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It's too late at night to argue about this, where I live. I'll post later on. Essentially, I'm in disagreement with the OP's point. CSM are still a top tier list, fully capable of winning tourneys and crushing the enemy.

I was willing to run Lash DP/Rhino CSM/Oblits/Termicide in 'Ard Boyz last year, and even though I did quite well with them, I'd be very hesitant to run them again this year.

-New IG simply present too much firepower. My 2500 IG 'Ard Boyz has, in addition to double mystics and the usual 12+ vehicles, more than 80 special and heavy weapons. Not shots, actual weapons. A flamer is 1. A T/L Lascannon is 1. An autocannon is 1. 80 of them. Majority at S6 or higher. My 'Ard Boyz CSM army totaled about 76 models.

Lash is largely irrelevant because there's nothing worth lashing, and Chaos simply can't bring enough firepower to bear quickly enough. If you sit on the table, you can destroy, potentially, three vehicles on turn 1 with 3 Heavy slots shooting. If you get first turn. If the IG player gets first turn, you can either try Reserves tricks, which he can counter with mystics to a large extent, or a lot of your gak is going to die.

-Same thing with Space Wolves, and some well-built marine lists. Space Wolves especially will not only out-shoot you with cost effective AC Dreads, Long Fangs, and massed Razorbacks, but can also outfight you. TCav will put the hurt on any unit save for maybe Kharn or Abaddon, and are so fast that they can stay out of arms reach. Wolf Lords will generally outfight other Chaos HQs, save for maybe Abaddon again, but once more the speed issue can come into play.

I do agree that the old Lash Chaos build is fully capable of handing a mediore list or player their ass on a cracker, but the same can be said for the newer generation of IG/SW/mech Marines, and in the competitive matchups, I'd much rather have the newer codices.

I agree with 40kE. Chaos can hold it's own vs those IG and SW lists. Think outside the box. No PM's and no Lash, it can still work. Remember nothing beats everything 100% of the time and the point of the game is to win the mission, not line up and kill things.

Sourclams - 80 heavy weapons in 2500pts huh? You must be including any str 5+ weapon on vehicles as a heavy weapon right?


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I will say I would be remiss to say I don't wish for a more viable shooting element from the Chaos FA slots.

Hey I can't even GET a heavy weapon in a 5 man squad with either of my armies. Oh wah wah I only get 1 lascannon in a 5-man squad? puuhhhleeez... Eldar can only put them on models that can't shoot straight, and Marines can only take one for every 10 men. I'm not whining about that because I know my army has its strengths and weaknesses too, but how can you complain about getting boo hoo only 1 out of 5 guys with heavy weapon options?!

Actually, the Warlock in the squad can fire the Eldar's heavy weapon so its BS4, but I digress.

Lol, I play Dark Angels, if you think Chaos has it bad...

Anyways, on topic, I think really what it is; is that Chaos players need to adjust to the new power builds.

It looks like heavy weapon spam and lots of tanks has returned in full force after a temporary hiatus. It's just a matter of designing a new army that fits better.

I do agree that Chaos is a 2nd tier army now. There is no question that the last few codecies have had their power turned up.

DarkHound wrote:Actually, the Warlock in the squad can fire the Eldar's heavy weapon so its BS4, but I digress.

No he doesn't! Not that I've ever seen anyways. the gun is based on the two gunner figs, not the squad as a whole.

Page 55 of the main rulebook, under "The Unit," second paragraph. The Warlock is the leader of the squad and is able to use the artillery peice.

Yeah, I think the Chaos codex has run out of juice as far as being at the top.

DarkHound wrote:Page 55 of the main rulebook, under "The Unit," second paragraph. The Warlock is the leader of the squad and is able to use the artillery peice.

Yeah, I think the Chaos codex has run out of juice as far as being at the top.

The heavy weapon in a guardian squad is not an artillery piece in any way, shape, or form, and the codex tells you to use one of the two models specified for using the platform. The warlock may not.

Well, hell, I got the wool pulled over my eyes then. I'll have to have a chat with that Space Elf the next time I see him.

DarthDiggler wrote:I agree with 40kE. Chaos can hold it's own vs those IG and SW lists. Think outside the box. No PM's and no Lash, it can still work. Remember nothing beats everything 100% of the time and the point of the game is to win the mission, not line up and kill things.

No offense intended, but banalities like 'think outside the box' absolutely do not a better codex make. The Chaos dex is very much an in-the-box codex; moving metal boxes, called rhinos. The codex can be successful based on the strength/viability of its troops alone, but with the newer codices also having excellent troops as well as excellent Fast and Elite options and dynamic deployment, it's very much behind the curve.

Sourclams - 80 heavy weapons in 2500pts huh? You must be including any str 5+ weapon on vehicles as a heavy weapon right?

Of course I am. Special and heavy weapons, as I already said. Regardless of where they are or what carries them, a bulked up IG list has more guns than most lists have models at 2500.

Think about Gift of Chaos. Your opponents shooty squad just lost a guy, and they`re fighting a free Spawn. I like the sound of that

sourclams wrote:

Sourclams - 80 heavy weapons in 2500pts huh? You must be including any str 5+ weapon on vehicles as a heavy weapon right?

Of course I am. Special and heavy weapons, as I already said. Regardless of where they are or what carries them, a bulked up IG list has more guns than most lists have models at 2500.

Ok that is what I thought. I have trouble thinking of multi-lasers and heavy flamers on chimeras as heavy weapons since the chimera moves and almost nothing fires, but I uderstand your point.

Here's an outside the box Chaos list that does quite well.

HQ - DP, MOK
HQ - DP, wings, MOS, lash
EL - dread, extra arm, heavy flamer
EL - dread, extra arm, heavy flamer
EL - Dread, twin-heavy bolter, missile
TR - 10 csm, lascannon, plasmagun
TR - 10 csm, lascannon, meltagun
TR - 10 csm, 2 - meltagun, Icon of khorne, rhino
TR - 10 - csm, missile, meltagun, icon of slaanesh, rhino
HV - predator destructor, dozer blade
HV - predator destructor, dozer blade
HV - 3 obliterators

No plaguemarines, one lash, one unit of oblits, only 2 rhinos and most importantly no one unit that must be stopped. Anything can be lost from this list and it will remain effective.

The list you put up loses shoot-outs with shooty lists, and loses fistfights with fighty lists.

You have two missile launchers, two lascannons, two Predators and three Oblits.

You have four meltaguns.

In the mirror match, your list loses to the standard Lash/Oblit/PM spam list.

This is an outside-the-box list, but it's absolutely not competitive.

sourclams wrote:The list you put up loses shoot-outs with shooty lists, and loses fistfights with fighty lists.

You have two missile launchers, two lascannons, two Predators and three Oblits.

You have four meltaguns.

In the mirror match, your list loses to the standard Lash/Oblit/PM spam list.

This is an outside-the-box list, but it's absolutely not competitive.

I assault shooty lists and I shoot assault lists. Top Tier competitive list do not always win by doing one thing. That is a fallacy in list building that never bores out on the tabletop. One trick pony armies regularly beat average players, but can not win regularly against the top players All competitive lists must be able to vacilate between strategies in order to be successful against all comers. That is an important truth to learn to be successful at tournaments.

Why do you think meltaguns are the only way to kill a tank? Another fallacy I see is people think melta is the only way to stop a tank. That shows limited thinking. I don't have 4 meltaguns. I have 2 units with meltaguns. That is a better way to think about it. 7 units to reach out to touch tanks and 4 units to slaughter tanks in HtH. I've beaten IG parking lots played by Adepticon champions with this list. I'm sorry you don't know how to play the list. I guess I play better 'outside the box' than most.

It's not worth arguing with you. You've posted a bunch of misc rubbish, and said 'it's not second tier because I win all the time'.

Never mind that if you move your troops to assault shooty lists, you lose half of your heavy weapon fire.

And never mind that if you bunker up to shoot fighty lists, you're trying to make a gunline with 1/5 of the firepower of a gunline list.

Congrats, you are clearly a far better player than I.

sourclams wrote:
And never mind that if you bunker up to shoot fighty lists, you're trying to make a gunline with 1/5 of the firepower of a gunline list.

And 3x the close combat ability. Chaos Marines can shoot and assault at the same time.

Long range fire support does not need to outshoot anything, they just need to support the troops in the rhinos.

Using IG as a standard is ridiculous as they are in their own tier as is, and their strengths are CSM's weaknesses.

I don't have 4 meltaguns. I have 2 units with meltaguns.

@ Darth, Dont you have 3 units with melta guns? And also i think the best way to do a hybrid list is for half the units to be good at shooting and the other half good at assaulting. But mixing and matching isnt bad i just dont prefer it i like to know that certain units will get the job done. The only unit that boggles me is the TR - 10 csm, lascannon, meltagun. To much points to move it and lose the LC shot imo. But if it works it works. I think a plasma gun woud work with a LC alot better then a melta gun imo.

Night Lords wrote:

sourclams wrote:
And never mind that if you bunker up to shoot fighty lists, you're trying to make a gunline with 1/5 of the firepower of a gunline list.

And 3x the close combat ability. Chaos Marines can shoot and assault at the same time.

Long range fire support does not need to outshoot anything, they just need to support the troops in the rhinos.

Using IG as a standard is ridiculous as they are in their own tier as is, and their strengths are CSM's weaknesses.

I dont see why you cant use IG as a standard. I still think all but necrons and tau are in the top tier. Its just IG (no offense to all IG players) have a easier time as they are based at being great at range/horde so tactics can be kinda bypassed as alot of guns is always great and few armies can hang with IG at a range IMHO. I mean all armies have a weakness.

Guitardian wrote:Hey I can't even GET a heavy weapon in a 5 man squad with either of my armies. Oh wah wah I only get 1 lascannon in a 5-man squad? puuhhhleeez... Eldar can only put them on models that can't shoot straight, and Marines can only take one for every 10 men. I'm not whining about that because I know my army has its strengths and weaknesses too, but how can you complain about getting boo hoo only 1 out of 5 guys with heavy weapon options?!

Yes you are whining. You have done it this entire thread about your silly eldar. Why you are footslogging guardians with heavy weapons is beyond me, and i can complain about wave serpents full of fire dragons and banshees if you really wanna go there. But this is a chaos thread, quit complaining about eldar.


As to OP's statement. Halsfield got it right away. Chaos havent gotten worse, everything else has just gotten better. I have never used Lash, Oblit, and PM spam. Mainly because my daemon princes are always in CC and lash would be a waste for them. If i really wanted lash i would get a sorc and throw him with some CSM in a rhino. I think that is way more powerfull. A lash sorc in a rhino gets armor and a nice csm squad for wound shielding. But this isnt the real point of the thread i suppose.

CSM are still a very viable option depending on how you play them. This is true with all dex's. Dark eldar are still used and their codex is older than the hills, but strategies are made.

As to the jab at bezerkers being ineffective it really goes like this, if they get the charge they will kill the squad. If they dont, chances are they will die. But the only reason that is true is because bezerkers are a threat, so my opponents send tough things at them. A 10 man squad of bezerkers has around 40 attacks on the charge, on a 30 strong ork boy squad. Hitting on 3's wounding on 3's zerkers shouldnt have a problem. I have had a 10 man squad of zerkers take down 3 grey knight terminators on the charge, a difficult task.

Overall, still a viable list just need to try and think beyond Lash.

Chaos are still beefy, it's just that they have been around longer and people expect the same things due to...IMO a lack of options in various FoC that perform that differently from the universal standard that is SM.

And yes, new codicies have nice neat tricks that are trick ponyish and need time to adjust to.

It LOOKS like a second tier army, but any good player/general wielding an army they know inside out will do well no matter what the net speak say.

FoeHammer wrote:

@ Darth, Dont you have 3 units with melta guns? And also i think the best way to do a hybrid list is for half the units to be good at shooting and the other half good at assaulting. But mixing and matching isnt bad i just dont prefer it i like to know that certain units will get the job done. The only unit that boggles me is the TR - 10 csm, lascannon, meltagun. To much points to move it and lose the LC shot imo. But if it works it works. I think a plasma gun woud work with a LC alot better then a melta gun imo.

Yes you are right. I do have 3 units with meltaguns and not 2. I like the two 10-man units out of rhinos to sit back and hold my objective(s). I like the meltagun in that unit because I would not like to see a soul grinder or podding dreadnought to run through my backfield as the rest of the army advanced. I like lists that can play both games, shooting and assaulting, if and when necessary. Guard need to get assaulted. I've used the Rhino's and Pred's as shields for the Dreads and DP's to get close and get into the IG lines. The 3 squads of CSM with heavy weapons can sit back to move over objectives and shoot across the board at the enemy with the Oblits and shooty dread. It works remarkably well.



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sourclams wrote:
Congrats, you are clearly a far better player than I.

Always remember that.

Here's an "outside the box" list that I've used against Guard with some success.

Abaddon
Kharn the Betrayer
20 Plague Marines w/champ
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
5 Plague Marines w/champ
5 Plague Marines w/champ
Summoned Greater Daemon

Abaddon + Kharn + 20 Plague Marines walk up the board in a long line, seperated at max coherency. Small arms fire bounces off, because they are t5 FNP. Psyker powers are blocked by Kharne, small templates can hit one on a direct hit, large templates can hit 3. Because they are winding through stuff they pretty much always have cover.

Casualties are removed from the back of the line.

Land Raiders shoot Guard vehicles with twin linked lascannons, and sit on objectives being armor 14.

Guard could probably pull a draw in drawfest, but in KP they will lose, and in multi-objectives they will lose.

This list doesn't fall down vs. normal enemy lists either, although you don't always use the snake technique.

I think this fulfills the requirements of A, beats Guard, and B, doesn't have marines in rhinos supported by Oblits/Lash.

CSM is a fine book.

Night Lords wrote:

sourclams wrote:
And never mind that if you bunker up to shoot fighty lists, you're trying to make a gunline with 1/5 of the firepower of a gunline list.

And 3x the close combat ability. Chaos Marines can shoot and assault at the same time.

Long range fire support does not need to outshoot anything, they just need to support the troops in the rhinos.

Using IG as a standard is ridiculous as they are in their own tier as is, and their strengths are CSM's weaknesses.

And space wolves do it better than CSM. Your troops in rhinos are solid, it's the troops out of the rhinos that could have some problems.

It's easy to tailor a list with CSM (or most other armies), it's quite a different thing to make an all-comers list with CSM.


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40kenthusiast wrote:Here's an "outside the box" list that I've used against Guard with some success.

Abaddon
Kharn the Betrayer
20 Plague Marines w/champ
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
5 Plague Marines w/champ
5 Plague Marines w/champ
Summoned Greater Daemon

Abaddon + Kharn + 20 Plague Marines walk up the board in a long line, seperated at max coherency. Small arms fire bounces off, because they are t5 FNP. Psyker powers are blocked by Kharne, small templates can hit one on a direct hit, large templates can hit 3. Because they are winding through stuff they pretty much always have cover.

Casualties are removed from the back of the line.

Land Raiders shoot Guard vehicles with twin linked lascannons, and sit on objectives being armor 14.

Guard could probably pull a draw in drawfest, but in KP they will lose, and in multi-objectives they will lose.

This list doesn't fall down vs. normal enemy lists either, although you don't always use the snake technique.

I think this fulfills the requirements of A, beats Guard, and B, doesn't have marines in rhinos supported by Oblits/Lash.

CSM is a fine book.

Ummm...

Tailoring lists is not what this should be about. After all, in a competitive environment such as a tournament, you don't get that option.

eNvY wrote:How is a 2+ save with 2 wounds squishy? That's twice as tough as a terminator. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about terminators being fragile.

Lascannons, my friend. Oblits get wrecked by them, since they're T4. And termies usually come in squads of more than 3.

Plus, oblits are hella expensive, at what, 75 points each?

I'm actually thinking of going retro in response to changes with space puppies, mech IG, and Nids.

Back in 3rd edition I would field a havok squad with 4 missile launchers. In the current 5th ed I'm starting to think it might be a good idea again.

Lets look another look at the 4 missile launcher havok squad.

It's 150 points: Same cost as 2 obliterators.

It's 4 shots against vechicles or MC.

Mathhammer favors 4 str 8 shots over 2 str9 shots against AV11 and AV12 targets. Rhinos and Chimera are AV11 and AV12.

Mechanized CSM armies have enough melta guns that we don't need to worry about dropping lascannon shots into AV14 targets. Melta guns, Deamon Princes, and SGD work just fine against Land Raiders.

There is no advantage of shooting a str6 MC with a str 9 weapon over a Str8 weapon.

The only Nid MC with a 2+ save is a carnifax, which has become obsolete when compared to other MC options nid players have now.

Something to consider:

A T6 model with FNP gets a 4+ save against an AP3 weapon like a missle launcher.

It does not against any AP2 weapon, like plasma or lascannons.

S8 can only glance a Monolith, and glancing hits cannot ever kill monoliths unless by melta.

The Monolith is a throwaway comparison I'll admit, as generally you could just beat the necrons any number of other ways. But the first example basically brings up new nids. It makes it a lot harder to bring down that charging trygon or that tervigon sitting on an objective when they're at effectively double their wounds.

And while we're doing comparisons, Chaos can take a 155 point 4-missle launcher havoc squad, sure. Space Wolves pay 140 for 6 men with 5 missle launchers that re-roll night fight dice, get counterattack, auto-regroup below half strength, and can split fire.

If you like, you can then attach a Wolf Guard in terminator armour with a cyclone launcher for a total of 7 missle launcher shots per squad. Granted that's more points, but the squad also now has a model it can toss AP3 wounds on and likely save, increasing durability more than you'd think. That's neither here nor there. Just stating that for FEWER points you get MORE marines with MORE heavy weapons and MORE special rules.

Meltaguns really are the most reliable way to kill tanks. Turning your odds from 1/3 to 1/2 to kill them works wonders. Really, the new vehicle damage table from 5th and the new squadron rules have made vehicles a real pain to kill - which I think was needed, though the new trend to then make 40 point minidreds [kans], 30 point buggies, and 35 point rhinos and 50 point chimeras was a bit misguided. When you need to kill lots of tanks fast, and you don't have that many weapons, melta is the way to go. If you DO have a lot of weapons [Guard, Eldar, DEldar, SW] then you can bring more long-range stuff and make the enemy come to you.

imweasel wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

40kenthusiast wrote:Here's an "outside the box" list that I've used against Guard with some success.

Abaddon
Kharn the Betrayer
20 Plague Marines w/champ
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
5 Plague Marines w/champ
5 Plague Marines w/champ
Summoned Greater Daemon

Abaddon + Kharn + 20 Plague Marines walk up the board in a long line, seperated at max coherency. Small arms fire bounces off, because they are t5 FNP. Psyker powers are blocked by Kharne, small templates can hit one on a direct hit, large templates can hit 3. Because they are winding through stuff they pretty much always have cover.

Casualties are removed from the back of the line.

Land Raiders shoot Guard vehicles with twin linked lascannons, and sit on objectives being armor 14.

Guard could probably pull a draw in drawfest, but in KP they will lose, and in multi-objectives they will lose.

This list doesn't fall down vs. normal enemy lists either, although you don't always use the snake technique.

I think this fulfills the requirements of A, beats Guard, and B, doesn't have marines in rhinos supported by Oblits/Lash.

CSM is a fine book.

Ummm...

Tailoring lists is not what this should be about. After all, in a competitive environment such as a tournament, you don't get that option.

In all fairness it's not really a tailored list. It's fairly tough due to heavy reliance on AV14, PMs, and super characters. Undeniably a Death Star-type list, though, and a slow one at that. The massive squad size makes you vulnerable to dynamic assault out of range of Abaddon/Kharn even with the 6" pile in, and their already-slow speed makes them more of an area-denial squad than an offensive power house. Similarly it lacks really any way to stop other Land Raider lists at range, giving a decisive advantage to basic Marine Big Rock lists.

I think the real weakness is the utter lack of mobility. If the Land Raiders move, they lose all but one lascannon firing. Abaddon and Co are slow as molasses, especially if they have to go through/around terrain, and the low model count makes it relatively easy for mobile lists to simply duck around.

And if your opponent has the ability to outflank melta squads, you're in real trouble.

Spellbound wrote:Something to consider:

A T6 model with FNP gets a 4+ save against an AP3 weapon like a missle launcher.

It does not against any AP2 weapon, like plasma or lascannons.

S8 can only glance a Monolith, and glancing hits cannot ever kill monoliths unless by melta.

The Monolith is a throwaway comparison I'll admit, as generally you could just beat the necrons any number of other ways. But the first example basically brings up new nids. It makes it a lot harder to bring down that charging trygon or that tervigon sitting on an objective when they're at effectively double their wounds.

And while we're doing comparisons, Chaos can take a 155 point 4-missle launcher havoc squad, sure. Space Wolves pay 140 for 6 men with 5 missle launchers that re-roll night fight dice, get counterattack, auto-regroup below half strength, and can split fire.

If you like, you can then attach a Wolf Guard in terminator armour with a cyclone launcher for a total of 7 missle launcher shots per squad. Granted that's more points, but the squad also now has a model it can toss AP3 wounds on and likely save, increasing durability more than you'd think. That's neither here nor there. Just stating that for FEWER points you get MORE marines with MORE heavy weapons and MORE special rules.

Meltaguns really are the most reliable way to kill tanks. Turning your odds from 1/3 to 1/2 to kill them works wonders. Really, the new vehicle damage table from 5th and the new squadron rules have made vehicles a real pain to kill - which I think was needed, though the new trend to then make 40 point minidreds [kans], 30 point buggies, and 35 point rhinos and 50 point chimeras was a bit misguided. When you need to kill lots of tanks fast, and you don't have that many weapons, melta is the way to go. If you DO have a lot of weapons [Guard, Eldar, DEldar, SW] then you can bring more long-range stuff and make the enemy come to you.

Only Tervigons can give FNP to a tyranid list, and only to a single unit per turn. Since missile launchers also insta kill warriors, zoenthropes, and the doom there will be an overabundance of optimal targets for missiles whenever fighting bugs. The extra point cost for lascannons is just not worth the cost purely to get around catalyst when fatalist can not protect all of the priority targets that it needs to cover.

Necrons are irrelevant, you said so yourself. Necrons are a true T2/T3/Tier 4 army. If a chaos player can't beat necrons the problem is with the chaos player. Attacking Monoliths is a complete waste of time when any list that spends points on Monoliths is easy to phase out by killing enough warriors.

Mechanized troops with metla guns is the ideal way to slag tanks. I just don't see the need for lascannons in a chaos army in most games. Str 8 missiles work just fine against AV12 and under. Anything AV13+ is slow enough to be caught by melta guns. I think it's time to give cut back on the # of obliterators. Most players only use it as a lascannon or plasma cannon, and we just don't need to be spending 70 points on a single lascannon.

Long Fangs are better than havocs. Long fangs are also better than Devastators, so does that mean all loyalist marine armies are now T2 armies? Space wolves did get a ridiculously good deal on long fangs, but that's their codex. Envy of another codex's toys won't help out a CSM army, and if we need missiles then we'll have to make do with havocs instead of long fangs. It's either that, or convert your CSM into corrupted space wolves so you can go play under a different codex.

Spellbound wrote:Something to consider:

A T6 model with FNP gets a 4+ save against an AP3 weapon like a missle launcher.

It does not against any AP2 weapon, like plasma or lascannons.

S8 can only glance a Monolith, and glancing hits cannot ever kill monoliths unless by melta.

The Monolith is a throwaway comparison I'll admit, as generally you could just beat the necrons any number of other ways. But the first example basically brings up new nids. It makes it a lot harder to bring down that charging trygon or that tervigon sitting on an objective when they're at effectively double their wounds.

And while we're doing comparisons, Chaos can take a 155 point 4-missle launcher havoc squad, sure. Space Wolves pay 140 for 6 men with 5 missle launchers that re-roll night fight dice, get counterattack, auto-regroup below half strength, and can split fire.

If you like, you can then attach a Wolf Guard in terminator armour with a cyclone launcher for a total of 7 missle launcher shots per squad. Granted that's more points, but the squad also now has a model it can toss AP3 wounds on and likely save, increasing durability more than you'd think. That's neither here nor there. Just stating that for FEWER points you get MORE marines with MORE heavy weapons and MORE special rules.

Meltaguns really are the most reliable way to kill tanks. Turning your odds from 1/3 to 1/2 to kill them works wonders. Really, the new vehicle damage table from 5th and the new squadron rules have made vehicles a real pain to kill - which I think was needed, though the new trend to then make 40 point minidreds [kans], 30 point buggies, and 35 point rhinos and 50 point chimeras was a bit misguided. When you need to kill lots of tanks fast, and you don't have that many weapons, melta is the way to go. If you DO have a lot of weapons [Guard, Eldar, DEldar, SW] then you can bring more long-range stuff and make the enemy come to you.

Lol and space wolves dont have DSing inless you have a Drop pod, no deamons, no oblits, no super troopers (Zerkers, noise, plague, and 1k marines) they are different armies how are you gonna complain about that. Do you want to play all the same codex? If you want to bitch about something bitch about Air Cav guard that is something to reckon with.

@sour: Not saying it's the end all and be all, but it's great vs. Guard/shooting, and not utterly wretched vs. other assault. You don't really need to move the land raiders often, they just sit on your objective and fire while the PM's move up onto the enemy objective. Don't put the super squad in cover and you are usually all right.

Vs. enemy's who assault don't spread out like you do vs. templates.