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Guitardian wrote:Y'know, there's two styles of 40k, and both are 'viable' tactically in my opinion.

On one extreme you have things like Eldar, DE, Tau, marine drop-pod armies or rhino rush armies, who are very 'precise' armies, often outnumbered but maneuvering superiority to make up for it. If you do everything perfectly, dice don't even need to be on your side so much, but that means you have to do everything perfectly (which never really happens, so you still need the dice gods to cut you some slack from time to time).

On the other side are things like Da Green Tide, Nidzilla, space wolves 'Loganwing' and new BA assault spam, balanced vanilla marines, balanced CSM, crons, lascannon salute IG etc... where you either have enough numbers or good enough saves (or both) to get away with just kind of stamping around the board and not caring if you get shot at. This approach doesn't have nearly the same level of prioritizing targets and minimizing return. It relies on LOTS of DICE.

When I used to play IG, I knew my lasguns sucked, but I also knew that if I roll enough of them, sooner or later that save will come up a 1. When I played SM I knew I could just sit mid board and own the place and occasionally fail a save or whatever but still not worry about random bolter guy going down just so long as the squad ML was still pumping it out.

When I hit Eldar, I realized that maneuver was the only thing that could save me from being shot to bits, and started adjusting my play style to the hit-n-run way that works for them.

SO, what play style are CSM? They have fast attack, heavy support, elite, and troops more or less on the level of the SMurfs, so what's the problem. You have power armor and ridiculous psykers. That should be a pretty good hint about how you should use them 'competatively'. They are not so much a 'maneuver' army as a 'chug my way foreward and destroy whatever doesn't get out of the way' army, like Orks or SW. Just my opinion.

You do realize... that foot-slogging marine lists don't work? You do realize you basically said "On one extreme, there are good lists. On the other extreme, there are bad lists (that can only win through luck)." 5th edition is DOMINATED by mech, and is dominated by mobility. Any army that lacks mobility (AKA is foot-slogging) is going to have a hard time against competitive lists.

Thats why CSM have to Mech up.

No matter which incarnation they come in.

I'm one of those players that don't agree with the CSM are no good crowd. They are a very powerful army that need to be used with a bit of finesse right now.

I seriously think an Eldar style, Hit and Run style of play will suit them. They are definate ly not an attrition style force like other MEQ.

I'd say that they're moreso a high-risk, high-reward army, like a less squishy version of the Ork army.

Nurglitch wrote:I'd say that they're moreso a high-risk, high-reward army, like a less squishy version of the Ork army.

Chaos???

Yeah, I can agree to that.

It's just an MEQ army that plays differently to all other MEQ.

Sure you could make it into an Loyalist MEQ army with the dex, but what is the point when you have Plague Marines and Noise Marines???

Nurglitch wrote:I'd say that they're moreso a high-risk, high-reward army, like a less squishy version of the Ork army.

QFT. Thats a very accurate description of how i feel playing CSM.

I've just read through this massive thread and from what I can gather most people are complaining about CSM only having one good build - Lash/PM/OBL.

I totally disagree with this.

In fact, I'm betting that with a bit of effort anyone could make a list that could bring CSM back to the front of the pecking order.

So the top armies atm are SW and IG mech, possibly BA and I know Mechdar are very powerful too. We could also throw in Vulkan or Pedro lists too as there are an abundance of these at tournies.

Let's look at CSM's strengths:

Plague Marines are an obvious choice. They can hold their own and are one of the best objective holders in the game.

Noise Marines are good at all ranges. YES... ALL!!! The name of the game, other than mechanised, is Cover. Cover saves are what troops usually take when not in a transport. How do CSM get around this??? MASS SATURATION OF FIREPOWER!!! Which Noise Marines do better at, than any other troops unit in the game - fact!!!

Basic CSM. Wah wah wah, Grey Hunters are overpowered wah wah wah. NEWSFLASH - Aside from Counter Attack, we get similar options and only take one foc slot (the optimum GH squad takes two - one for the GH, one for the WG). And instead of having Counter Attack, we get the option, at army construction, to give our guys one of the following:

+1 A.
+1 T.
+1 I.
A 5+ INV save.

If I had the choice between a CSM squad and GH squad, I know which one I would take. Oh did I mention that we can have TWENTY guys in a squad???

Chaos Lords.
What happened to people taking an old fashioned approach to character selection??? Chaos Lords are still good choices. They may not have the options that the SW Lord, but SW Lords have to pay through the nose for what they get. We get Daemon Weapons, which IMO, are really overpowered.

The Khorne one is a bit of a suicide option, but how many other IC can chug out 8-16 Power weapon attacks???

The Nurgle one butchers single wound, IC and MC without discrimination.

The Tzeentch one is ranged.

The Slaanesh one can kill anything it wounds unless it has EW.

Oh but if you roll a one, Wah Wah Wah!!! Quit moaning, it's a 1 in 6 chance and you get an INV save against it.

Personally, I'd never take the Khorne one, but all the others are freekin awesome.

Alleged Weaknesses:

No anti psyker help??? So what!!! Concentrate on our strengths, this is a minor problem.

Lack of unit compatibility??? I don't believe so. CSM have to operate like Mechdar nowadays. Know your army and learn when to commit. Army building skills are a factor here too. If OBL don't cut it anymore use summit else - Laspreds are pretty good at opening transports up and are quite tough too. So are Vindicators.

Think of it this way:

Noise Marines in Rhino are our DA in Serpents.
Vindicators or Laspreds are our Prisms.
DP are our Avatars and some argue are actually better.
OBL, while many won't see the similarities, are a lot like Fire Dragons. They take care of what they need to and then usually die a heroes death.
Plague Marines are our Wraithguard, but are better in every single way.

As a veteran CSM player (since 2nd Ed), the best advice I can give to anyone is "Think Eldar".

@Radiohazard:

Plagues: agreed.
Noise Marines: Yes, bucket o’ dice is nice, but the problem is that they are expensive for what you get and are essentially a glass cannon…and have to be un-meched to contribute maximum output.
Basic CSM: having the option for a 20 man squad is moot.
As for the icon system, feth that I rather have Grey Hunters.

Chaos Lords: DW are not overpowered…your definition must be very loose.
Bloodfeeder: whoop-di-do…still only str 4 and a high likelihood of doing nothing…
Plaguebringer: actually decent, but still on the pricey side, it’s essentially 60 points.
Shooty DW: flexible, but I have my doubts as to how useful it is on a constant basis.
Blissgiver: With the new Tyranids it gets a bit more milage, but in most cases it’s quite useless (as an upgrade over the normal DW).
Normal DW: the +1 Str is decent, but not for the points used to get it.

It’s not just a 1/6 to get a wound to take a save. You lose ALL combat attacks you would have had without it…that’s 3 basic attacks you have lost, including any charge bonus.
Not only are you not contributing to the fight you have the possibility of helping the opponent’s combat resolution scores.

No-Anti Psycher

It’s not a minor problem with a giant shift to more clutch powers…. Giving enemies free reign over good damage dealing or utility spells (Tyranid FNP, Fortune, Doom, JoTWW, Lash(lol), Living Lightning, Str 10 uber sword, Mephy in general, Double Gifting Spam, blocking a MEQ BBQ from Wind of Chaos, etc. etc. etc.)
I agree, concentrate on strengths, but I think it is unwise to call it a minor problem… it’s a big issue that you have to take into consideration and not just blow it off.

Lack of unit compatibility???

It’s not about knowing when to commit. The CSM don’t have that luxury because the army doesn’t move as fast as the Eldar and don’t have the same kind of trap laying. They need to engage early as their model count is most likely lower and need to play defensively at the same time as they are a combat army that relies on non-combat ramped transports.

Noise Marines in Rhino are our DA in Serpents.

I understand that they are suppost to fill a similar role, but the operational limits of the Rhino and Serpents are so different I think it’s laughable.

Vindicators or Laspreds are our Prisms.

No. Prisms are there to do anti-horde control…Neither Vindis or Laspreds view that role as primary or secondary.
The single Focused shot is too far different to the 3 you get from laspreds or the better damage you could get from the vindi.

DP are our Avatars and some argue are actually better.

DP’s are ‘better’ because they can fly, but offer no force multipliers…

OBL, while many won't see the similarities, are a lot like Fire Dragons. They take care of what they need to and then usually die a heroes death.

…no.

Plague Marines are our Wraithguard, but are better in every single way.

I’m gonna say “no” here as well due to the oversimplication.

I respect your opinions dude, but let's look at your post:

First off, 1/6 is a risk I'd be willing to take. The problems you wrote are just risks. You have to put in to get out. Totally agree with you on Plaguebringer, but it isn't pricey for what it does. Blissgiver is a moot point as it is still only STR 4. I have a Tzeentch based CSM army and their DW is an awesome bit of kit - tried and tested.

I agree on the Noise Marines, but they are good for their points. I know a veteran CSM player like myself, who plays Noise Marines nearly exclusively and he uses them exactly like DA. The problem he has is that the Rhino hasn't got a weapon set up of defense like a Serpent, but then again it is nearly 100 pts cheaper.

How can you say that the Vindicator's primary or secondary role isn't to clear Hordes??? It's a Pie Template at STR 10!!!

In regards to the FD OBL comparison, it maybe the way I play FD that forms my opinion here. My FD destroy a tank (usually a LR) and then die the next turn. Same thing happens to my OBL. End of the day it's pts earned back.

With the exception of their weapons, PMs have a similar role to Wraithguard. Although only one unit of WG can hold an obj, PMs do a similar thing, but only better.

radiohazard wrote:
How can you say that the Vindicator's primary or secondary role isn't to clear Hordes??? It's a Pie Template at STR 10!!!

You could probably make the case for anti-horde duty as a secondary role, but a Vindicator is certainly not what I'd consider 'good' at anti horde--and I play three in my BA list, so I don't hate the Vindicator, it simply needs a list that it works well in (mass AV13, mass vehicles to cover side shots, extra speed to compensate for short range). The CSM Vindie almost never has a shot on its first turn due to short range/not Fast and it will almost always be the only vehicle[s] above AV11 on the table, meaning your opponent has real easy target selection.

Str 10/AP2 is largely wasted on hordes as well. Str5-6 Ap5 that ignores cover at a longer range will likely kill far more models.

In regards to the FD OBL comparison, it maybe the way I play FD that forms my opinion here. My FD destroy a tank (usually a LR) and then die the next turn. Same thing happens to my OBL. End of the day it's pts earned back.

With the exception of their weapons, PMs have a similar role to Wraithguard. Although only one unit of WG can hold an obj, PMs do a similar thing, but only better.

I think it's humorous that within 3 posts of setting out to 'build a better CSM army', we're back to Plague Marines and Oblits.

Not that my opinion means much but I will put it out there:

The CSM dex sure seems like a top tier codex with a few lists, but it is heinously boring and unimaginative compared to recent codecies.

sourclams wrote:

I think it's humorous that within 3 posts of setting out to 'build a better CSM army', we're back to Plague Marines and Oblits.

Use what works? I dont see what the problem with this is. Because it works somebody considers it cheesy, which is ridiculous. If this is the case i consider the blood angels codex cheesy and therefore i can pass judgement that anyone who plays blood angels is just a cheesy player who wants to win at all costs. I also consider all widely used units from any codex cheesy so the only way to be a "legit" player is to build an army from the units that arent good. This does commit slippery slope fallacy but the point remains. Just because a unit is good or widely used doesnt make it cheesy.

I think it's humorous that within 3 posts of setting out to 'build a better CSM army', we're back to Plague Marines and Oblits.

I meant in regards to the usual Lash/PM/OBL lists.

PMs are the best troops choice in the CSM dex and you would be a fool not to use them in a competitive context.

OBL, I feel are overrated. They may bring utility, but the options they bring are not that great for the points you pay. Most Lash lists use upto 6 OBL. If I were to use them, I would only use one unit of 2 and use them as a suicide squad onto a key enemy unit - LR variants come to mind here.

Don't get me started on Lash. The Lash list does not work in the current meta. It seems that the only people that are still using it are the ones that rely on it to win games. Its a nice effect, but with all the anti-psyker flying about, it's not a good option to include and the points spent on another unit would go further.

Just my two cents.

Lash is still good. A lot of you are getting hung up on this "5th is mech, lash has no effect on vehicles, lash is bad" mentality. I would have to beg to differ.

As a old schook 40k player and long-time Chaos fan, I worry very little about mechanized units. In high points games I have 3 squads of 3 highly effective can-openers, I have 2 mc's for emergency enemy extraction, and I have powerfists to use in a pinch.

My plague squads have 2 x melta and they dare you to move your vehicle within 11.9" of them. Any list, or army-specific tactic MUST evolve with the release of new codices.

My lash list is far less in-your-face now, and since the release of the 'nids has undergone a few major revisions to give me the ability to win witout using lash at all on a consistant basis. BA did nothing to me, as my revisions for SW work fine with BA as well.

Anyone can build a list, and anyone can build an anti-that list list. It is all avout the evolution of the list as it is tweaked to answer shorcomings that new codices reveal.

I am 33-4-2 with my 2500 lash list, and it is working very well against nids and sw/ba right now. Eldar are giving me some headaches, but I am betting on not seeing them at all in round 1.

you would be a fool not to use them in a competitive context.

As much as I love plague marines, I don't agree with this statement.
The cost effective choice are the Joe CSMs...
Between the two, it depends on local meta which one pulls ahead as the 'back bone' of most competitive lists.

PM's are tougher but lower model count as suffer to mass special weapon metas.
CSM are less tougher, but more models, but suffer to the mass small arms metas.

___________________________

Fire Dragons get out and die and make up their points.
Oblits do not fall into that category.
I don't know what you are doing, but my oblits are perfectly able to last the whole game while taking fire and wrecking stuff other than vehicles.

In addition, you get 5 dragons for the price of one oblit....Dragons are cost effective in the suicide role, Oblits are not... hell it's an elite choice vs. a hvy choice...the hvy choices are so much more important to chaos thant he elites, while Eldar can do MSU rather well and don't care too much about elite choices.

Lash is only 25 points total...and like I said, I've seen events where Lash lists are still around.
Did you not read my post?
Simple logic: whether or not you have lash, you will be focusing the resources of your army to eject passengers...so the 'go mech' line isn't as stong as you'd think it to be. In addition, if one is not going for the 205 DP or the T6 DP, the lash prince or sorc is so painfully cheap, at 1850+ the CSM can afford the price tag for something that is so devestating.

The number of times it can be used is lessoneed true, but it doesn't change the role and the utility it brings.

I mean... people still use Power Fists after the price increase and the attack nerf... people still use it because the role has not changed and the utility it brings.

As for the vindi's role: it is anti-heavy infantry. Else, what Sourclams has said.

My 7 Cents...(I blame inflation )

I don't know what you're smoking but elites are the crucial part of a good Eldar army. Only 3 slots, and they are our most effective specialty infantry. To put it in perspective, you get 5 dragons for the price of 1 Oblit, and they are suicide mission guys... but you also have to buy their delivery system. Eldar don't have the option to take a transport for less than 100 points. Sorry no rhinos just really expensive hover tanks. So it's a difficult comparison to make.

What other elites are used besides Fire Dragons?
Harles, Shees, Scorps, WG don't pull their weight.
My meaning was that there is little competition for the Elite choices.

The Transport is more exensive, but you get:
Better Gun, Better Movement, Better Durability, Better Occupancy...it makes sense it costs more.

They offer target/armor saturatio, can play the reserves game, etc.

It's a much stronger platform for the Dragons.
Yes, they are two different things.

Guitardian wrote:I don't know what you're smoking but elites are the crucial part of a good Eldar army. Only 3 slots, and they are our most effective specialty infantry. To put it in perspective, you get 5 dragons for the price of 1 Oblit, and they are suicide mission guys... but you also have to buy their delivery system. Eldar don't have the option to take a transport for less than 100 points. Sorry no rhinos just really expensive hover tanks. So it's a difficult comparison to make.

Wave Serpents are crazy good. Idk why you are complaining. As long as you point them forwards they are hard to kill. And if you really wanna make sure they live holofields make them near invincible.

Wave Serpents can't take holofields. They die just as easily as any other AV12 vehicle to krack missiles.

The "hard to kill" wave serpent is a myth.

mrwittwer wrote:

Guitardian wrote:I don't know what you're smoking but elites are the crucial part of a good Eldar army. Only 3 slots, and they are our most effective specialty infantry. To put it in perspective, you get 5 dragons for the price of 1 Oblit, and they are suicide mission guys... but you also have to buy their delivery system. Eldar don't have the option to take a transport for less than 100 points. Sorry no rhinos just really expensive hover tanks. So it's a difficult comparison to make.

Wave Serpents are crazy good. Idk why you are complaining. As long as you point them forwards they are hard to kill. And if you really wanna make sure they live holofields make them near invincible.

Serpents can't have Holo-Fields.

I wouldn't say they are crazy good, but they work well enough for Dragon Delivery and work well in the Mechdar list.
Though a tad on the pricey side even when minimally equipped.

Though the Energy Field helps against mass Melta, it is true, it's still 'just' AV 12. Which is a bit better than AV 11 at face value IMO.

willydstyle wrote:Wave Serpents can't take holofields. They die just as easily as any other AV12 vehicle to krack missiles.

The "hard to kill" wave serpent is a myth.

My mistake, it seems i will have to read over my opponents codex's more thoroughly as i have played against an opponent who took holofields on his wave serpent.

Oh I'm not complaining about the WS at all, any more than a SM/CSM/SW/BA/DA etc player would complain about a land raider. Points-wise you get what you pay for. It is a good tank. BUT... if the only reason for it is to drop off some suicide dragons, it would be nice to have a cheaper alternative. aka rhino/drop pod. We don't get that option for the 35 point drop off suicide squad. YES fire dragons are almost always a good choice for elites, but so are banshees when 2/3 of your FLGS are using some kind of MEQ, so are harlies as a counter-charge threat versus damn near anything, so are scorps for 'nid killin and ork killin. Fire dragons almost always pop something and get thrashed in the following turn and there's nothing to be done about it. They die easy. The elites are the surgical scalpel of the Eldar, precise tool for precise job mentality. Only 3 slots means that while you technically could put 3 full squads of dragons in 3 WS and melt an awful lot of stuff, that means no counter-charge support, no cc ability whatsoever, no 'versus MEQ' kind of power weapon specialists, and just die a turn later.

Shees: raped by 5th ed combat rules.
Harlies: same, plus lots of fast moving flamy get in your face dakka units.
Scorps: lose point for point to orc boyz.

Dragons to their job better because the rules they are involved with got better.

For combat you always have your council...which doesn't take an Elite Slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic:
CSM do not play like Eldar, but your mind set should be like Eldar, even though you don't have the same tools...expand more on this please?

I find these arguments that chaos should "play like Eldar" to be very non-specific, and thus non-helpful.

Guess what *any* army is improved if you use synergy and maneuver to your advantage.

I agree with some points. I am going to get some 1k sons soon and see how they do, obviously with a rhino. those AP3 bolters are a nice thing to have

Sanctjud wrote:Back on topic:
CSM do not play like Eldar, but your mind set should be like Eldar, even though you don't have the same tools...expand more on this please?

I apologise for being a bit vague in the descriptions of my musings.

I indeed meant that you have to have an Eldar mind set.

You simply cannot play CSM as a generic MEQ army unless you take no Chaos Specific stuff (Defiler, Possessed, OBL etc), it just doesn't work that way.

The CSM have unique units that do specific things, just like Eldar.

PMs are your tough units, KB are your close combat, NM have Dakka and 1K Sons are a bit of a mix between NM/PM.

Each of these units has a distinct role just like the Eldar Aspects.

In regards to my views on CSM should play like ELdar it was in relation to their lack of numbers and their general elite unit status.

@The Night Stalker:
I hope to Grandfather Nurgle you get a good deal on the Dust Buckets because...well... I hope you don't get let down too hard. I've seen people quit 40K after reading up the Dust Bucket entry in the light of 5th ed.

@radiohazard:
I see it as, the majority of the troops are forgiving...which is the main difference between CSM and Eldar if we accept that both are run similarly.

PM's are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.
CSM are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.
NM are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.

It's the KB (but can take a fist for all-comers) and Dust Buckets that are most limiting, but the Dust Buckets are most dumped on by the 5th Ed Rules.

Defilers are pretty flexible if a bit touched in the head with an identity crisis.
Oblits are the swiss army knives.

Possessed are pretty narrow in their application yes, but in general there doesn't seem a whole lot that's that specialized...

I can see where you are coming from with the forgiving aspect of the CSM, but they have another failing, which is their lack of numbers point for point over Eldar.

My DA unit + Serpent is 292 points. For an equally equipped unit that has a "similar role" (NM in Rhino), the unit is over 345 points.

To fit it all the different units you need to be successful, you need to take a squad number cut, just to be able to field more effective units.

Again, my two cents.

In my humble opinion, the Chaos marines still compete quite well in the hands of a good general. They have a lot to give a general whom can squeeze ever bit of potential out of the force. That being said Chaos could do with a look at the points value, the dreadnought, and lets be honest the entire fast attack section needs an overhaul, or at least a few additional units past the bike and the raptors.

doubled wrote:In my humble opinion, the Chaos marines still compete quite well in the hands of a good general. They have a lot to give a general whom can squeeze ever bit of potential out of the force. That being said Chaos could do with a look at the points value, the dreadnought, and lets be honest the entire fast attack section needs an overhaul, or at least a few additional units past the bike and the raptors.

LOL!!!

If I made a list of what I would want in the next CSM codex it would take up the entire space of this gargantuan thread.

So much good stuff was taken out of the 2nd ed and late 3rd ed codexes.