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I've actually been debating taking a chaos gift with my Night Lords Lord, but just calling it something else, although it still feels wrong, you know?

But here is how I would run a Night Lords commander. (Maybe we should give an example of our preferred warband's preferred leader? seems like a decent idea to flesh out the warbands a tid)

Lord
MoS, Doomsiren
Shadowlord (3d6 LD tests)
Daemonic Visage (He looks flying rodent gak scary)
Jump Pack/Wings
Dual Lightning Claws

Just Dave wrote:Not a bad idea Praxiss, but there is a problem in that you can't take Daemonic Toughness (read: bionics ) and Chaos Armour as they're both gifts; just go for Termie armour instead if I were you - very Iron Warriors esc too.

Sorry, i can't see where it says the Lord can't take gifts......

ZephyrRey wrote:I've actually been debating taking a chaos gift with my Night Lords Lord, but just calling it something else, although it still feels wrong, you know?

But here is how I would run a Night Lords commander. (Maybe we should give an example of our preferred warband's preferred leader? seems like a decent idea to flesh out the warbands a tid)

Lord
MoS, Doomsiren
Shadowlord (3d6 LD tests)
Daemonic Visage (He looks flying rodent gak scary)
Jump Pack/Wings
Dual Lightning Claws

Well visage should merge well with Shadowlord too, which is of course a bonus!

My leader in my army list would actually be Lucius or a Prince probably!

Praxiss wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Not a bad idea Praxiss, but there is a problem in that you can't take Daemonic Toughness (read: bionics ) and Chaos Armour as they're both gifts; just go for Termie armour instead if I were you - very Iron Warriors esc too.

Sorry, i can't see where it says the Lord can't take gifts......

Well its listed under "may take on of the following Chaos Gifts", where both toughness and armour are listed, hence...

Ah, i thought you meant he couldn't take either. He can take only one of them. Sorry, brain fart.

So is this where we post feedback for the codex?

Noisy_Marine wrote:So is this where we post feedback for the codex?

Yes.

Yeah, please do!

Here or PM, but preferably here thanks.

Alpha Legion = Awesome

Ok.

Here are my impressions, keeping in mind I don't have the codex handy at the moment, so I may get small details wrong.

I really like the idea of warband icons. I was wondering what would happen if my Shadow Lord turned into a spawn from Gift of the Gods, though. Would he still be THE SHADOW LORD?

Overall, I think the characters and HQ's are overpriced for what you get. Abbadon went up ten points and get 2 situational abilities. Let the Galaxy Burn only affects stuff really close to him, and the Terminator Spearhead thing is not all that useful, though really cool I think. It would be nice if Abby had an ability that affected everything on the table like Marneus Calgar or the newer SM characters, though I'm not entirely sure what it would be.

Kharn looks good, but at 180 damn he is expensive. And he doesn't hit on a 2+? Sweet Emperor on a stick! That's his best ability! At least he got eternal warrior back, but I don't know if the large price increase is warranted.

Lucius is even more expensive than Kharn? Yikes. He better be good. Well, he's pretty good. Eternal Warrior and always re-rolls his wounds are very helpful, as that was my main problem with him was when comparing him to Kharn. At 190, he seems very expensive though. Maybe drop him to 180 and put Kharn at 170?

Typhus, Ahriman, and the others look good to me. Ahriman lost the ability to spam Turn You Into a Spawn 3 times in a turn, but that's OK. Huron Blackhearts ability is very useful, I approve. The beast of annihilation demon prince seems very, very expensive. I like your possessed, but I don't know if I would use him, just because he's so points heavy for a DP.

Chaos Lords went up 10 points for no apparent reason. Sorceror's look good, but I take issue with certain psychic powers. Demon Princes are god awful expensive now that they are always T6. Wings for 45 points? I think 30 would be more appropriate. I see no reason to make MC's pay a premium for wings, since MC's are generally expensive to begin with.
And demon weapons ... yeah those are way to expensive. 45 and 50 points for a lord and DP? They still bite you in the butt, and this time you get no save for the wound. That means your demon weapon will take a wound off once per game on average. At least you still get to attack, but you lose all bonuses from the weapon. So I assume you just attack with a CC weapon? That definitely needs a points drop. They are overcosted in the current codex and overcosted in this one.

Lets see. Termies got better with Stubborn, which they need since they lost Fearless. Possessed got a LOT better. I like your ability table and the effect of marks on them. Dreadnoughts are still crazy but you at least specify an enemy unit under the Crazed result. And hey, there's a non-crazy Dred. Cool. Chosen are still awesome, and have even more skills to choose from.

Oh, moving Fabius to Elites is a good idea. He makes a pretty bad HQ in my opinion. Not much of a fighter. The enhanced warriors get +1 T. Sweet.
I kind of glanced over the Warcoven, so I will refrain from commenting on that.

Under troops we still have Cult units, CSM, and now heretics and operatives. It all looks pretty good. Noise marines all get sonic blasters now, which I agree with. The blast master may be 5 points over priced at 30 points. I'm not sure. Berzerkers now have counter attack (Like space wolves!). And yay there are cultists! And there are Better Cultists!

Under fast attack, bikes look pretty good. I laughed when I first read Hit and Run Over. Raptors are a big disappointment. There's just nothing chaos about them besides marks. No option for demonic visage or hit and run? They glorified assault marines, which I think is wrong.

Spawn looked really good until I realized two things. First, they are Mindless which is like Slow and Purposeful, except worse. Second, they are infantry instead of beasts. Really, why put such a slow unit in Fast Attack? It just doesn't make sense. Otherwise they have nice stats and the effects of the marks are good too.

Then in heavy, we have Havocs. They are basically just devastators with icons. An option for veteran skills would be nice, but people would probably scream OP at tank hunting Havocs (with autocannons of course). Oblits look pretty good. They got a price increase but got a nice ability too. I still miss the T5 Oblits myself. I hate losing them to lascannons and melta guns in one shot.

I really like the Land Raider Marauder, and the LR got back its machine spirit. Vindi and Pred are just copies of the loyalist versions with option for demonic possession, nothing to write home about. Um ... I think that's it for heavy. I may have missed something.

Then for demons. The lesser demons look pretty good. You managed to fit horrors, bloodletters, demonettes, and plaguebearers in one entry and did a decent job of it. They still need icons. Greater demons have to possess a champion or character still. That never made since to me fluff-wise, but oh well. My one big complaint here is that the Bloodletter and Lord of Change DON'T HAVE WINGS! Seriously.

That about wraps it up. No, wait, it doesn't. I just remembered there was a flier in the fast attack section. It looked good. The selection of bombs is nice. Hm, oh and I liked the Gift of Chaos table. Nice and random with a possibility of a big power boost, and only 5 points.

And two more things: Visions of Chaos and the new Demonic Visage. Visions of Chaos needs to be something that works all the time. Look at the other races psychic defenses. Psychic hoods, Runes of Warding, Shadow in the Warp, and ... that's about it. Oh yeah the Dark Eldar have a one shot thing that probably won't work because you have to fail a leadership test.

Anyway, the majority of psychic defense work all the time, without tests. Anything you give to Chaos ought to be like that. Most sorcerers can only use one power a turn, why bother using Visions of Chaos instead of something like Warptime or the new and improved Doombolt? The only time I see using Visions is if I'm running Ahriman or a Tzeentch Psyker and I have that extra psychic test to spare. Usually I don't. I'd rather use Warp Time plus a shooting attack I think.

And Demonic Visage only works if your opponent falls a leadership test. Which means it will almost never work. It's a dead ability.

Ok, I think that's all. I may have skipped some stuff entirely, but I covered most of what I wanted. Overall I like the codex. It just has some niggling bits I disagree with. If this were released as the next chaos codex right now, I would feel slightly disappointed. Mainly at what I think are unwarranted price increases on the characters. But I would be pretty happy with most of the other stuff.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I really like the idea of warband icons. I was wondering what would happen if my Shadow Lord turned into a spawn from Gift of the Gods, though. Would he still be THE SHADOW LORD?

Nope. He'd be a spawn without the Shadow Lord rule.

Thanks for the feedback Noisy, it's appreciated as I'm trying to make this as balanced and useful as possible. I'll go through your post and respond to points, explaining my reasoning behind some of then changes etc. Bear in mind that this is only my opinion (but obviously as ze creator it's the deciding opinion), but it should help you understand my reasoning and possibly change your mind on some things.

Overall, I think the characters and HQ's are overpriced for what you get. Abbadon went up ten points and get 2 situational abilities. Let the Galaxy Burn only affects stuff really close to him, and the Terminator Spearhead thing is not all that useful, though really cool I think. It would be nice if Abby had an ability that affected everything on the table like Marneus Calgar or the newer SM characters, though I'm not entirely sure what it would be.

I have been wondering about the cost of Abaddon to be honest, so I may take him back down to 275. However, he has gained some boosts: the ability to benefit leadership around him (which isn't particularly situational I'd argue) aswell as no longer requiring a Land Raider, his usual retinue (Termies) will no longer cause him to run away, he doesn't suffer a wound from his daemon weapon which also allows him to continue fighting with a lightning claw and he's gained an attack. The main problems seen with Abaddon were: A) his price (but that's not really going to change a significant amount), B) his delivery options which have now been improved and C) his reliability in close combat, which has also now been improved.
Thinking about it, I'll probably take him back down to 280/275pts. I'm reluctant to add him a Calgar or Chaos-wing like ability as I believe the Chaos HQ's shouldn't be too big a Force Multiplier to represent their selfish nature as well as the distinct lack of originality of making termies scoring.

Kharn looks good, but at 180 damn he is expensive. And he doesn't hit on a 2+? Sweet Emperor on a stick! That's his best ability! At least he got eternal warrior back, but I don't know if the large price increase is warranted.

He's only 15pts more expensive. For these 15pts over his previous status he gains Eternal Warrior, Re-roll to wound rolls of one and what is effectively saga of the warrior born. Albeit, he loses his 2+ hitting.
A standard lord is 100pts. Eternal Warrior (30pts), Saga of the Warrior Born (30pts), Unholy Might (10pts) and Plasma Pistol (15pts) puts him at 185pts, no? So in addition to these he gains a power weapon, meltabombs, personal icon re-roll to wound of 1's, furious charge, extra D6 armour penetration, Mark of Khorne, Immunity to Psychic Powers and Betrayer. Judging from this, I'd say he's a pretty damn good deal. The other problem facing special characters is the need to not make them supersede all Chaos Lords etc, in that instead of a Chaos Lord and player may always take Kharn/Lucius/whomever, which is obviously a problem I want to avoid.
Whilst, yes, losing 2+ hitting is a nerf, he gained the ability to dramatically increase his attacks number; easily capable of killing 4 Space Marines in one turn; in the following turn he'd then have a mighty 11 Str6, In6 attacks on the charge!

Lucius is even more expensive than Kharn? Yikes. He better be good. Well, he's pretty good. Eternal Warrior and always re-rolls his wounds are very helpful, as that was my main problem with him was when comparing him to Kharn. At 190, he seems very expensive though. Maybe drop him to 180 and put Kharn at 170?

To be fair, I've actually worried about Lucius being too good. He's got eternal warrior, WS7, permanent re-rolling to wound and a power weapon, permanent -1 to enemy attacks, initiative 7 and a Doom Siren. Furthermore, against characters or creatures he gets re-rolling to hits and a 4++!
Like Kharn: a Lord is 100pts. Eternal Warrior (30pts), Doom Siren (15pts), Power Weapon (15pts), Initiative 7 (2x MoS = 10pts). So for the extra 20pts he gains +1 WS, meltabombs, personal icon, Lash of Torment, re-rolling to-wound rolls and potential re-rolling to-hits and 4++. He's capable against elite units, characters, hordes and even monstrous creatures at a push. Under this, I'd say Lucius is pretty damn bad-ass. Maybe not quite 190pts, true, but definitely close. Maybe 185pts?

Typhus, Ahriman, and the others look good to me. Ahriman lost the ability to spam Turn You Into a Spawn 3 times in a turn, but that's OK. Huron Blackhearts ability is very useful, I approve. The beast of annihilation demon prince seems very, very expensive. I like your possessed, but I don't know if I would use him, just because he's so points heavy for a DP.

I too am worried about the price of the DP character, but it's difficult consider all his benefits such as fleet, 4++, additional attack, furious charge, Daemon Weapon (therefore 6+ D6 Str9 attacks on the (fleet) charge) and scoring possessed. I too worry about his points, but I'm finding him difficult to cost/balance...

Chaos Lords went up 10 points for no apparent reason. Sorceror's look good, but I take issue with certain psychic powers. Demon Princes are god awful expensive now that they are always T6. Wings for 45 points? I think 30 would be more appropriate. I see no reason to make MC's pay a premium for wings, since MC's are generally expensive to begin with.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Chaos Lords currently 100pts (GW and here), hence they've not changed? I've not got my Codex to hand either (may have lost it actually!), but I'm pretty sure they're the same. Even so, they have gained an attack.
The Daemon Princes are kind of controversial I know, but again, I'll explain my reasoning. Currently, Daemon Princes are pretty much must-have's with CSM's, leaving Lords and Sorcerers barely considered. At 110pts, they also gain A LOT of benefits over the lord for only 10pts. Now, they are 25pts more expensive than their current version. For this they effectively gain MoN (20pts); meaning their cost has (in a way) only gone up 5pts. Wings, were similarly, a must-take and are MUCH cheaper than similar options for other DP's such as Tyrants and Dreadknights.
Let me put it like this, which is how IN MY OPINION it works out:
- Are Daemon Princes still competitive/usable? Yes.
- Are Daemon Princes still a must-have? No.
- Are wings still a viable option? Yes.
- Are wings a must have? No.
- Does my Daemon Prince still die to small armies fire? Not bloody likely.
- Can I give my Daemon Prince grenades (equivalent), a 2+ save against Missile Launchers, a 4++, Feel No Pain, greater close combat potential? Yes.

As I said, that's IMHO what it is like with the DP now; they're an investment rather than auto-take. They are still worth taking and provide a real punch, but they aren't the must-take they were and now they have options too. Of course, correct me if I'm wrong to believe this.

And demon weapons ... yeah those are way to expensive. 45 and 50 points for a lord and DP? They still bite you in the butt, and this time you get no save for the wound. That means your demon weapon will take a wound off once per game on average. At least you still get to attack, but you lose all bonuses from the weapon. So I assume you just attack with a CC weapon? That definitely needs a points drop. They are overcosted in the current codex and overcosted in this one.

Daemon Weapons are now better and only 5pts more expensive IIRC. Yes, you lose bonuses (although Prince still ignore saves), but they also add some really lethal potential.
For 30pts, you can get a relic blade (considered a good weapon). For these 15pts extra the player gains +D6 attacks but also the ability to hurt themselves. Other Daemon Weapons can do nasty things too, such as MoK being just as deadly, but less self-harmy... Admittedly, I'll take them down to 40pts as I agree that 15pts is a bit much for the attacks but also self-harm.
For Daemon Princes, this is a very tricky one to balance. Whilst they don't gain the power weapon, they benefit A LOT from the additional attacks and abilities, hence their cost. Originally I had them at the same price, but after feedback from a reliable Dakka user, I upped the cost.

Lets see. Termies got better with Stubborn, which they need since they lost Fearless. Possessed got a LOT better. I like your ability table and the effect of marks on them. Dreadnoughts are still crazy but you at least specify an enemy unit under the Crazed result. And hey, there's a non-crazy Dred. Cool. Chosen are still awesome, and have even more skills to choose from.

Oh, moving Fabius to Elites is a good idea. He makes a pretty bad HQ in my opinion. Not much of a fighter. The enhanced warriors get +1 T. Sweet.
I kind of glanced over the Warcoven, so I will refrain from commenting on that.


Under troops we still have Cult units, CSM, and now heretics and operatives. It all looks pretty good. Noise marines all get sonic blasters now, which I agree with. The blast master may be 5 points over priced at 30 points. I'm not sure. Berzerkers now have counter attack (Like space wolves!). And yay there are cultists! And there are Better Cultists!

Cracking.
Noise Marines' Sonic Blaster is also better and cheaper I may add, whilst Zerkers are more expensive but better.
I originally had the Blast Master at 25pts, but with up to 6, Str6 shots at AP4 and pinning; it's a very powerful weapon and IIRC superior to an autocannon against tanks. I MAY take it bake down to 25pts, I'm not sure yet.

Under fast attack, bikes look pretty good. I laughed when I first read Hit and Run Over. Raptors are a big disappointment. There's just nothing chaos about them besides marks. No option for demonic visage or hit and run? They glorified assault marines, which I think is wrong.

Glad someone else likes hit and run over!
For the Raptors, they are 2pts cheaper each and can now equip power weapons on the standard guy, whilst Marks are freakin' nasty. For 200pts you get 40 attacks on the charge, which can then be increased to add power weapons and a champion.
I admit, they're not particularly chaos-y, but someone play-tested with H&R and found it too good, whilst I don't really see the need for H&R or visage personally. I think they're fine game-wise, but I may consider visage. Then again; this then increases their cost!

Spawn looked really good until I realized two things. First, they are Mindless which is like Slow and Purposeful, except worse. Second, they are infantry instead of beasts. Really, why put such a slow unit in Fast Attack? It just doesn't make sense. Otherwise they have nice stats and the effects of the marks are good too.

To be fair, they're fleet too, but yes, they're not that fast. Then again, they have a 1/12 chance of mindless taking effect and being cheaper with better stats, as well as more able to get close to the enemy, I think they're not that bad. I think Beasts is too much, particularly with how they can emerge from power of chaos. Sorcerers can also teleport them up the field too.

Then in heavy, we have Havocs. They are basically just devastators with icons. An option for veteran skills would be nice, but people would probably scream OP at tank hunting Havocs (with autocannons of course). Oblits look pretty good. They got a price increase but got a nice ability too. I still miss the T5 Oblits myself. I hate losing them to lascannons and melta guns in one shot.

I really like the Land Raider Marauder, and the LR got back its machine spirit. Vindi and Pred are just copies of the loyalist versions with option for demonic possession, nothing to write home about. Um ... I think that's it for heavy. I may have missed something.

Predators and Defilers have more options also. I agree that Veteran skills would be too good with Havocs though.

Then for demons. The lesser demons look pretty good. You managed to fit horrors, bloodletters, demonettes, and plaguebearers in one entry and did a decent job of it. They still need icons. Greater demons have to possess a champion or character still. That never made since to me fluff-wise, but oh well. My one big complaint here is that the Bloodletter and Lord of Change DON'T HAVE WINGS! Seriously.

Yep, very seriously.
What are the balancing factors for existing C:CSM greater Daemons: Lack of mobility, requires a sacrifice.
What are the balancing factors for existing C:CD Greater Daemons: expensive, must weather a turn of shooting.

To represent their wings I have granted fleet to these two, but with their own stats and method of arrival I believe wings would be too much. They can arrive very close to the enemy, without being shot and able to charge. If they had wings, then they would also have mobility which would make them far too good IMHO. These are some of the problems with potentially a straight port from the Daemons Codex.

That about wraps it up. No, wait, it doesn't. I just remembered there was a flier in the fast attack section. It looked good. The selection of bombs is nice. Hm, oh and I liked the Gift of Chaos table. Nice and random with a possibility of a big power boost, and only 5 points.

Glad someone else likes Gift of the Gods; probably my favourite item.

And two more things: Visions of Chaos and the new Demonic Visage. Visions of Chaos needs to be something that works all the time. Look at the other races psychic defenses. Psychic hoods, Runes of Warding, Shadow in the Warp, and ... that's about it. Oh yeah the Dark Eldar have a one shot thing that probably won't work because you have to fail a leadership test.

Anyway, the majority of psychic defense work all the time, without tests. Anything you give to Chaos ought to be like that. Most sorcerers can only use one power a turn, why bother using Visions of Chaos instead of something like Warptime or the new and improved Doombolt? The only time I see using Visions is if I'm running Ahriman or a Tzeentch Psyker and I have that extra psychic test to spare. Usually I don't. I'd rather use Warp Time plus a shooting attack I think.

I can understand your qualm regarding Visions and having it as a constant ability is an idea if potentially too powerful. Sorcerers now have a Warp Mask which causes a perils attack on any enemy failed leadership test within 24" - a method of (aggressive) psychic defence. Combine this with Visions of Chaos and it's pretty damn deadly IMHO. I will definitely think about visions however. Also, Familiars can provide extra ability to cast - akin to Ahriman or MoT.

And Demonic Visage only works if your opponent falls a leadership test. Which means it will almost never work. It's a dead ability.

Originally Visage caused WS1 on a failed Ld test, but that was perceived as too powerful, hence it's current state. Nonetheless, whilst many units are Fearless these days, I wouldn't say it was quite 'dead'; it also works very well with a Shadow Lord. I may change it to -1 Ld for taking the test however.

Ok, I think that's all. I may have skipped some stuff entirely, but I covered most of what I wanted. Overall I like the codex. It just has some niggling bits I disagree with. If this were released as the next chaos codex right now, I would feel slightly disappointed. Mainly at what I think are unwarranted price increases on the characters. But I would be pretty happy with most of the other stuff.

Honestly, I'm amazed that you'd feel slightly disappointed considering it's changes to the existing 'dex, maybe that's because I'm not too concerned about the characters pricing. Nonetheless, thank you for the feedback; it's very helpful and something for me to think about and I appreciate you also highlighting positives and providing reasoning.

A few more things.

A standard lord is 90 points. But I see you gave lords 4 attacks base, so that's where the extra 10 points come from. I think you mean for Kharn to have a chain axe? The codex does not specify that Gorechild is a chain axe, but you mentioned him re-rolling 1's to wound.

I noticed Sorcerers don't come with invuls. GASP. But they do come with warp masks. I see what you did there.

I finally looked at the Thousand Son Coven. Looks pretty good. With the free tomes they have the potential to be very devastating. Though I think I would just give them all a psychic power and go for suppa psychic overload. Then I double checked Rubric marines and WHOA they don't have invuls either. Looks like you want them to be a ranged unit definitely. The invuls they have now give them some ability to do well in close combat, or at least not die so fast. And the Aspiring Sorcerers don't have force weapons? Understandable, though one time I killed the Avatar with an Aspiring Sorc's force weapon ... good times.

Another thing about the warcoven, and units of psykers in general. Are we supposed to roll all the psychic tests individually? That sounds time consuming, but it would be a lot of Warpflare shots if all 9 sorcerers used Warpflare in the shooting phase.

I didn't notice the raptors ability to take extra power weapons before. That's pretty nice for an assault unit.

So for spawn, they are mindless, but they still assault 6" without rolling right? Do you intend for them to have fleet as well? You mentioned they fleet in your post.

I gotta say I like the warp cannon. It's nice and powerful with the potential to kill a land raider.

Back to demons, do you think demonettes rending against vehicles is too powerful? Also noticed the lack of power weapons on blood letters.

I think you could lower the point costs of horrors and plague bearers. Plaguebearers lose the ability to wound on a 4+ and have lower toughness. And horrors have a worse save and a worse gun then in the demon codex . Though I think they are toughness 3 in the demon codex.

Back to GD's, I still feel underwhelmed by the Blood Thirster, compared to the others with their free psychic powers and no Perils. Maybe the Thirster could get armor? Or +1 strength?

Oh, and I like the options for the defiler. Especially the mark of Khorne version. (Go World Eaters!)

I read the part about the vindicare's special bullet and am still confused. Do you mean a vindicare can strip the mark of Tzeentch off of a model?

Hmmmm
point of note

Correct me if im wrong but do not the summoned deamons from codex csm still have to weather a turn of shooting?

So this brings thier "balancing" factors to....
Lack of Mobility
Must weather a turn of shooting
and for the greater Daemons requires a sacrifice

I think one of these should be eliminateed because as you have so eloqently put the C CD Daemons only have two balancing factors. As Daemons are in the current codex i wouldnt take them, as they are in this one i would shy away even more well maybe not the lesser Daemons but definitly the greater, I value my Asp. Champs to much

codex csm lesser and greater daemons can assault the turn they come in. Only reason why they can be decent, really.

oky doky

i just wasnt sure about JD's version cause ive been stung for charging after summon with my GW codex csm Daemons

EW for Typhus, please? You mean to tell me that some no-name Lone Wolf who WANTS to die cna have Eternal Warrior but the damn Herald of Nurgle can still be insta-killed?! But yeah, making him straight T5 goes a long way! If MoN changes the base toguhness to 5 instead of 4(5), then that'll make Nurgle Lords as durable as they SHOULD be-hell, a Nurgle Lord on a bike, T5(6)... <3

Also, you have the Hell talon in there; why not the Hell Blade? Make it 1-3 or 1-5, maybe slightly reduced cost (they've been around for a while now), new weapon options (replace the two twin-linked autocannons wiht a TL multi-melta, TL lascannon, TL plasmacannon, a pair of hurricane bolters, etc.)? The Spehss Muhreens get Stormravens, the Dark Eldar get the Razorwing, the Imperial Guard ge tthe Valkyrie...give Chaos it's own fighter, the one that was designed to hunt down other aircraft! The Locust (a fan-made vehicle) would be interesting as well, has three underslung lascannons.

Kepora wrote:EW for Typhus, please? You mean to tell me that some no-name Lone Wolf who WANTS to die cna have Eternal Warrior but the damn Herald of Nurgle can still be insta-killed?! But yeah, making him straight T5 goes a long way! If MoN changes the base toguhness to 5 instead of 4(5), then that'll make Nurgle Lords as durable as they SHOULD be-hell, a Nurgle Lord on a bike, T5(6)... <3

I was a little surprised so see that Typhus and Ahriman don't have Eternal Warrior. They've been around a LONG time and seen their far share of battles.

Noisy_Marine wrote:

Kepora wrote:EW for Typhus, please? You mean to tell me that some no-name Lone Wolf who WANTS to die cna have Eternal Warrior but the damn Herald of Nurgle can still be insta-killed?! But yeah, making him straight T5 goes a long way! If MoN changes the base toguhness to 5 instead of 4(5), then that'll make Nurgle Lords as durable as they SHOULD be-hell, a Nurgle Lord on a bike, T5(6)... <3

I was a little surprised so see that Typhus and Ahriman don't have Eternal Warrior. They've been around a LONG time and seen their far share of battles.

DEFINITELY Ahriman. Also, I edited in suggestions for the Hell Blade seeing as the Talon's already in, and it wouldn't be broken seeing as other races have fliers now.

So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(

It seems that almost all the old time chaos SC should have EW!

ZephyrRey wrote:So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(

I'm interested in this. I want to see how they do without invul saves.

ZephyrRey wrote:So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(

Haven't you guys ever heard of Plasma Rifles? or Krak Missiles? Or better yet, Demolisher/Battle Cannons? That's what the invul was for, because everyone nowadays has fucktons of those.

Kepora wrote:

ZephyrRey wrote:So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(

Haven't you guys ever heard of Plasma Rifles? or Krak Missiles? Or better yet, Demolisher/Battle Cannons? That's what the invul was for, because everyone nowadays has fucktons of those.

Goodluck with that in a necron or a daemon's codex. Not everyone has that luxury, so don't need to be a prick about it. When you have one monolith or little to no shooting at all, it kinda sucks.

Noisy_Marine wrote:A standard lord is 90 points. But I see you gave lords 4 attacks base, so that's where the extra 10 points come from. I think you mean for Kharn to have a chain axe? The codex does not specify that Gorechild is a chain axe, but you mentioned him re-rolling 1's to wound.

Yeah, well they have the exact same stats as a Wolf Lord but with Fearless & 5++ too.
Regarding the Chain Axe/Gorechild, I realised when responding to you that being a chain-axe, Gorechild should re-roll 1's to wound as well, which you'll find in the latest version in the OP as well as slightly edited points cost on Abby and Lucius, as per your feedback.

I finally looked at the Thousand Son Coven. Looks pretty good. With the free tomes they have the potential to be very devastating. Though I think I would just give them all a psychic power and go for suppa psychic overload. Then I double checked Rubric marines and WHOA they don't have invuls either. Looks like you want them to be a ranged unit definitely. The invuls they have now give them some ability to do well in close combat, or at least not die so fast. And the Aspiring Sorcerers don't have force weapons? Understandable, though one time I killed the Avatar with an Aspiring Sorc's force weapon ... good times.

Yeah, I think the Coven can be very hard hitting, but not cheap or particularly tough and prone to killing itself, which makes powers & tomes or just powers a difficult decision. However, with his tomes Ahriman can kick some ass which he should at >200pts.
Regarding the Rubric Marines; I (and many others) believed that a 5++ gave them very little benefit in close combat; with 1 attack they aren't going to do much damage in return whilst a 5++ only benefits them slightly against power weapons however they'd die to any elite unit in CC.
Regarding the Force Weapon; I decided to make it an optional extra and the sorcerer cheaper; you can still insta-kill an Avatar on a rare occasion and for less pts than before.

Another thing about the warcoven, and units of psykers in general. Are we supposed to roll all the psychic tests individually? That sounds time consuming, but it would be a lot of Warpflare shots if all 9 sorcerers used Warpflare in the shooting phase.

The rule in their entry states that they cast it individually, but at the same target. Regarding other units of psykers, I don't know. No others exist in this 'dex at-least...

I gotta say I like the warp cannon. It's nice and powerful with the potential to kill a land raider.

Cheers, I'm a fan too, it's kind of a cross between a psycannon and assault cannon I find. Very hard hitting, but unreliable.

Back to demons, do you think demonettes rending against vehicles is too powerful? Also noticed the lack of power weapons on blood letters.

Yeah, I believed both of those would be too powerful, particularly (with the latter especially) with the summoning rules delivering them straight into CC.
For 5pts you still get:
A) Fleet, Rending vs. Infantry & +1 initiative
B) +1WS, +1 Attack & Furious Charge.
Both of which I think are pretty good deals.

I think you could lower the point costs of horrors and plague bearers. Plaguebearers lose the ability to wound on a 4+ and have lower toughness. And horrors have a worse save and a worse gun then in the demon codex . Though I think they are toughness 3 in the demon codex.

Remember they gain the benefits of the marks too, so they have the same toughness and save as the Daemons Codex respectively. Does that make it sound better to you?

Back to GD's, I still feel underwhelmed by the Blood Thirster, compared to the others with their free psychic powers and no Perils. Maybe the Thirster could get armor? Or +1 strength?

Tbh, I wasn't sure about the bloodthirster either. However, I don't think armour would suit him whilst +1 strength could potentially make him tougher than the Daemon Codex version? I have considered preferred enemy or just 35pts?

Oh, and I like the options for the defiler. Especially the mark of Khorne version. (Go World Eaters!)

Good good! And to think, you struck me as a Slaanesh man...
I assume if you haven't commented further on your previous points that you've understood my reasoning/decision making?

I read the part about the vindicare's special bullet and am still confused. Do you mean a vindicare can strip the mark of Tzeentch off of a model?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Vindicare can remove invulnerable saves caused by a piece of wargear. Hence, the MoT doesn't count as being wargear and therefore cannot be removed, no?

Kepora wrote:EW for Typhus, please? You mean to tell me that some no-name Lone Wolf who WANTS to die cna have Eternal Warrior but the damn Herald of Nurgle can still be insta-killed?! But yeah, making him straight T5 goes a long way!

The Lone Wolf has it for game-balance reasons; it'd be a useless choice if it could be insta-killed.
With a base toughness of 5, as you mentioned, Typhus cannot only be insta-killed by very few weapons in the game. This, therefore contributes to less of a need for EW.
I get the impression that much of the reasoning for wanting EW is how long him & Ahriman has been around? Therefore, whether intentionally or not Kenshin has somewhat answered this with his comment of "It seems that almost all the old time chaos SC should have EW!". I don't want to give EW to every character in the Codex and by the reasoning of "They've been around a LONG time" Fabius and Cypher should surely have it too. My reasoning is, none of these other characters need or and don't warrant it as much. Both Kharn and Lucius have pretty much literally died at least once each, furthermore, these are both very in-your-face characters who need it more than say Ahriman would (who should really be kept out of most EW-warranting situations).
I am definitely not adding EW to Ahriman, Cyphus and Fabius at the very least for these reasons.

Also, you have the Hell talon in there; why not the Hell Blade? Make it 1-3 or 1-5, maybe slightly reduced cost (they've been around for a while now), new weapon options (replace the two twin-linked autocannons wiht a TL multi-melta, TL lascannon, TL plasmacannon, a pair of hurricane bolters, etc.)? The Spehss Muhreens get Stormravens, the Dark Eldar get the Razorwing, the Imperial Guard ge tthe Valkyrie...give Chaos it's own fighter, the one that was designed to hunt down other aircraft! The Locust (a fan-made vehicle) would be interesting as well, has three underslung lascannons.

Multiple reasons for this too:
- The Hell Blade is used primarily for intercepting other aircraft AFAIK; whereas 40K is a game of typically ground targets; hence the bomber.
- The Hell Blade wouldn't really add anything new IMHO; fitting into the very small gap of difference between a Pred's and Hell Talon's roles.

ZephyrRey wrote:So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(

Cracking! I look forward to hearing more about it man. They are a unit which I'm interested in finding out how they've done. Even moreso as you've got a typically CC list!
I have also been told about a foot-slog Death Guard list taken to a small tournament too and I'll ask the person about telling others of the results...

Thanks for all feedback as ever.


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ZephyrRey wrote:

Kepora wrote:

ZephyrRey wrote:So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(

Haven't you guys ever heard of Plasma Rifles? or Krak Missiles? Or better yet, Demolisher/Battle Cannons? That's what the invul was for, because everyone nowadays has fucktons of those.

Goodluck with that in a necron or a daemon's codex. Not everyone has that luxury, so don't need to be a prick about it. When you have one monolith or little to no shooting at all, it kinda sucks.

That and the aforementioned weapons may be directed at other targets such as tanks/princes/termies surely?

Well, I'll write up the batreps after my shift volunteering, but the first one was pretty much like this: (crons vs ksons) 500 points of mine dies first turn to a mishap. woo. Then i wreck rhinos super easy, and then struggle to kill contents.

Daemons was pretty much a scrim for troops. We actually had a problem with Gift of the Gods in that game:

It states the guy turns into a psyker, who can use one psychic power a turn. Does he have all of the psychic powers? That's how we played it, but is that how you intended it?


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Here ya go dave, as of now it's just the necron report, daemons'll go up tomorrow at some point, I'll letchu know.

Well, I disagree with you on the Hell Blades; they fulfill a similar role as a Predator, yes, but they fulfill a totally different army slot-which makes a HUGE difference in armies like Iron Warriors (yes, my preferred army ). And yes, they hunt down fighters-which the Valkyrie and the Eldar vehicles the DE oens are based on were before THEY were made into codex units, the Storm Raven is essentially a Space Marine fighter, and on top of that the Hell Talon has little to no AA capability, being an almost purely dedicated bomber-whereas Hell Blade(s) hunt down enemy aircraft, as well as tanks and infantry foolish enoguh to get out of cover for long enough Plus is just doesn't make much sense to have the bomber wihtout it's escorts (which are actually affordable to most 40k players! )


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Also: 15-man squad caps? Why not even it out at 20?

Hey, fine piece of work you made there mate:

some small things i would feel op or underwhelming (im a 1K sons player so only commenting on these):

No psychic hood, sorry but this makes the codex uncompetive for anyone using psychic powers.

Warpmask is underwhelming, i would consider following:
Ldship test failed, psychic attack, further more, within 12" of the bearer, psykers suffer -2ldshp on their test, and within 24 -1, that would at least give you an equal edge against the abundance of hoods and rune weapons....

Obliterators are to powerfull: taking 2 TL plasmaguns will murder anything within 12 inch, with a squad of 3 that would be 12 plasmashots...

I do like however what you did with the psychic powers, neat.

1k sons i still think that they are crap with a big C, they are not worth 23 points under this rules, heck i prefer the old ones... if you leave them at this point lvl let them take special weapons...
the sorcerer however is correctly costed, gift of the gods...wtf roll of a 5 he becomes a sorcerer??? you made exception for khorne, there should be one for him to

warcoven is wellthought,fluffy and fun.

Deamons, why not simply use horrors,flamers,screamers and lord of change if your leader is a Mark of Tzeentch dude...

So maybe some harsh comments, but i still feel 1K sons are severely underwhelming to use.

ZephyrRey wrote:Well, I'll write up the batreps after my shift volunteering, but the first one was pretty much like this: (crons vs ksons) 500 points of mine dies first turn to a mishap. woo. Then i wreck rhinos super easy, and then struggle to kill contents.

Daemons was pretty much a scrim for troops. We actually had a problem with Gift of the Gods in that game:

It states the guy turns into a psyker, who can use one psychic power a turn. Does he have all of the psychic powers? That's how we played it, but is that how you intended it?


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Here ya go dave, as of now it's just the necron report, daemons'll go up tomorrow at some point, I'll letchu know.

Cracking. Cheers man! Love that you're still doing the reports. Honestly however, I'm not too sure how much I can gather from the Necron bat-rep due to Necrons being such a weak army (although you & your opponent did agree on some improvements which was nice to see) and you loosing 500pts in the 1st turn!
However, it seemed like a pretty good game and I don't know about you but it seemed fairly balanced to me? Look forward to the Daemons one too man! Thanks again Rey, really appreciate the feedback man.
Regarding the Psyker/GotG, I'll edit that in the 'dex, but my intentions would be for him to select a single PP...

Kepora wrote:Well, I disagree with you on the Hell Blades; they fulfill a similar role as a Predator, yes, but they fulfill a totally different army slot-which makes a HUGE difference in armies like Iron Warriors (yes, my preferred army ). And yes, they hunt down fighters-which the Valkyrie and the Eldar vehicles the DE oens are based on were before THEY were made into codex units, the Storm Raven is essentially a Space Marine fighter, and on top of that the Hell Talon has little to no AA capability, being an almost purely dedicated bomber-whereas Hell Blade(s) hunt down enemy aircraft, as well as tanks and infantry foolish enoguh to get out of cover for long enough Plus is just doesn't make much sense to have the bomber wihtout it's escorts (which are actually affordable to most 40k players! )


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Also: 15-man squad caps? Why not even it out at 20?

15-man fits perfectly inside the Marauder, whilst is a more reasonable squad size considering I can't imagine CSM's running around in overly large squads of guys when 2 separate squads is more effective. Finally, I've never heard of anyone using 20-man squads.

Yes, but the Hell-talons fulfil a similar role also and would be in the same slot as Hell Blades; which are used for incepting aircraft. Less than half the codices include fliers and the game itself focuses on ground-troops, which defeats the by-far main role of the Hell Blade. The only 'fighter' in any of the existing 40K codices is the Razorwing; Stormravens are primarly transports, whilst the Voidraven is a bomber.
Honestly, I currently have no intention to include a Hell-blade, I don't feel it's needed gameplay-wise or fluff-wise IMHO.

Valek wrote:Hey, fine piece of work you made there mate:

Thanks man.

No psychic hood, sorry but this makes the codex uncompetive for anyone using psychic powers.

Warpmask is underwhelming, i would consider following:
Ldship test failed, psychic attack, further more, within 12" of the bearer, psykers suffer -2ldshp on their test, and within 24 -1, that would at least give you an equal edge against the abundance of hoods and rune weapons....

That's a far point man; I'll look into making the Warpmask better; although the -1 Ld thing could be too good combined with things such as Shadow Lord and Visions of Chaos, I may increase the range or also grant it a 5+ nullification on top of the existing effect...

Obliterators are to powerfull: taking 2 TL plasmaguns will murder anything within 12 inch, with a squad of 3 that would be 12 plasmashots...

That may be true, although this would leave the Oblits vulnerable as they'd be within 12" (likely through deepstrike), without a CCW and they're no tougher than they currently are but are more expensive. At 240pts I don't think 12 plasma shots is unreasonable personally?

I do like however what you did with the psychic powers, neat.

Cheers.

1k sons i still think that they are crap with a big C, they are not worth 23 points under this rules, heck i prefer the old ones... if you leave them at this point lvl let them take special weapons...
the sorcerer however is correctly costed, gift of the gods...wtf roll of a 5 he becomes a sorcerer??? you made exception for khorne, there should be one for him to

I'm surprised by this; the 5++ is very situational whilst the re-roll 3+ is very effective against small arms, which they're supposed to be very durable against in the fluff. They're now relentless too, meaning they have better range, they have grenades and their sorcerer is cheaper and better. I admit, I too have been wondering of late if they're worth 23pts, I may re-add their 5++ (but not re-rollable) on top of their current rules though.
Regarding the GotG; I'm now about to edit that entry to clarify ZephyrRey's earlier comments, but this would give him an additional power and cast 2-per-turn.

warcoven is wellthought,fluffy and fun.

Cracking. Cheers.

Deamons, why not simply use horrors,flamers,screamers and lord of change if your leader is a Mark of Tzeentch dude...

I don't understand this? If you're wondering why I don't simply include the entries from C then there's been lots of discussion of this in the past, but my viewpoint has always been (and others appear to agree) that this would simply be too powerful.

So maybe some harsh comments, but i still feel 1K sons are severely underwhelming to use.

It's all-right, you included some positive feedback too which makes me more willing to listen to your opinion!

Hmmm. fair enoguh points on the Hell Blade VS. Hell Talon. I will make one final argument, though:

Hell Blade: £49 = $79.9251
Hell Talon: £97 = $158.206!

Not to mention the Blade could be given some new weapon options, and the fact the Hell Talon is BIG.

....and I scored a pair of HBs cheap that're just collecting dust XD

I would not search that far, take 1K sons as they are now in chaos codex, add grenades and make sorcerer cost 15 points extra, 10 points for upgrade powerw to forcew,
1 power, and may cast two powers, autopass ldshp due to tzeentch. that is perfect and not overpowered.
Even if he would come in on his own and only makes entrance through deepstrike in turn 2 he would not be overpowered, ofc again a 0-1 choice
Additionally i would consider psychic hood for sorcerer lords, and surely for Ahriman, the guy was the chieflibrarian, it's not that he threw it away no?


On the deamon thing, i feel that not having your deamons is unfluffy and crappy, i do not see a lord of change would be op considering he even cost 35 points min more as you need to summon him out of a champ. Horrors are fine as are flamers and screamers, you could even limit packs of flamers and screamers to 0-1.

The moment he starts adding real daemons into this codex is the moment that it is no longer a fandex for codex Chaos Space MARINES and starts being a fandex for Forces of Chaos. This was clearly not his intention, and so pushing that issue is just, in my view, imbecilic. It is akin to saying that the current daemons codex is underpowered and unfluffy because you can't take heretics or marines with them; it isn't what the codex is for.

And Dave, no problems on the battle reports, when I play a game, it makes it take all of five minutes longer at worst to write down the occurrences, and then in my boring spare time I can write them up. So you can probably expect more (before I go to back to college, that is)