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Andilus Greatsword wrote:

LucasLAD wrote:am I the only one who sees a potential rules lawyer abuse? I'm praying that this isn't quoted verbatim because "The Last Laugh" rule as written here doesn't stipulate whether the killer has to be in CC or not:

"Lukas the Trickster - WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld8 Sv3+
Blood Claw upgrade. Plasma Pistol, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Wolf Claw.
Pelt of the Doppegangrel - Forces the enemy to re-roll successful to-hit rolls.
Rebellious - Causes his Squad to be capped at his Ld8 regardless of other upgrades.
The Last Laugh - On his death Lukas and the model that killed him are removed then both players roll a D6. If the SW player rolls equal to or higher than their opponent, all models within Base to Base contact with Lukas (friend or foe) are removed. "

Read the bold and pray to whatever god you want that this is just a misquote on the part of the OP

Wow, that's actually really stupid, I'll admit. But it doesn't affect vehicles, right?

RAW why wouldn't it? Vehicles are models after all. Shoot with a Vindicator, I win, Vindicator disappears like a bad scripting error.

I officially don't like Lukas now, no matter how useful he is. He does throw a wrench into things were your opponent is trying his hardest NOT to kill the bastard though.

They'll be a rules clarification on the gw site eventually. As it stands his rules are broken and need fixing by adding a couple of sentences.

Again, after further reading, there is a fair amount of this book that needs fixing. I think the drop pod capacity is incorrect as is the afore mentioned stasis bomb rules for lukas.
There's also a lot of clarification needed for the "line of death" psychic power.

Yeah, other than those 2 issues, the Codex is awesome. I play for fun, and I like it when my opponent is having fun as well, so I'm going to try to avoid using those crazy options.

If they are indeed broken as you say, then you've got to wonder how the rule managed to make it so far as it is before getting edited.

The book has not come out yet and peopl are finiding problems is there a actual proof reader at GW seriously?

What is written is that Lukas and the killing model are removed THEN you dice off and then that will determine if any additional models are removed.

an unstoppable unit insta killer:

Nightbringer no problem
Monolith dead
Eternal warrior? Negative you're toast


as for why this got past editing? It's GW.....Valkyrie anyone?

Wow- this is going to be fun to play. So long as it doesn't herald a system-wide return to Herohammer, one codex that specializes in super-characters is a great idea. They will be a blast to play against, if perhaps a bit annoying in one-offs where they can tailor to defeat any army you bring against them.

Also, I think we have found the new flavor of counts-as. A World Eaters army using these rules could be both thematic and effective. Thunderwolves into Crushers, Kharn the Counts-As-Whatever, Blood Claw 'Zerkers, etc. You probably won't even have to adapt many models. Same goes for Black Legion, Blood Angels, etc. ad nauseum.

I'm going to do the codex as a counts as for my SM army no doubt. Not because I think it's more powerful, just because it fits my army style more. I've had 3 LC PA sergeants on the shelf since the latest marine codex and now they are back! WOOT!

Oh and the idea of World Eaters counts as is gonna be sweet when someone finally makes an army up of them!

ws3 berzerkers no thanks. My current berzerker army does just fine.(with 2 lash princes)

Some Corrections on Arjac:
-His save is 2+
-He has Grimnar's Champion Sp rule that allows him to reroll to hit in CC


Automatically Appended Next Post:

skkipper wrote:ws3 berzerkers no thanks. My current berzerker army does just fine.(with 2 lash princes)

Now just make them about half the points and you have blood claws.

EDIT: Sorry for multiple edits. The rules for Lukas are exacly as descibed above.

blood claws hit on three and wound on threes on the charge versus meq? I don't think so.
lets just go with half cost

60 attacks 30 hits 15 wounds 5 dead

30 attacks 20 hits 13 wounds 4 dead

the difference those 4 don't get the swings back and I still have 3 attacks next round and blood claws have 2


berzerkers are better

I think what a LOT of people are missing about Lukas is that he is an Upgrade character and not an independant character, so you could allocate wounds to him as you please....

Oh, my blood claws got charged by abbbbabadobabdbon? not in base contact with Lukas? oh well, you did how many wounds? well the first one is on Lukas..... Oh look at that, abbbbabadobabdon is gone.

skkipper wrote:blood claws hit on three and wound on threes on the charge versus meq? I don't think so.
lets just go with half cost

60 attacks 30 hits 15 wounds 5 dead

30 attacks 20 hits 13 wounds 4 dead

the difference those 4 don't get the swings back and I still have 3 attacks next round and blood claws have 2


berzerkers are better

Incorrect. Counter-Charge.

was going to say counterattack as well.


Even if your zerkers are godly - its just one unit choice versus a mass selection of CC beasts in the SW aresenal yeah?.

The weakness of wolves is and has always been their 12' range. Other than vehicles and long fangs only cyclones shoot over 24.

They will have to take the fight to you, and any GH or BC pack that sits back to claim objectives can't contribute much to combat. Also, without 2-3 PF in the packs the close combat menace is reduced. Note, they lost gate and have no sternguard equivalent, so CC will be the common method for dealing with MC.

SWs will be taking high casualties and don't have cheap combat squads to hold rear objectives. I think after some time most players will find that SWs are not broken at all, especially after a few last minute objective grabs with outflanking units.

Blood claws >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zerkers.

More attacks and cheaper.

I didn't see Arjak's 2+ save or the other rule. I wasn't all that interested in WG TBH, but I'll have a look tomorrow for it before I put it in.

I really really like this army. I'm going to sell off all my Tau and start collecting SW. Not just for the OTT - which it is, but because I want to collect my first ever army all over again and because I love Vikings.

Why is everyone so hyped about blood claws?
I've got a unit that's better than blood claws. It's called assault marines. They get increased WS and BS, and instead of one additional attack on the charge... they get one additional attack on the charge that hits at initiative infinity and has AP 5. It's called a bolt pistol.

Durandal wrote:
They will have to take the fight to you, and any GH or BC pack that sits back to claim objectives can't contribute much to combat. Also, without 2-3 PF in the packs the close combat menace is reduced. Note, they lost gate and have no sternguard equivalent, so CC will be the common method for dealing with MC.

We never had Gate.

Durandal wrote:
SWs will be taking high casualties and don't have cheap combat squads to hold rear objectives. I think after some time most players will find that SWs are not broken at all, especially after a few last minute objective grabs with outflanking units.

QFT.

currently I run a barebones, min sized unupgraded unit of Grey Hunters inside a vehicle (Rhino, Razorback, Land Raider Godhammer) just to capture backfield objectives. If my opponent realizes (in an objctive game, obviously) that the key to my victory is contesting their objectives with my army, and holding just one with that unit, I usually end up losing. Not many people think that a 102 point unit with just 6 grey hunters that dont even have boltguns is worth their time though.

ph34r wrote:Why is everyone so hyped about blood claws?
I've got a unit that's better than blood claws. It's called assault marines. They get increased WS and BS, and instead of one additional attack on the charge... they get one additional attack on the charge that hits at initiative infinity and has AP 5. It's called a bolt pistol.

Ill tell you why blood claws with jump packs are better. More attacks, large squad size, and dirt cheap. Admittedly, they're not the best, and grey hunters are SO much better, but blood claws are still pretty good.

Let's not forget the evil things that Slaanesh-aligned units will do at I5 to the I4 Space Wolves, or Plague Marines destroying Blood Claws because Blight Grenades cancel out charge bonuses, or heck, a Lord of Slaanesh using a Blissgiver to maul Space Wolf characters. Heck, I'd love to see a unit of Blood Claws run into Lucius: After he thins them out a bit they'd get A3 on the charge, 5+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and then Sv3+ or Iv5+ to save with each one of those successful saves killing another Blood Claw. Lucius may not survive, but the sheer mutual destruction would be hilarious.

ph34r wrote:Why is everyone so hyped about blood claws?
I've got a unit that's better than blood claws. It's called assault marines. They get increased WS and BS, and instead of one additional attack on the charge... they get one additional attack on the charge that hits at initiative infinity and has AP 5. It's called a bolt pistol.

I dont know, in the current 'dex Blood Claws are pretty damn good, in the new 'dex Grey Hunters overshadow them IMO.

Except none of those things can be taken in the Space Wolf 'Dex.

So Space Wolf Players get excited about Blood Claws.

The more I look at the list posted, the more I see things to exploit. The low WS of Blood Claws, for example. Or the fact that they don't appear to have combat squads. Small things, almost invisible, yet significant.

Blood Claws and Grey Hunters can have a Power Fist, for what, one attack? Two on the charge? I wonder what they'll be charged for it.

Blood Claws only getting a second special weapon at 15? It's free, but you'll need those extra points for a Crusader to tote them around!

Anyone know what the capacity of a Space Wolf Rhino is? If it's ten, like I think the Drop Pod is, then you won't be able to fit a Wolf Guard and a second special weapon into the same Rhino-borne squad.

I think we'll see what happened with the Vanguard, but on a grand-scale. At first people will be blown away by the possibilities, then they'll realize just how hard those possibilities are to pull off when you're dealing with a points-cap, and finally we'll be left with a small rump of fanatical Space Wolf players determined to make it work or die trying.

In fact, I offer a reward to the first player that publishes a battle report, with pictures mind you, where Logan Grimnar gets Spawned by a Gift of Chaos.

Blood claws are good - but grey hunters = where all the super beneifts are at.

Lone Wolves are freakin insain. Also, to anyone that thinks this will be CRAZY OVERPOWER DUDE, try and build a good deathwing army. It's hard as HELL to include what you want when everything costs 250 points for the most part and that's not even meched up.

Try this disguisting combo for Lone Wolves:

Terminator Armor; Storm Shield; Chainfist.

HOLY S%*$! 2+ / 3+ FNP Eternal Warrior with 2 wounds and a Chainfist. For 85 points. Oh, don't forget hes got Saga they got Beastslayer top so uhh your MC's and Walkers and anything T5+ are screwed. Oh yeah, he can also board a LR if you have one handy.

In steleks words: "This is the Dreadnought you always wanted, but were afraid to ask Santa for."

So for 170 points for two? Yes I will take them! For more fun add Wolves to make sure that he will be able to avoid those pesky AP denying shots!

The SW landraider carries only 10 models, so it is not the same as the SM one. I was confused by that when I looked at the book.

Interesting: so both the Phobos Pattern Land Raider and the Drop Pod only carry 10 models each?

I suppose now would be the time to make sarky comments about them buying second-hand Chaos merchandise where the jump-seats have been torns out to make room for a chain-sword rack.

Nurglitch wrote:Let's not forget the evil things that Slaanesh-aligned units will do at I5 to the I4 Space Wolves, or Plague Marines destroying Blood Claws because Blight Grenades cancel out charge bonuses, or heck, a Lord of Slaanesh using a Blissgiver to maul Space Wolf characters. Heck, I'd love to see a unit of Blood Claws run into Lucius: After he thins them out a bit they'd get A3 on the charge, 5+ to hit, 4+ to wound, and then Sv3+ or Iv5+ to save with each one of those successful saves killing another Blood Claw. Lucius may not survive, but the sheer mutual destruction would be hilarious.

Not each of those saves. Half of those saves [it's a S4 hit].

And sure. Lucius kills.... maybe half the unit in his death throes. Ok.... what can't do that? A squad of plaguemarines, a squad of CSM, a squad of banshees, pretty much a unit of anything that either shot them on their way in, or is also a combat-based unit and fought them in hth, would probably do about the same thing - reduce them by half, on a bad day [and win on a good one]. Lucius has FOUR, count them FOUR attacks AFTER his bonus for extra ccw. That's the same as a terminator aspiring champion, or a basic chaos lord, with 2x ccw. Same as Abaddon [who'll of course end up with 6+ after his roll, provided he doesn't STAB HIMSELF IN THE FACE]. Also, his WS of 7 actually lessens the blow to the blood claws, since they hit him less. Ugh, it sickens me whenever someone thinks about using the Lucius "bomb". Just buy a lash prince [for cheaper], back out of 24" of the rune priest that will guaranteed be in every army, lash the blood claws into a tight space and battle cannon them with defilers. More points, but still alive and kills more.

God, I've just got to do the math. 15 BCs, charging. that's what, 60 attacks? [only ones in btb with him lose the attack from the whip, so I won't even count it] 20 hit, 10 wound. Lucius passes 7 and fails 3 saves. He's now dead, and does 7 S4 hits to the enemy, which wound on 4+. After he's killed MAYBE 2 [4 attacks, 3 to hit, 4 to wound]. Wow, it's even worse than I thought. The daemon prince actually hands-down fights them better than Lucius, with higher S, same I, same WS, but higher T. He even stands a decent chance to win or tie the combat.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:Interesting: so both the Phobos Pattern Land Raider and the Drop Pod only carry 10 models each?

I suppose now would be the time to make sarky comments about them buying second-hand Chaos merchandise where the jump-seats have been torns out to make room for a chain-sword rack.

It's for all those meltaguns for the grey hunters. Since they're half the cost of CSM ones and/or FREE.

malfred wrote:Except none of those things can be taken in the Space Wolf 'Dex.

So Space Wolf Players get excited about Blood Claws.

Right, everyone is excited about blood claws and blood claw jump pack troopers, but they are just the same as assault marines just swapping bolt pistol attack for additional charge attack if you are looking at blood claw jump packers, and they are the same as grey hunters if you look at non-jump packers. It's like people look at the +2 and think "holy crap" while forgetting that they lose out on the bolt pistol shot due to the "can't shoot if you can charge" rule.