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In 1750 lists sw work pretty well, but in the GT format of 1500, sw are very clunky.

It looks like this army really is get your best unit plus character into combat and rip whatever they come across apart.
Basically lord delivery system I.E...

Get Canis plus a large unit of Thunderwolves into combat and win.

This tactic used with the covering fire of long fangs and the all important dog meat shield of Fenrisian Wolves is really good. Accompany them with GH in rhino and you've got a very powerful army. Downside is if you lose the TWC and Canis, you'll probably lose.

I'm not trying to be glib, but there's a reason this army can take 4 HQ's, plus other special characters. It is absolutely intended to be a character delivery codex.

There's a (real-world) military maxim that states that there are two types of units in the army: Infantry, and everything that supports infantry. C:SM is better at that type of build where you have tac squads at the core, and then everything else is taken to support them (devs/preds), punch for them (assault termies), distract from them (HQ's, scouts in a storm), etc.

C: SW is all about Herohammer 40k. Troops are cheap and are designed to accompany/shield characters. Even Wolf Guard are laid out in the codex to be so customizable that in a sense they are side-kick heros. I have well painted SW Preds and a Vindicator that will now sit on the shelf because it's not about that style anymore. It's all about getting your heroes into the enemies face while your Grey Hunters come in from reserve and camp on objectives.

IMHO, if you're building an army with this codex from Troops on up, you're kinda missing the whole point, and you'll end up with an army that just doesn't feel right because it doesn't take advantage of the synergies that are inherit with it.

And it's a major reason I'm glad it's not "just an added page" in an all-in-one Codex: Space Marines omnibus.

(And a major reason I sympathize with long-time Chaos players)

Cheers.

ubermosher wrote:
IMHO, if you're building an army with this codex from Troops on up, you're kinda missing the whole point, and you'll end up with an army that just doesn't feel right because it doesn't take advantage of the synergies that are inherit with it.

Not sure I follow you.

Basically, he's saying that your points should be spent on ubering up your IC and then use cheap troops or synergystic troops to either escort as a meat shield or beat face as an accomplice respectively.

Eh, disagree.

You can get 10 assault Marines in a rhino with two meltaguns for 190 points.

Six Long Fangs with five (!) missile launchers costs 140 points.

And Fenrisian Wolves, fifteen of them, cost something like 120 points. FIFTEEN!

Five rhino squads plus three Long Fang squads plus forty-five WS/S/T 4 Beasts "only" costs you 1730 points. You can upgrade the GH to have MotW for extra killiness and you're still just barely over 1800.

Pick your flavor of HQ with a chunk of Wolf Guard wounds and you've got an army that's absolutely anathema to anything except Raider spam, and even against that you have a decent chance of burying the Terminators in models.

Hero Hammer will do okay with SW, but my god, the cheap stuff is good and vice versa! Who wants to run into 70 MEQs with 45 T4 Kroot???

Okay, I thought he was disputing the value of the Grey Hunters. Got it now.

sourclams wrote:Eh, disagree.

You can get 10 assault Marines in a rhino with two meltaguns for 190 points.

Six Long Fangs with five (!) missile launchers costs 140 points.

And Fenrisian Wolves, fifteen of them, cost something like 120 points. FIFTEEN!

Five rhino squads plus three Long Fang squads plus forty-five WS/S/T 4 Beasts "only" costs you 1730 points. You can upgrade the GH to have MotW for extra killiness and you're still just barely over 1800.

Pick your flavor of HQ with a chunk of Wolf Guard wounds and you've got an army that's absolutely anathema to anything except Raider spam, and even against that you have a decent chance of burying the Terminators in models.

Hero Hammer will do okay with SW, but my god, the cheap stuff is good and vice versa! Who wants to run into 70 MEQs with 45 T4 Kroot???

I agree, especially about the ML packing LF. That seams like a lot of transport pain that you can rain down. Plus you can put your Heroes on a TW and have him join the wolf packs. My thoughts right now are Canis and a RP on Wolf (for the 5+ cover save) who will each lead a wolf pack. For now, I plan on subbing hormies for wolves...I love Irony

Here's a question: does Canis give wolves I5? If not, can you use a lord with Saga of the Wolfkin alongside him to give wolves both LD8 and I5, or would it be one bonus or the other? If it's the latter, it sounds like it might be best to go without Canis. That I5 is pretty dang sweet, and if you have characters at the helm, the leadership isn't such a big deal. 45 wolves is still a whole crapload anyway.

I am seriously considering starting this army when it comes out. I like the models and fluff. No other reason. I think it would be cool to have a "snow" themed army.

I'm not askin for exact points cost here, just about how these two thing would compaired in cost;

From the prevous Space Marine book, a 6 man squad, two special weapons, a vet serge with powerfist, in a razorback.

Vs

A five man Grey Hunter squad, one special, one plasma pistol, plus an attached Wolf Guard (for six man total unit size) with powerfist and plasma pistol in a razorback.

Termi sprue pics up on Warseer http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148234

The SW codex has always been about uber tought HQ's, Its what we SW players love. I am glad they kept that theme. Although I am unhappy that our rune and wolf priest went down to I4, that sucks

From the prevous Space Marine book, a 6 man squad, two special weapons, a vet serge with powerfist, in a razorback.

Vs

A five man Grey Hunter squad, one special, one plasma pistol, plus an attached Wolf Guard (for six man total unit size) with powerfist and plasma pistol in a razorback.

That greyhunter squad (w/ flamer, others aren't free) will cost 183 from memory (100% sure though). The old codex squad is 195 before any special weapons IIRC.

I'd skip plasma pistol on the wolf guard though. Combi bolter of some sort is cheaper and won't kill your fist guy (and PP doesn't add an attack to the fist so is not worth it imho).

5 man GK with flamer in Bolterback with WG with fist and combi melta (because who the hell takes plas pistols anymore):

153 pts

I agree 15 points for a plas pistol on a GH squad just doesn't cut it for me. Back in 3rd and 4rth, when you could rapid fire them (and iirc it was 5 pts cheaper), it was OK. Same goes for sergeants - not worth the points cost IMO.

If that's the case people are gona have a ton of plasma pistols lieing around si ce that wolf pack box comes with six of em. I wonder how many combies I've got around here.

Also... Boo for the new termie weapons all being standard left handed powerfists! I was hopi g for at least one o e the right side to do a serge with a pair of em.

See, now you are just being silly. Don't you know that all SM are right-handed?

[/SARCASM]

Correction made to the OP.

Not as much missed as I thought.

After much reading - I'm not impressed with SW for only one reason - lack of numbers in 1500 points.

Aduro wrote:If that's the case people are gona have a ton of plasma pistols lieing around si ce that wolf pack box comes with six of em. I wonder how many combies I've got around here.

Also... Boo for the new termie weapons all being standard left handed powerfists! I was hopi g for at least one o e the right side to do a serge with a pair of em.

Just get rid of the claws on one of the wolf claws, I had one beak off once and now my DA Captian looks like he has bess knucles.

for all those chaos players who plan on using the puppies' new codex as their own, the new dawn of war II pic officially announcing the playable chaos faction is a great replacement for the cover. just print it out and glue on the front!

After seeing the codex I have to say GW did a good job on creating a unique way of playing marines. The codex has its weak points. Such as terminators... over priced. The SW troops all seem to be great choices, as are fenresian wolves. I think the approach of making it a very character centric army was a good approach. Lone Wolf is another interesting unit a bit of a steal, but its balanced by the fact that you want him to die.

My guess is that we'll see most successful armies spamming troops to surround a few really beefed up characters.

MilkmanAl wrote:Here's a question: does Canis give wolves I5? If not, can you use a lord with Saga of the Wolfkin alongside him to give wolves both LD8 and I5, or would it be one bonus or the other? If it's the latter, it sounds like it might be best to go without Canis. That I5 is pretty dang sweet, and if you have characters at the helm, the leadership isn't such a big deal. 45 wolves is still a whole crapload anyway.

Canis has the saga of the wolfkin. He also allows morale re-rerolls within 12 inches of him for wolves.

I also vaguely remember some nebulous rule about Wolf packs lead by "Marines" getting ATSKNF, and I'm pretty sure he counts.

I'm personally putting Wolf Guard (the little HQ's) on horsies and making them join mobs of Fenrisians.

Also Thunderwolves near Fenrisians give more Leadership stuff. It's pretty synergistic to have mounted characters and mounted units run with your wolf packs.

And yes, 45 wolves is still a lot if you only blow your FA slots on them, ask any 13th company player.

After much reading - I'm not impressed with SW for only one reason - lack of numbers in 1500 points.

People keep saying this and it boggles my mind. SWs no longer have to be top heavy in HQ. They are better off as far as numbers then ever before. Not any worse then any other MEq codex and in some ways better. Very strange this keeps coming up.

Yes they can take 4 HQs. That is great for them at 2k points where you can afford to splurge. At 1500 take all 4 at your own risk.

Such as terminators... over priced

Kind of. If you want to reproduce marine assault squads, yeah. They are 3 points more then chaos terminators but have ATSKNF and counterattack (worth 3 points and losing teleport for drop pods).

You can make a relatively cheap, effective unit that is able to deal with several situations. Not something you can do with assault terminators and can't do as cheaply with tactical terminators. Also the frost blade and wolf claws add a dimension you don't get with the other terminators (namely stronger in close combat and still retain shooting options). Not saying they are better then SM terminators, just different.

EDIT -- csm cost mistake, always seem em with combi-weapons

Defiler wrote:I'm personally putting Wolf Guard (the little HQ's) on horsies and making them join mobs of Fenrisians.

Just wanted to let you know, i'm pretty sure you can't actually mount Wolf guard onto Thunderwolves.

Also wanted to comment on the idea that people think SW will be outnumbered at 1500 points? Really? Grey hunters squad in a rhino would be around 200 points? So you could run 4 comfortably, 1-2 hqs round 150 each, and still have 400 points to put in 2 long fang squads for another 200 points and still have 200 odd points or more depending on hqs to play with. And at that point your field 52 marines, and still have parts of your list to write.

I think people are only looking at one style for space wolves, they could be a seriously elite army, where everything is overloaded with equipment, or they could be a similar style to herohammer, or they could be quite generic but with a different play style to regular marines.

Winter wrote:

Defiler wrote:I'm personally putting Wolf Guard (the little HQ's) on horsies and making them join mobs of Fenrisians.

Just wanted to let you know, i'm pretty sure you can't actually mount Wolf guard onto Thunderwolves.

This would truly suck since I was looking forward to my own personal nob biker unit. Confirmation?

I also would really like to know why(other than the obvious selling of more GH)the Bloodclaws got completely hosed in this edition?
Let's see...they cost more each now, lost 2/3 of their spec weps, and cannot shoot AND charge without a leader. For all these negative changes yathink maybe they would have at least given them WS4, but instead they get 0 positive changes and basically shelved as a competitive unit. I was truly hoping for MORE choices in troops when the new codex came out. Instead they added Fenrisian wolves which I will admit are going to be pretty effective, but I would not have taken them at the cost of trashing a unit that I considered the core of the SW experience.

Kaotik wrote:

Winter wrote:

Defiler wrote:I'm personally putting Wolf Guard (the little HQ's) on horsies and making them join mobs of Fenrisians.

Just wanted to let you know, i'm pretty sure you can't actually mount Wolf guard onto Thunderwolves.

This would truly suck since I was looking forward to my own personal nob biker unit. Confirmation?

I also would really like to know why(other than the obvious selling of more GH)the Bloodclaws got completely hosed in this edition?
Let's see...they cost more each now, lost 2/3 of their spec weps, and cannot shoot AND charge without a leader. For all these negative changes yathink maybe they would have at least given them WS4, but instead they get 0 positive changes and basically shelved as a competitive unit. I was truly hoping for MORE choices in troops when the new codex came out. Instead they added Fenrisian wolves which I will admit are going to be pretty effective, but I would not have taken them at the cost of trashing a unit that I considered the core of the SW experience.

It's not that Blood Claws won't be effective, it's that you'll have to add things to the unit to make it so. Adding a Wolf Priest to give them Prefered Enemy and an LRC to get them into assault makes them devastating. The obvious drawback is the amount of points that you sink in to one unit. But being able to break a 30-strong Ork mob in one assault phase is a pretty nice thing to have.

@Kaotik

WG cannot have Thunderwjolves as mounts.

Damned unfortunate as I had the same idea too.

Can lone wolves get em?

No.

Boo.