raven guard can compete with these guys. Well find out

ultra vulkan wrote:And then the space wolves "devastator squads", 1-5 guys, lame... I need to buy all 5 for a higher expense and cant target two different units.

Other SM codexes can chose to not buy Heavy Weapons, every LF must buy one except the Leader plus they have no ablative wounds except the Leader.

@ultra vulkan: You are focused on the positives and none of the negatives.

The real issue I have as a marine player is the fact they have cheaper marines with 3 attacks on the charge or 3 attacks on the defense (wolf guard get bolter, cc weapon and bolt pistol) with counter assault. Kind of lame...

1) Cheaper is relative. Marines also get a free sgt with ld9 that doesn't cost them an elite slot. Several free heavy weapon options to supliment the free flamer is also why tacs cost more, especially in conjunction with combat squads and tactics.
2) Counter Attack still requires a ld test. Without a Wolf Guard that is taken at ld8 (so ~75% pass). It is arguable whether combat squads and combat tactics is worse then counter attack and the extra ccw. At best one can say they are different.
3) Wolf Guard do not get bolter/bolt pistol and ccw. Only Grey Hunters do.
4) As has been stated many times: for a rhino or pod unit, you have to sacrifice your 2nd special for a wolf guard and his leadership and assault ability.

Same with the sky claws, same points as assault marines but with 4 attacks on the charge and 3 on the defense. Still hitting on 4+ vs my space marines...

1) They are hit by your marines on 3's.
2) Do not have a wolf guard option.
3) Don't get a free sgt
4) No meltabomb option.
5) Can't take 2 special weapons and can't shoot and charge unless you attach an expensive IC.

And then the space wolves "devastator squads", 1-5 guys, lame... I need to buy all 5 for a higher expense and cant target two different units.

1)Devs can split fire via combat squads and it doesn't require the survival of the sgt.
2)Devs get BS5 for one heavy.
3) Devs can have ablative wounds while long fangs lose shooting effectiveness with every casualty.

Where are this armies weaknesses?

SWs are a close combat focused marine army that isn't stellar at it without a large expenditure of points. They are a solid army with some neat choices to be sure, but you have to look at the list as a whole and what it gives up. I think why most marine players get envious of the list is the more cc oriented goodies fit their playstyle more then the flexible more shooty oriented vanilla marine list. That doesn't make SWs better though.

Thanks for the feedback. I havent had much time to study the SW codex, but when I saw what I did (yes, without fully reading the cons), I was envious. Ill have to spend more time studying the codex... I again havent spent much time researching the cons, but thanks for the listing, its why I ask.

Where are this armies weaknesses?

And we pay nearly double the cost for storm shields...which means you won't see alot of storm shields in a SW army.

Well in fairness Storm Shields are totally undercosted in the SM Book.

I was disappointed that SW got the strongest Anti-Psychic stuff in the game!
But then I was looking back at the 3.5 Chaos Codex and we had the Warp Blade which was comparable to the Runic Force Weapon. In addition to your opponent failing on a 4+, he also took a wound as if from Perils of the Warp!
Hopefully that gets added to the Thousand Sons Codex.
Regardless, they will still go down in a hail of AP3 Bolts!

I finally got an in depth look at this book.

It looks killer at first blush. But I want to see it on the table.

Any body else wish that Canis' wolf and all the four legged wolves they may make in the future looked like the art?

Now those things look vicious. Like wolves but also something alien and threatening.

I really like the ability to put Mark of Wulfen on so many guys.

Gives us a way to use the ones we have. At least a few of em.

The codex is based around expensive HQ's, Its hero hammer plain and simple. Well thats how I will be playing it, 4 hqs maxed out with just the bare min of troops. I will lose all my games but hell my army will look great doing it